Announcement

**neighbortaru** · 08-22-2005, 09:50 AM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

or you could just do ballista for xp and forget all that hassle.

**Zempten** · 08-22-2005, 10:35 AM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Or add pulling to your duties

**Altae** · 08-22-2005, 02:31 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

I used to be like that, a year ago when I stopped playing. "Gosh RDM is soooo tedious! Omg, I have to refresh 4 times! What? Haste ALL the Melees?" But when I came back, thanks to the Return-Home Campaign, I got my character back and could experience the new EXP system. In my opinion, you're giving up too easily. Right now, my RDM is 71 @28000 for level up. To fulfill a 28000 exp gain, that would take some 9 hours. With an excellent PT of course. So... thats almost 3 hours a day. With a little hope and dilligent thinking, you could level up in no time.... It's like a surprise kinda thing. RDM may not seem so great to play now, but at level 74-75 things begin to turn in your favor.

And with the RDM/WAR thing, You could actually use that on VTs. Like Boyahda Tree Crabs. They'll give 100+EXP(possibly) and you could kill them in some 5-7minutes. There are also some EM-Ts in Castle Zvhal, on the way to shadowlord. But it sounds like you want to play a major melee based job, without having to raise another job to level 68-70.

**ifandbut** · 08-22-2005, 06:49 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Originally posted by Altae

But it sounds like you want to play a major melee based job, without having to raise another job to level 68-70.

In fact my next job to 75 will proubly be WAR, I just dont want to waist all the xp that I'v gained on RDM so far.

**Hyrist** · 08-22-2005, 07:50 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Well I am sorry to say it will be quite a few more months before I releace my guide pretaining to RDM Hybrid Stragity. I have alot of bugs to work out, Phazers to do, Jobs to level, Screenshots, Website Programming... the works. But keep hope, if my theory is correct, there will be a way for RDM to be cappible of meleeing from level 1-75, though through roundabout methods.

Of course this dosent include endgame activites. Those I fully agree with backline methods. But if all goes well rdms will have well more than one main path to go for their job, opening up some new entertaining methods for the job.

At least thats what I am hoping to accomplish here.

**Icemage** · 08-22-2005, 10:30 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

RDM kill things by outlasting them, not by their abundance of offense. Duo RDMs is a really bad idea, unless you like earning 800 XP per hour. RDMs can't handle much of anything above Tough safely (sometimes low VTs if you're /NIN).

Icemage

**Kilgraw** · 08-23-2005, 03:41 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

I like duoing with THF.

**ifandbut** · 08-24-2005, 06:56 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Hyrist, I know you'v taken alot of flack on these boards because of your ideas but I am verry intrested in a leveling path other then the post-41 refresh whore that we have now. Can I get a ETA? ^^

Icemage, do you have any sugestions on mobs that I could xp on at 69/70 solo while still earning decent xp (1-2k/hr) either useing the Sleep-Nuke-Sleep method with BLM SJ or Meleeing them to death with different SJs?

I died last night Soloing T and VT birds in sky because it was Ice day and my Aero 3s keept doing like 200 DMG then finaly one of my Sleeps did not stick and I was screwed.

**Hyrist** · 08-24-2005, 08:31 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

I'll start out with a few disclaimers.

First its still in the exprimental stage, I have 2 other higher level red mages testing out stragities on this and eaking out some very hard problems to solve, least of which is aquiering the proper combination of INT and Darkness + skill to get the best Mage wind out of /drk, which happens to be the stage you are at now, the final and what I think to be the most fun stage of the Hybrid Style RDM.... but its by far the hardest as well.

It is VERY expensive and time consuming to comit to the higher end of melee gear and to pratice the stragity. I'll step you through on a few essentials to get if you are going to do this properly. We can use this tread as a template so people can see and comment, or you can switch to PM, I dont mind either.

