XPing with RDM/BRD

[almighty_boof]

Sorry. Sorry. This may have been brought up before but i cant see it anywhere. And the sticky doesnt include bard. So, i wanted to get some "expert" opinions on this.

So far i have taken red mage to lv 25 subbed with bard. For one exception of subbing black mage on my last party. RDM/BRD is an extremely wierd combination, but it had been working out amazingly for me. In almost all of my partys there is no downtime. I also get to beef up the melee with a song and the mages if they want one. Paeon after battles to get HP back up. I also get a couple free debuffs from my bard sub. I know at level 50 i would get mages ballad, which is on top of the refresh spell i would have.

I also found that i am NEVER bored during battles because there is so much to do with this job combination. So, my question is: Is this a stupid job combination at higher levels?

[Altae]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Subbing BRD for RDM can work pretty well, at higher up levels. But it does make you work more. You're combining the party attentiveness of a BRD with the party needyness of a RDM. Meaning, you'll probably end up doing the running back and forth thing with Mages and Melees. While trying to keep Enfeebles, refresh, cures, and haste going. But don't worry, at level 25 RDM that isn too much fo a worry yet^^

Though, for a 25RDM, I wouldn't sub BRD yet. Best to get a subjob that'll further increase your MP and MND or INT stats. As well as including more spell variations to use with the RDM job.

If you really want to know the INs and OUTs or RDM/BRD, ask Icemage. He's done it for a while and would know more.

[Rones]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

If you can maintain a good hp/mp ratio, it works quite well especially for taru. I partied with a rdm/brd the other day in sky and it was quite fun. However, he sarcrified quite a bit of mp off his convert ratio and was missing out on conserve mp which might have cost more than ballad makes up for. Pre 50 though you are likely better off subbing whm as the status heals and divine seal are a bigger help than anything brd can offer.

I also get to beef up the melee with a song and the mages if they want one. Paeon after battles to get HP back up. I also get a couple free debuffs from my bard sub. I

Sadly, melee buffs are extremely weak when brd is subbed. Minuet is clearly weak when you check the numbers and madrigal is between 6-9 accu+ at 75whm/brd, so probably lower at your lvl. Dont' expect brd enfeebles to land much at all either as you get higher as half skilled singing + no instrument is almost a waste. Only one you will land is finale (with some resists still), but you already have dispel from rdm.

The real benefits of the sub are at the upper lvls.

[Rogan]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

rdm/brd isnt bad, I like having refresh and ballad both on, lowers downtime, and hey you can also give the melee madrigal, some might say blm is a better sub but hey, i dont care either way ill invite a rdm/brd

[kuu]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Though not having the -na line of whm and sleepga/elemental seal/conserve mp of blm is pretty bad.

I suppose if you got a heavy MP using group it'll make up for it.

But shit hits the fan senerios are againist you.

And as a rdm your personal gain is less without conserve MP+MP.

[Icemage]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

I've been XPing as RDM/BRD almost exclusively since level 22. Takes a lot of time-management to get the songs cast while doing the rest of your job, but it is *visibly* stronger in XP parties vs. RDM/BLM as long as you can maintain a reasonable HP/MP ratio.

Granted, there are times when /BLM is nice for Escape, but generally speaking for simple link control you already have Sleep / Sleep II + blink/stoneskin which covers pretty much all emergency situations short of horrendously stupid puller who brings back multiple adds (in which case you tell the BLM or WHM in your party to start casting Escape or Teleport while you control the adds and keep people alive).

The big issues with RDM/BRD are:

Casting time. Fast Cast helps you get the songs off a bit faster (so you only spend about 6 seconds singing instead of 7), but that's still a hefty chunk of time. Learning how to juggle 2 songs for a party while doing enfeebling/refresh/etc. is an acquired skill, and takes some time to get used to.

HP/MP ratio. If you're taru, this isn't as much of an issue (my current HP/MP ratio while converting as RDM/BRD is somewhere around 770HP/752MP if I recall). For lower-MP races, this could be a big limiting factor in effectiveness. For all intents and purposes, as Tarutaru RDM/BRD I lose only about 20 points off Convert since I can actually get more MP than HP if I use BLM sub. Note that you will need to invest in some pretty weird gear to get this type of efficiency. At level 60 I use Frog Trousers (HP-5 MP+20, Star Necklace (HP>MP 15), Aurora Mantle (MP+10), Astral Ring(HP>MP 25), Tamas Ring (MP+15~, currently +23 at this level if I remember right), Crimson Blade(MP+10) to boost my max MP when converting.

