XPing with RDM/BRD

[Zempten]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Let me state a coulple benfits margianal has over Frost.

1. It is NOT an DoT therefore it does not conflict with sleep.

2. It consumes 0 MP.

3. It is Stackable with Frost.

1) You shouldn't have to sleep the mob you are currently fighting, it is only adds that need to be slept. Plus, wether or not there is Frost as a DOT, there is usually Dia or Bio on the mob

2) It consumes time and running around

You can't look at something based soley on it's benefits without looking at it's downsides as well.

In a party that is lacking a BLM there is usually a DRK, let the dark Absorb Dex if you are /brd and you'll see a signifigant increese.

Absorb-DEX also works in the way that the amount of DEX absorbed decrases over time.

This is what I mean when I say introverson. Alot of these duities can be shared for greater effect. Why does everyone beleive that its only the rdms duity to enfeeble the mob, when other jobs are alot better at their respective angle of it?

Your right, duties SHOULD be shared for a greater effect. This is the ideal way of thinking. However the ideal way DOES NOT EQUAL the realistic way, ideal =! realistic. In the ideal way, every PT should be great, every member knows his or her duties. However, we all know this does not work in game or in real life. Therefore some jobs have to pull a little extra weight and for some reason we've taken up that request.

For reference, I am not saying /BRD is greater or less then /BLM or /WHM. I'm just pointing facts out. In determining SJs I will just say it depends on the PT and the type of mobs we exp on. Be flexible.

[almighty_boof]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

2) It consumes time and running around

Not a single time have i ever ran around playing rdm/brd so far. When you hear a pull and the mob is in sight, start to sing your melee buffer. By the song is done it is highly possible the puller will recieve the effects of the song. Also not one time have i had to reapply my song in the middle of the fight. I just start to cast paeon when the mob has a couple more hits left.

I do admit that all the other bard abilities and songs consume more time; however when i subbed /blm and /whm i found that i had nothing to do (even while being main healer).

So you;re right, Zempten, the abilities do consume more time. I am just glad i have to take a break after every other chain we complete.

[kuu]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

If you really insist one having frost, let the higher elemental rating mage do it. We stress ourselves so much on being the most efficent. Somtimes we have to learn to bow out and say were not as good as the next guy. In my humble opinion it is the Black Mage's secondary duity to peg Elemental Debuffs on the mob.

Please refer to an eariler point I made, about even having a blm and rdm, a blm sitting till MB has benefits.

If you're going to rebuff what I said, at least read up a little.

And this is assuming you have a blm on your team at that.

[pooq]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Not a single time have i ever ran around playing rdm/brd so far.

You will once you get ballad.

From what I can tell, RDM/BRD works well for tarus who have a lot of MP to begin with, but for other races, it will be to much of an inpact on their convert ratio to be worthwile, unles you are able to get other mages to cast stuff in your place and let you save that MP.

And remember, some people don't have millions to spend on gear, or have other jobs at 75 for merits :sweat:

[almighty_boof]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

I know running around will be an issue once ballad is available; fortunatley, i can only keep one song on per person, so i have a song for melee and a song for mages. Not too bad if you ask me. And i dont mind giving my members an occasional Etude when it becomes available. The stronger they are, the stronger I am. I dont think anyone wouldn't appriciate a free stat up from one of their "strange" party members.

Also anyone who says that you have to have the best gear to be a good player is... ignorant. I have seen multiple players play with equipment that even i thought was pretty out of date with remarkable skill. Your abilities are not based on gear. It is your knowledge of your own job and how to play with other players. Gear is a luxury.

<(^_^)>

[Rones]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

The perks? You get Sword Madrigal early on of course, which gives +15 accuracy even when used off a bard subjob

Sadly, my past belief in this proved to be wrong. A couple weeks ago I spent a few hours testing this with some melee friends as 75whm/brd. We got a bunch of +accu equipment and checked how much accu+ was needed to change a mobs evasion con lvl (eg: from high evasion to no con, from no con to low evasion). Then start over with no +accu, sing madrigal and see how much +accu equipment you need to change evasion con. The results showed madrigal gave between 6 and 9 accu, as all our +accu equipment was in +5 increments (snipers, life belt, etc). There were times +5 accu didn't change it, but madrigal did. Also times +10 accu equip changed it, but madrigal did not. Thus madrigal is between 6 and 9 accu+ for a 75whm/37brd.