Anyways, first things to get your hands on, is a Killer Mantle (Let Sleeping Dogs lie BCNM30 drop) a Dark Earring (ENM Dem drop) and an Darkness Torch (Quested, not sure where)

All of these items could be found in the auction house if you are lucky, and together will add +15 Darkness skill to your asenal. If you already have Crimsom Finger Gauntlets thats another +10, if not, dont worry too much, you cant use it till 73 anyways.

If you got enough CoP quests done you can get your Subligar JSE, which adds another +3, but that could be a little anal retentive. We'll see how things work out before we decided we need it or not.

I shouldent have to say this at this stage, but make sure you have ALL your gobbie bag quests done. All your mog expansions woudlent hurt either. You will be streaching your inventory to the max here.

That should give you enough to start on. Right now I was lucky enough to make a good deal to get myself a Scorpion Harness +1 crafted for me, but its going to cost me about 9-10 million total. And I am 57.

I've got alot of mining to do

**Zempten** · 08-24-2005, 08:53 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

3 WARs, 1 RDM, 1 BRD, 1 WHM , Kuftal Tunnel

No need for refresh
WHM hardly uses any MP but for some Cures, Status Cures, and Nuking; BRD is enough
RDM runs around pulling tigers, cockatrices, and the Ladon - you get to nuke as well

This is what gave me a rejuvination at 70+

**Icemage** · 08-25-2005, 01:39 AM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Originally posted by ifandbut

Icemage, do you have any sugestions on mobs that I could xp on at 69/70 solo while still earning decent xp (1-2k/hr) either useing the Sleep-Nuke-Sleep method with BLM SJ or Meleeing them to death with different SJs?

I died last night Soloing T and VT birds in sky because it was Ice day and my Aero 3s keept doing like 200 DMG then finaly one of my Sleeps did not stick and I was screwed.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think you can make anything better than 1K per hour as solo RDM before level 74. You can kill at best around 6 even match enemies (and I'm giving benefit of the doubt here), which is 600XP per hour, roughly 1 enemy per convert cycle. You can try for harder than EM, but as you noticed, failing a Sleep generally means messy death and a lot of wasted effort.

---

Re: Hyrist why the focus on Dark Magic skill? The only Dark magic spells you get as RDM/DRK that you wouldn't already have as RDM (Bio, Bio II) are:

Drain at 20/10: Not especially useful, though I suppose you could use it to help recover from Convert (risky, since you generally don't want to pick up more enmity than necessary. See my note below about Aspir). It IS very efficient damage however.

Aspir at 40/20: DRK get this spell earlier than BLM, so this is actually a valid choice in the 40-50 range even for pure-caster RDMs.

Absorb-MND at 62/31: Arguably the most useful absorb for RDMs since it'll make sticking Paralyze and Slow easier.. on the minus side it costs 33MP to make spells which already have a pretty good stick rate more effective. If I understand your concept correctly, this isn't why you're championing /DRK anyway, since you want to focus on the melee end...

Absorb-CHR at 66/33: Yeah, right.

Absorb-VIT at 70/35: Useful in its own way, but by level 70 you have access to a significant arsenal of tier III attack spells. Good if you're in a melee-heavy party, I suppose, but still takes time and MP to cast.

Absorb-AGI at 74/37: This will help melee accuracy slightly, but by the time you get it, there are so few IT enemies left to fight for XP that accuracy stops being much of an issue for front-line melees. It might help your own accuracy as RDM/DRK, but I don't know that the time and MP spent on the chance of this spell landing are a fair tradeoff.

Stun at 74/37: This is the main reason most high level RDMs use /DRK sometimes. Even so, you DON'T need much dark magic skill to make this spell do what it's supposed to. Stun is very rarely resisted by anything not strong to lightning magic.

The main question on my mind is how often do Absorb spells stick without a Dark/Pluto staff to back them up? I see main job DRKs get resisted quite often, even with their A-rank Dark Magic skill, and while boosting RDM's Dark Magic will close this gap slightly, there is still a significant gap.