MND. You lose a couple points of MND, which you'll need to address by adding extra +MND gear when casting white magic enfeebles like Paralyze, Slow, and Silence.

The perks? You get Sword Madrigal early on of course, which gives +15 accuracy even when used off a bard subjob (that's 3 extra Sniper's Rings for those of you in the peanut gallery). You can also use Paeons in between pulls to patch up people who were scratched up without spending MP. At level 50/25 you get Mage's Ballad. 4MP/tick for everyone in the party (including yourself!) is great, and really helps keep downtime minimal. At 62/31 you get your last useful buff song, Hunter's Prelude, which gives you something extra to offer the occasional Ranger aside from Quick Etude. Finally at 66/33 you get Magic Finale, a 0-mp replacement for Dispel which works wonders against Skeletons mages and RDM-type Weapons.

When do you not use /BRD? Basically whenever you have a main bard in the party. Considering how rare that is, it means RDM/BRD is effective in virtually all XP parties.

I fully intend to use this combination all the way to 75, unless I start seeing more bard mains in my parties.


Icemage

[Zempten]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

When do you not use /BRD? Basically whenever you have a main bard in the party. Considering how rare that is, it means RDM/BRD is effective in virtually all XP parties.

I fully intend to use this combination all the way to 75, unless I start seeing more bard mains in my parties.

Icemage

I think that sometimes /WHM may come in handy for certain situations. One that comes in mind is the tigers and cockatrices (sp?) in Kuftal Tunnel.

BTW, I'm not saying that /WHM or /BLM is the best. I'm just saying when picking your SJ for the PT consider your other players and the location and type of mobs you are fighting.

Just throwing in my two cents.

[kuu]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

I've been XPing as RDM/BRD almost exclusively since level 22. Takes a lot of time-management to get the songs cast while doing the rest of your job, but it is *visibly* stronger in XP parties vs. RDM/BLM as long as you can maintain a reasonable HP/MP ratio.

Granted, there are times when /BLM is nice for Escape, but generally speaking for simple link control you already have Sleep / Sleep II + blink/stoneskin which covers pretty much all emergency situations short of horrendously stupid puller who brings back multiple adds (in which case you tell the BLM or WHM in your party to start casting Escape or Teleport while you control the adds and keep people alive).

This is assuming the rdm is on the higher teir of the party and even then must have a not IT+++ enemy.

ES+sleep(sleepline) is cruical in those situations. While an experiance party don't go after stuff more then it's worth, it happens more often then not, and it's not to uncommon for a monster that is very hard to sleep, in which case, more people with ES+sleep will make or break a pt.

Your rdm will also not have the blm elemental line, such as frost, or aspir which are very important in their own right of good spells to cast list.

Frost is way important if you have a heavy melee line, even when you have a blm in the pt, a blm that doesn't have to dot means sitting till MB, which can pour his power into the "nuke of death" fight ender.

/whm is self expanatory if you have the really xp killer like AoE para, silena, etc.

[almighty_boof]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Sadly, melee buffs are extremely weak when brd is subbed. Minuet is clearly weak when you check the numbers and madrigal is between 6-9 accu+ at 75whm/brd, so probably lower at your lvl. Dont' expect brd enfeebles to land much at all either as you get higher as half skilled singing + no instrument is almost a waste. Only one you will land is finale (with some resists still), but you already have dispel from rdm.

The buff songs do only boost the stats by a few points, but isnt that what regular equips do too? There isnt these large stat boosts, it is usually LESS than 6. And i think +6-9 is much better than +0. It also helps me too (if i ever have time to melee). I think any free stat ups work wonders.

[Icemage]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

This is assuming the rdm is on the higher teir of the party and even then must have a not IT+++ enemy.

ES+sleep(sleepline) is cruical in those situations. While an experiance party don't go after stuff more then it's worth, it happens more often then not, and it's not to uncommon for a monster that is very hard to sleep, in which case, more people with ES+sleep will make or break a pt.