However, the numbers are correct for main bards. Whether the effect increases as you lvl I did not test (such as 50 whm/brd having a smaller effect). I really have trouble bringing myself to sub brd after discovering this.

[Hyrist]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

1) You shouldn't have to sleep the mob you are currently fighting, it is only adds that need to be slept. Plus, wether or not there is Frost as a DOT, there is usually Dia or Bio on the mob

Point conseeded. However the DoT of frost, or any other elemental debuff is minute at best. They have to be stacked for the collective DoTs to have a noticable effect, which costs about 75 MP right there. Vrs taking the time and casting one DoT song ontop of Marginal. (Not familar as to how high of Tier we get on that subbed. Icemage help me out with the stats here?)

Absorb-DEX also works in the way that the amount of DEX absorbed decrases over time.

I'll have the check how frost hits me in soloing elementals to get back to you to see if it decreeses as well, but I dont think it does. Also, the point being is that this is addional ontop of a Marginal that would normally not have been there.

But also conister that his raises the Dex of the user ontop of lowering the dex of target. Though it may wear down till it is gone, its bonuses for using this spell as opposed or in conjunction with Marginal and Frost is almost double.

Your right, duties SHOULD be shared for a greater effect. This is the ideal way of thinking. However the ideal way DOES NOT EQUAL the realistic way, ideal =! realistic. In the ideal way, every PT should be great, every member knows his or her duties. However, we all know this does not work in game or in real life. Therefore some jobs have to pull a little extra weight and for some reason we've taken up that request.

This is what I was talking about in my post on my latest thread. This trend of people eeking through with the bare minimum of duities in my expirnece, is increesing, putting more and more weight on the few support jobs that exhist. Ask a number of Drks if they have a swap for INT/Darkness+ gear and see what sort of responce you'll get. Ask Blms if they like to cast their elemental enfeebles...

Anyways I'll stop before it becomes a rant. I like the idea of RDM/BRD. It has its advantages and disadvantages, like any subjob combo. I think we have enough room in our job discription to have a little leeway on how we comit extra support.

[Zempten]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

We got a bunch of +accu equipment and checked how much accu+ was needed to change a mobs evasion con lvl (eg: from high evasion to no con, from no con to low evasion).

I don't suppose you would have those numbers avaliable? I'm interested in seeing them, not because I doubt you but because I'm interested.

Also would this experiement work as well?

What I mean is would it have been better to just equip say +15 Accuracy and meele mobs, record your accuracy percentage from a parser. Play Madrigal and meele mobs, record your accuracy percentage from a parser.

By this I mean we can pinpoint the exact +# of Madrigal.

For example:
If +10 Accuracy items gave the same % as Madrigal (no items) then that would be your number.

Double Post Edited:

Point conseeded. However the DoT of frost, or any other elemental debuff is minute at best. They have to be stacked for the collective DoTs to have a noticable effect, which costs about 75 MP right there. Vrs taking the time and casting one DoT song ontop of Marginal. (Not familar as to how high of Tier we get on that subbed. Icemage help me out with the stats here?)

I am a bit lost on your definition of noticable effect. When you say this do you mean the damage of the dots? or the decrease in stats of the dots? Personally I believe that these dots were not used for damage, but for the -stats.

Elemental Debuff: 25 ( 2 )
Dia 2: 30
Bio 2: 36

I'm not certain about which spells your talking about, so I only listed the 3 that we have used thru our disscussion ( Elemental Debuff, Dia, and Bio). The number is around 80 unless some conserve MP kicks in.

I too would like to know the effects of Elemental Debuff, Dia, and Bio (the % was here somewhere but I don't remeber it). I'm sure Icemage can enlighten us on this one.

I do know that Absorb-VIT gave me +25 to VIT when I was doing RDM/DRK. Not sure if Dark Magic skill will effect the amount drained, but I'm leaning to the fact that it doesn't because if I get resisted it says so and I've always been getting +25.