I could definitely see a case for using /DRK as a caster subjob, but I'm still puzzled as to how that might apply in a melee configuration. RDMs lose a lot of potential combat time casting spells (Refresh, Slow, Paralyze, Dispel, not counting MB or cures), and that's really where the problem with RDM melee comes into play. Boosting your accuracy and/or attack is all fine and dandy, but what difference does it make if you only take half a dozen swings per fight, and what price will you pay from the magic effectiveness side of the equation to do so?

Icemage

**Hyrist** · 08-25-2005, 10:02 AM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Absorb-MND at 62/31: Arguably the most useful absorb for RDMs since it'll make sticking Paralyze and Slow easier.. on the minus side it costs 33MP to make spells which already have a pretty good stick rate more effective. If I understand your concept correctly, this isn't why you're championing /DRK anyway, since you want to focus on the melee end...

Actially, this was the deciding factor in starting my entire Hybrid Style RDM campaign This spell, in the hands of a RDM provides a differance of 24-30 mnd for our MND based equasions to feed on, at a cost thats only 8 mp more than Shock, thats stackable with Shock AND the Dark Knights Absorb MND.

Say you cast Absorb MND and drain 12 mnd from the mob (From tests that seems to be average at 62/31 with INT gear on) Thats 24 (12 from the mob 12 from you) . Add 7 from shock, another 14 from the Darks Absorb MND.

thats + 34~45 MND advantage, given conisteration for the wearing out of Absorb MND. How much do Red Mages pay for mearly 5 MND on a ring nowadays?

The issue on that is, how often can you convince a Dark Knight to cast Absorb MND... in that matter:

Heres a question for you? How often is the A ranked Darkness Skill of a Dark Knight capped? How often does a Dark Knight actually bring Dark Skill+ / Int Gear to the fight?

I've been quizzing several Dark Knights on my server. It seems that Dark Knights as a commonaility really dont utilize the magic part of their job. Subbing it will alow us a later game access to what they dont use to add that to the table. It may cost less than the BLM enfeebles, but it stacks with theirs and adds to our own and stacks as well, A worthwhile cost in my humble opinion. So thats the caster half... which was the thing that actually started this whole thing.

Then I got to thinking about wasted JA's, How much convert ration MP we loose naturally, latent effect gear. And the beginnings of a wild stragity came to mind. That eventually spread in the effort to balance our stats/inventory enough to make both magery and melee work copperatively in an expirence party stragity. Which is what SE origonally designed the class to be, in all games including this one. (/selfishbeleif)

As I was saying before, we will be streaching our inventory to the complete limit here, doubeling our Macro Swap Load as well. I've already worked out a macro system that alows this to be eaiser, but it really taskes a PC to do it my way. I'm still working on how to get the macro set to work well for a PS2

And of course this is all still in the expirmental stage. I have no clue personally how well this is going to work, But I am going to reserve judgment untill I personally have tried it myself. Personally I'm excited, working at this has provided a whole new level of fun to the game, dispite all the flack I get for it. People may try to make a "Melee RDM" stragity, but no one is going thourgh such an undertaking as I am to see this through.

I'm collecting loads of data from expirments on reaching the MND differance Soft-Cap, to Re-assing the Convert ratio.

The main question on my mind is how often do Absorb spells stick without a Dark/Pluto staff to back them up? I see main job DRKs get resisted quite often, even with their A-rank Dark Magic skill, and while boosting RDM's Dark Magic will close this gap slightly, there is still a significant gap.

I've already said my peace about how most Darks really dont keep up or enhanse their Darkness Magic skill, and I also beleive INT is a large factor in the resist rate as well.

About streaching that inventory limit? I've found a deicent number of darkness Skill + items that might help, but I wont know their full effect untill tested on the field. 72+ I also want to filter in Magical Accuracy to this equasion which IMO will really help. Its not potancy, which is why everyone complains it sucks, but if the accuracy works on Absorb MND, you get your added potancy right there, don't you?