Maybe my case is different than most. Anything that sleep will stick to, I can generally land, as I have 5 levels of Enfeebling Magic merits, giving me an additional +10 Enfeebling Magic. Even IT++ enemies rarely resist my Sleep IIs with dark staff and AF equipped (and I expect this to become even less of an issue once I get to level 65 with access to my Enfeebling Torque).

Your rdm will also not have the blm elemental line, such as frost, or aspir which are very important in their own right of good spells to cast list.

Frost is way important if you have a heavy melee line, even when you have a blm in the pt, a blm that doesn't have to dot means sitting till MB, which can pour his power into the "nuke of death" fight ender.

0 MP Madrigal is way, WAY more effective than 25MP Frost, both in efficiency and in effect, since Frost will wear off whenever it feels like, while Madrigal is predictable. Shock is nice sometimes to stick enfeebles, but again... +10 Enfeebling merits. I don't consider any of the other elemental enfeebles to be worth casting for RDM.

/whm is self expanatory if you have the really xp killer like AoE para, silena, etc.

Yes, this is sometimes the case, but if I'm expecting this sort of status-spam, I'll do my best to get a WHM or SMN (or even both). I can, of course, sub WHM myself if necessary, or BLM for that matter, but the fact remains that I notice my parties are decisively stronger when I am /BRD vs. /WHM or /BLM.


Icemage

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Its not so bad... /BRD can come in handy for BLMs or WHMs to wear when no RDMs and BRDs are seeking... and it helps RDMs if the party is a little manaburn-ish

[almighty_boof]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

I you Icemage! :D

[kuu]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

0 MP Madrigal is way, WAY more effective than 25MP Frost, both in efficiency and in effect, since Frost will wear off whenever it feels like, while Madrigal is predictable. Shock is nice sometimes to stick enfeebles, but again... +10 Enfeebling merits. I don't consider any of the other elemental enfeebles to be worth casting for RDM.

Icemage

Frost is not the same as madrigal. But it's somewhat minor. But the elemental line is superior in that:

1:That do DoT
2: They lower enemy basic stats.

Madrigral is acc, but lowering dex is not as simple. We don't know the full effects of basic stats fully, especially on monsters.

Not only does it lower their eva, but also lowers there crit rate as in the agi vs dex senerio.

Usually a simple frost check lowers 1 teir of evasion rate, so there is a good amount of dex lost.

All the elemental line are good to have if used properly and for a rdm that can use staves they're not by any means on the side.

It's hard to do any real tests, but all those "free" MP you keep talking about, I always counter argue in my mind of the Conservere MP +MP via convert+more sit time will just negate.

Your rdm/brd running around is probably going to hit problems as we go to the nasty AoE monster stage if it's getting to 65+

[eriiko]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Keep in mind that the frost, Burn, ect line of spells wears off over time. Once you cast it, it might take off 10DEX, but 2 minutes later it is only doing -2DEX. Hopefully your battles will not be this long.

[Hyrist]

Re: XPing with RDM/BRD

Frost is not the same as madrigal. But it's somewhat minor. But the elemental line is superior in that:

1:That do DoT
2: They lower enemy basic stats.

Madrigral is acc, but lowering dex is not as simple. We don't know the full effects of basic stats fully, especially on monsters.

Not only does it lower their eva, but also lowers there crit rate as in the agi vs dex senerio.

Usually a simple frost check lowers 1 teir of evasion rate, so there is a good amount of dex lost.

Let me state a coulple benfits margianal has over Frost.

1. It is NOT an DoT therefore it does not conflict with sleep.

2. It consumes 0 MP.

3. It is Stackable with Frost.

If you really insist one having frost, let the higher elemental rating mage do it. We stress ourselves so much on being the most efficent. Somtimes we have to learn to bow out and say were not as good as the next guy. In my humble opinion it is the Black Mage's secondary duity to peg Elemental Debuffs on the mob.

IF we go /Blm we can assiste their MP drain by casting a couple ourselves, or check for resists and overcast. But the concept that Elemental Enfeebles, just because they lower enfeebles, falls under our primary duities, is flat wrong.

In a party that is lacking a BLM there is usually a DRK, let the dark Absorb Dex if you are /brd and you'll see a signifigant increese.

This is what I mean when I say introverson. Alot of these duities can be shared for greater effect. Why does everyone beleive that its only the rdms duity to enfeeble the mob, when other jobs are alot better at their respective angle of it?