I'll have the check how frost hits me in soloing elementals to get back to you to see if it decreeses as well, but I dont think it does. Also, the point being is that this is addional ontop of a Marginal that would normally not have been there.

I am quoting the results of the previous poster on Frost. I have not tested this

But also conister that his raises the Dex of the user ontop of lowering the dex of target. Though it may wear down till it is gone, its bonuses for using this spell as opposed or in conjunction with Marginal and Frost is almost double.

I suppose if we want a entire PT effect that Absorb-DEX may not be the best option. Perhaps Absorb - VIT or AGI would be better for a entire PT effect.

This is what I was talking about in my post on my latest thread. This trend of people eeking through with the bare minimum of duities in my expirnece, is increesing, putting more and more weight on the few support jobs that exhist. Ask a number of Drks if they have a swap for INT/Darkness+ gear and see what sort of responce you'll get. Ask Blms if they like to cast their elemental enfeebles...

People do what is easiest for them, it is a natural trait of all of us. Wether we break it or not is something entire different.

Anyways I'll stop before it becomes a rant. I like the idea of RDM/BRD. It has its advantages and disadvantages, like any subjob combo. I think we have enough room in our job discription to have a little leeway on how we comit extra support.

It's never a rant when the disccussion is civilized (sp?) ^^

[Icemage]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Hmm... my experience with /BRD always shows marked improvement in accuracy with Madrigal (though even with +5 accuracy, it's noticeable unless people are overindulging on sushi, which is quite rare). I haven't personally tested in quite some time however. I'll see if I can find some rigorous conditions to test under and see what I come up with, as the old research referenced by Apple Pie way back when may be out of date via a silent update.

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The only DoT spell that does any appreciable damage is Poison II. Requiem VI isn't too shabby either, but anyone who has used either one can tell you that as far as overall damage goes, it's generally a drop in the bucket. The nice thing about these types of spells is that they deal damage without giving TP.

If I recall, Absorb-Stat all weaken over time, but -stats from elemental enfeebles do not. It may have been changed at some point, as I do recall something along those lines in update notes, but can't for the life of me remember the details offhand. I'll speak more about those below.

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Should be noted that Dia and Bio effects cannot co-exist on the same target. Bio II > Dia II > Bio > Dia, leftmost overwriting all entries to the right.

Dia gives -5% penalty to Defense.
Dia II gives -10% penalty to Defense.
Bio gives -5% penalty to Attack.
Bio II gives -10% penalty to Attack.

These numbers are small enough in many cases to be indistinguishable in many cases until you use WS, where the raw Atk/Def numbers play more of a role.

---

I don't recall what the new stat penalties on elemental debuffs are. They used to be fixed at -5 per affected stat, now it varies based on elemental skill, but I can't find the related research that I read last year regarding this.

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Regarding debuffs that we get as /BLM, all BLM elemental debuffs are available to RDM when subbed at the appropriate levels:

Shock RDM32/BLM16
Rasp RDM36/BLM18
Choke RDM40/BLM20
Frost RDM44/BLM22
Burn RDM48/BLM24
Drown RDM54/BLM27

It should be noted that these spells trigger off of Elemental skill, not Enfeebling, which means main BLMs(A rank Elemental) are much, much better at casting these spells than RDM(C rank Elemental) are. I don't consider it a worthwhile effort for RDMs to be casting these spells when a BLM is present, especially with their hefty MP price tag and effect-linked-to-skill-level characteristics.


Icemage

[kuu]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

It should be noted that these spells trigger off of Elemental skill, not Enfeebling, which means main BLMs(A rank Elemental) are much, much better at casting these spells than RDM(C rank Elemental) are. I don't consider it a worthwhile effort for RDMs to be casting these spells when a BLM is present, especially with their hefty MP price tag and effect-linked-to-skill-level characteristics.

Icemage

25MP is costly??

It's been awhile, so maybe there was an update that changed things, But my whm long ago was able to frost just as well againist weak vs monsters.

And with an Ice staff or HQ, Your rdm elemental dotter is no slacker. About 1 down in con.