I could definitely see a case for using /DRK as a caster subjob, but I'm still puzzled as to how that might apply in a melee configuration. RDMs lose a lot of potential combat time casting spells (Refresh, Slow, Paralyze, Dispel, not counting MB or cures), and that's really where the problem with RDM melee comes into play. Boosting your accuracy and/or attack is all fine and dandy, but what difference does it make if you only take half a dozen swings per fight, and what price will you pay from the magic effectiveness side of the equation to do so?

I'm doing my best to make it so we can have our cake and eat it too here. I wont deny the fact that we might suffer some magical effectivness in this, just from the lack of MP and reduced use of Elemental Staves mostly. But the idea isnt to become an extreemist in either direction, but good enough in both to provide a functional assistance that becomes enjoyable for both the party, and the player, while still providing good amounts of exp.

About the swing timer vrs spell time use argument. You have a choice, you can either cast first and dive in later, or dive in with mage gear swapped on, while casting, get a few swings in while casting, then switch melee on when you are casting the more "Automatic Effect" spells. In the end you average about the same amount of hits in from my expirence so far.

The idea isnt to become a DD melee class, its to use our melee as a utility. Enspells are still our most MP effective means of dealing magical damage Damage/MP wise... and it it takes 5 minutes for us to get TP for a skillchain... all the better /grin. But I wont know all the adjustments of the pratical use untill I catch up in levels. This is why I dont mind ifandbut trying it out ahead. His pratical data will give me issues to work on while I crawl up the levels and scour the databased for items and solutions.

Any support in testing this and providing possible solutions is encouraged. I'm sure most Red Mages would enjoy being able to add a little extra fun and into their exp/merit routine.

In my opinion theres no harm in giving it a full-on effort. Whats there to loose? Time? If I'm enjoying myself while doing the research I dont beleie its wasted. Gil? Most of the items I'll collect will help soloing and any melee jobs I level. Reputation? My friends support me in this, even if some of them dissagree. They WANT to see it happen, even if they beleive it wont. The only reputation hit I get is from people who have such a closed mind that they don't support even the expirmentation. To be honest, I dont want to be around those kind of people anyways.

I want to give this stragity a due effort, and I am having loads of fun doing it. I remain courtious to the players and people who dont wish to be involved in it, so I dont see a problem with researching.

Which me luck! Or help me out! You might have fun taking a dive into it too? Who knows?

**Icemage** · 08-25-2005, 11:41 AM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Actually, I've partied with a handful of DRKs who had capped Dark Magic (a couple of them had it already from XPing BLM or RDM previously, and so didn't have to work too hard to keep it capped). They landed absorbs fairly often, but like RDMs with enfeebles, they also have trouble on VT to IT++ enemies without a lot of help.

I don't think the lack of additional MP is a major sticking point for /DRK. I XP with RDM/BRD and while I do get some MP back from Ballad, it's probably analagous to the MP I'd get from the MP a /DRK would get from Convert.

Regarding enspell damage though... uh... I really have to disagree here. Enspell damage on anything VT+ tends to get highly resisted, even using elements that mobs are nominally weak to. If you're lucky it'll deal 8 damage, otherwise you're looking at 0-4 most of the time. This is not significant, in an XP party environment. I'm still not seeing the payoff in melee damage. It's all I can do to carry 3 sets of gear on RDM (MND, INT, and MP), adding more would make me lose my sanity.

My current XP gear on RDM includes:

Weapons: 8 elemental staves, Crimson Blade
Shields: none
Ammo: Fortune Egg
Head: AF, Trump Crown
Neck: Star Necklace, Promise Badge, Black Silk Neckerchief
Earrings: Moldavite, Enhancing, Bat
Body: AF, Vermillion Cloak
Hands: AF, Devotee's Mitts
Rings: Tamas, Astral, Eremite's+1, Sainty+1
Back: Gramary Cape, Aurora Mantle
Belt: Penitent's Rope, Powerful Rope
Legs: Frog Trousers, AF, Magic Cuisses
Feet: AF

That's already 34 slots taken up in my inventory, requiring 3 different "outfit" macro changes(MP, MND, INT), plus additional gear swaps for Convert itself. Adding melee gear into this mix would require an additional 2 macros, perhaps more, and greatly reduce my efficiency due to the need to use more than 1 macro at a time when "gearing up" for any activity.

Icemage

**Hyrist** · 08-25-2005, 02:42 PM

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

That's already 34 slots taken up in my inventory, requiring 3 different "outfit" macro changes(MP, MND, INT), plus additional gear swaps for Convert itself. Adding melee gear into this mix would require an additional 2 macros, perhaps more, and greatly reduce my efficiency due to the need to use more than 1 macro at a time when "gearing up" for any activity.

Well, you now reaching the first arugments I had to settle upon during my inntial stages of research.

First off, I've reduced the amount of usable elemental Staves from 8 to 5 (4 for me cause I dont use a light staff) The elemental Skill + Use on Ice Staff is more than sufficent for the use of Elemental Staves other than those already covered by our primary Debuffs, which are Ice, Earth, Dark, and Wind. (I personally conister light staff optional because of the difficulty macroing it in and inventory space use coupled agianst a 10% curing potancy that is not very commonly used. But thats just me, I dont reccoment against the use of Light Staff, its my personal prefrence)

Its 2 macros for each major change, weither it is Mage Style or Melee Style on my end, as it requires at least 2 macros to change every slot in your inventory. These are catagorized seperatly between Skill and Stat. (Elemental > Enfeebeling > Dark) (INT, MND) Meleeing gear is 3 swaps total, 2 if main weapon is already equipped. Everything is streamlined well enough that I can litterally change my entire inventory to the approriate stats before Paralize finishes casting, though it can take some fancy fingerwork to start dancing around odd combinations of spells. However, after several months of managing this in mage style before I even conistered doing this for melee, am farily confident that this can be extended to meleeing addionally with minimal disadvantage.

In use of Inventory Space: I am completly cappible of haivng melee and magery gear without filling 55 slots of inventory. Note that this includses some completly unessary equipment that I carry with me for appearance pourposes only (and also as a space saver for addional equipment gained via level up) From what I keep hearing that will become increesingly difficult as the levels progress, however I do still beleive a level of balance can be reached. I've already begun compiling a list of equipment by level and stat for all aspects of a Hybrid RDM and will mull over which equipment goes where for what when as time progresses.

Regarding enspell damage though... uh... I really have to disagree here. Enspell damage on anything VT+ tends to get highly resisted, even using elements that mobs are nominally weak to. If you're lucky it'll deal 8 damage, otherwise you're looking at 0-4 most of the time. This is not significant, in an XP party environment. I'm still not seeing the payoff in melee damage. It's all I can do to carry 3 sets of gear on RDM (MND, INT, and MP), adding more would make me lose my sanity.

If 3 sets stress you out, please oh god dont try this then! I am staring at sets and subjsets that become combined to make various combinations of gear. Its rather complex, but easy to use once you get it down, at least for me. I stare at what RDMs swap nowadays and I get bored, the work is more tedious than anything for that.

For enspell damage, at your level? (which is about the same as mine) Somthing is wrong. I can pull a minimum of 4 damage out of my enspells unless shell, stoneskin, or some form of dispellable resistance is up. But no, for me personally I plan on seeing if I can get away with uping that damage through a very expensive means when I get to the right area. I dont recomend it for other Hybrid Style rdms, but its somthing I can try personally.

If you are dealing under 4 damage on your enspells, take a look at your situation, you've missed somthing. Is it firesday? Is your enhansing capped or not? Did you miss a Dispel?

I average 8 damage on my enspell per hit (More if I am in the correct cercumstances) on IT++ mobs. MND and INT are also factors as to the resistance of the enspells, so if those stats are still weakened, your enspells will hit harder.

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Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

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