This also as I said, sets up the blm to sit till MB, meaning anywhere from 100-300 more MP to do a nuke of death. A rest period from death of monster -> MB is more efficient in cases where you have large SCs and not small ones, like a /thf type ender

Also since 2 elementals can be cast, a good setup would to have it frosted by rdm then when MB calls, the blm finally stand then adds burn follow by MB+ nuke of death.

[Rones]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

I don't suppose you would have those numbers avaliable? I'm interested in seeing them, not because I doubt you but because I'm interested.

There aren't really any numbers to post. Reread the experiment and you will see what I'm getting at. To explain further I went out with a melee friend as 75whm/brd. We had him use a weapon he had lower skill with (was ~120) and found some Too weaks that con high evasion or no evasion to him in the nude. Then he would put on accu+ gear in increments of 5 (eg: put on one sniper, then another, then a life belt with one sniper, followed by 2 snipers and life belt) until the mob changed evasion con lvls. Now we would start over with no gear and I would give him madrigal. He would then add +accu equip until the evasion lvl changed (if any was needed). Thus sometimes one sniper ring wasn't enough to change the con, but madrigal was, other mobs might need a life belt to change, but madrigal alone didn't do it.

This told us madrigal was more than +5 accu and less than +10. Had we had +accu equipment that wasn't just in increments of +5 we could have narrowed it down further. However, the main point of the experiment was to discover whether or not subbed madrigal had the same effect as main job which it clearly did not after the first couple tests.

Also would this experiement work as well?

What I mean is would it have been better to just equip say +15 Accuracy and meele mobs, record your accuracy percentage from a parser. Play Madrigal and meele mobs, record your accuracy percentage from a parser.

By this I mean we can pinpoint the exact +# of Madrigal.

For example:
If +10 Accuracy items gave the same % as Madrigal (no items) then that would be your number.

Your experiment might work, but it would be much, much more difficult and require days of data to get the margin of error down and keeping outside circumstances from influencing the data would prove difficult. More work than is needed when an easier experiment is already available that can provide more accurate results.

I still believe Applepie's data is correct, just not when brd is subbed (his data never touched on this sadly).

[Kilgraw]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

I use/used /brd on manaburn parties, and anytime we were fighting monsters that have incredibly stupid high evasion (torama at onzozo for example). I've found /brd to be pretty useless endgame sadly though.

[Rai|Kye]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

[...]0 MP Madrigal is way, WAY more effective than 25MP Frost, both in efficiency and in effect, since Frost will wear off whenever it feels like, while Madrigal is predictable. Shock is nice sometimes to stick enfeebles, but again... +10 Enfeebling merits. I don't consider any of the other elemental enfeebles to be worth casting for RDM. [...]
Icemage

i might be mistaken, but isnt frost ELEMENTAL MAGIC ?
its DoT ELE-spell as far as im concernd so +10 enfeebling wont do much on it

[Hyrist]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

The issue that consirns me the most quite simply is that /blms's elemental debuffs do not stack with those of other players. Therefore you may or may not end up sharing or competing with the BLM's higher elemental skill. I personally dont like that.

If they were stackable dependant on player, then I would swear by /blm 100%

With /BRD /WHM /SMN and /DRK, our abilties that assist the party do not compete with that of our respective party members (unless there is a brd in the party, rare occurance.) Infact, they accentuate them. And though I personally dont like using /whm. I plan on raising /brd /smn and /drk as my more main subjobs, and having /blm be used for endgame events, ease of travel (warp is nice...) and a tad bit of soloing.

Now endgame is an entirely differnt game to play, so is ballista. So of course I will adjust for those specific situation. But I think the use of more party co-operative Subjobs might take a rise in RDM use in the next few months.

[Zempten]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

i might be mistaken, but isnt frost ELEMENTAL MAGIC ?
its DoT ELE-spell as far as im concernd so +10 enfeebling wont do much on it

I believe he is revering to lowering the target's MND thru Shock so enfeebles land better.

Double Post Edited:

I use/used /brd on manaburn parties, and anytime we were fighting monsters that have incredibly stupid high evasion (torama at onzozo for example). I've found /brd to be pretty useless endgame sadly though.

Why would accuracy matter in a manaburn PT? Is the evasion a reference of magic resistance as well to meele accuracy?