Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

[Icemage]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Maybe we're playing different games. If anything, the general player base is getting better, not worse. True, there's still a lot of people out there who don't understand how to function as a team, but that number is shrinking, not growing, as there are more veteran players who are absorbing the fundamentals by contact with good players.

It is far easier to find good players these days than it used to be. Do I wish there were more? Of course. Does wanting it to happen make it any more likely to? Probably not.

All we can do is try and set an example for others and show them what good team play can accomplish in FFXI. After that, the onus is on them to learn from the good examples and figure out what parts of their play style could use tweaking.


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Perhaps I'm being a bit shortsided and harsh. I'll refrain from instantly jumping to that mode. I apoligize for being narrowminded in that sense, although I do feel you have the correct train of thought, you were unable to coherantly express that. Not limited to grammar or spelling, you just contradicted yourself when you were trying to prove your points.

No matter, at least you found the right community. This is THE place to get input on what you feel vital/important to your job.

I'm willing to apoligize for the harshness of my past statements. While I wont pull any punches, in the future I'll be more of an objective critic than a flat out domaneering tyrant.

In any case, /DRK is inferior to /BLM on account of the loss of abilities, traits, Agas and MP. Hence, I do not feel it should even be brought up at all. Perhaps we may find usage to the Absorb line of spells we can get from a sub, but RDM Dark is E, and it is unlikely that at the level we can use them, we'd find any usage, or see a decent return from them.

I'm all for /SMN and /BRD. /SMN is awsome if all you need is a bigger MP pool for your duties, and you can fit the pt role. Likewise, /BRD is superb for a Setup with a lot of MP users, or even a setup with a lot of Melee. Either way tho, I do not see much use for it outside of being able to Ballad and Refresh at the same time, due to the fact that we'd have capped Singing, hence, our melee buff songs and/or etudes would be pretty gimp. It has been proven to be a sub that works when tailored to, so I cant dispute its efectiveness in certain situations as well.

[Hyrist]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Maybe we're playing different games. If anything, the general player base is getting better, not worse. True, there's still a lot of people out there who don't understand how to function as a team, but that number is shrinking, not growing, as there are more veteran players who are absorbing the fundamentals by contact with good players.

There is a slight contrast. The ones I talk to seem to have a good enough stragity and seem open to working together. But ones I find in party more often than not, have some difficulty working out the cogs. It may just be my luck with parties, though my last couple were pretty good. But I digress.

In any case, /DRK is inferior to /BLM on account of the loss of abilities, traits, Agas and MP. Hence, I do not feel it should even be brought up at all. Perhaps we may find usage to the Absorb line of spells we can get from a sub, but RDM Dark is E, and it is unlikely that at the level we can use them, we'd find any usage, or see a decent return from them.

You'll have to parton my intelectual courosity, but I intend on proving or disproving this to myself. I've had arguments from those that do expirment with that we can get reliable use with proper gear. I'm skeptacle, but I wish to investigate. IF indeed there is a way to do so, I'm likley to come accorst it. I've been getting backwards stragities to work well in various FFs (And RPGs in general) since childhood. (You should see some of the comibinations I made with the meteria system )

If it works, its worth the shot. If it dosent, at least I'll have solid research to improve upon or improvise as the game Updates. Thats how I view that matter.

I'm all for /SMN and /BRD. /SMN is awsome if all you need is a bigger MP pool for your duties, and you can fit the pt role. Likewise, /BRD is superb for a Setup with a lot of MP users, or even a setup with a lot of Melee. Either way tho, I do not see much use for it outside of being able to Ballad and Refresh at the same time, due to the fact that we'd have capped Singing, hence, our melee buff songs and/or etudes would be pretty gimp. It has been proven to be a sub that works when tailored to, so I cant dispute its efectiveness in certain situations as well.

I'm alot more secure in the stragities of /brd and /sum, so my research on the combinatons is minimal. My only opposition to both classes is the casting time of using those abilities, is quite slow. I personally like my effects to be faster than that. But that is a price I may be willing to pay to be more party-copperative, and incourage the other jobs to be as well. I have penty of time to figure everything out, so I am taking it. I personally feel that rushing into things really does make you get bored with it quicker. I've had to say goodbye to many friends who've passed me, and they quit the game sooner.

Wishmaster, thank you for your coutious reply. The time of demeanor you showed in your reicent post on this thread reflects the helpful, paitent kindness that I have grown to like on these boards more than the others I frequent and ghost. I hope we'll have more positive forum encounters in here in the future.

[Zempten]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Just for clarification for myself. Your just basically stating for us to keep an open mind to future possibilites for a RDM, right?

If so, I do not think anyone here is opposing that. Rather we would encourage you in your experiments. However, what most of this fourm wants is proof before they will even begin to consider it as a possibility.

The only thing I can relate to an act as such is Ruic experimenting with his RDM as a tank.

Wish you success in your endeavors, I wish I could be as noble as you to give back to a fourm that gave me so much.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Someone link Ruics post, cause I still remember how awsome his trials were.

My only opposition to both classes is the casting time of using those abilities, is quite slow.

What aspect were you refering to? To me it seems you were refering to the casting time and recast, both of which can be lessened immensely due to our Fast Cast trait, which also brings along Fast Recast.

(IE, Utsusemi: Ichi, with Fast Cast 4 from job traits and AF hat and Haste has a recast of 21, as opposed to, 30 I believe.)

Bard songs have pretty strong recast timers, so I'm also interesting in seeing how Fast Cast can affect the spells we have access to. Perhaps RDM can dual MB, to some extent, as RDM/SMN.

I'll dabble in RDM/SMN just to see if the Dual-MBing can offset the loss of stats and traits from BLM sub. If there is no negligable loss, then RDM/SMN may be better than RDM/BLM.

Keeping this in mind, more MP *may* make up for Conserve MP, although seeing yourself cast Refresh for 30 or less MP is nice ;.;

Loss of INT and Magic Attack Bonuses may be offset from the usage of Avatars in MBs. However, we'd only have access to capped Summoning, and not have access to the avatars higher abilities. So maybe using a lvl 33 avatar to MB on a mob you exp on at 66-69 would be meaningless, in addition to gimping your own nuking capacities.

The only positive I initially see would be Auto Refresh and huge MP pool. Despite my speculation and knowing the flaws, I can't dispute that it is worth a shot.

But still, I think that the Absorb Spells, from a RDM/DRK are weaker than the elemental Debuffs from BLM sub. Whatever we can get from DRK sub i think is inferior to BLM sub in terms of partying. Still worth a shot though, so post the results of that when you can.

[Lmnop]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Hello Folks, I do believe this is the first time I've actually posted in the rdm forums. I have a few stupid things to add

as far as player intelligence is concerned... it's kinda an odd situation. Everyone basically starts playing, gets told what to focus on (+int gear for the blms, a greataxe for the warriors, etc), and gets everything handed to them. I know a guy who's currently rdm 25 and blm 20 and has never had a party lacking a power level. 25 levels of partying and he's NEVER experienced a self-sufficient party. Doesn't that seem.... rediculous? The Uber-equipment obsession has swollen as much as the economy, and board-flames are at an all-time high. The reason most of us even come to these boards is because it's a nice atmosphere. Allakhazam's rife with fan boys high on placebos, KI's just a nesting ground for flame wars. Comparitively, this site is much much better but as a whole, I'm seeing a lot of slipping. Wishmaster apologized, props to you, but I shall use that as an example. I remember when his sidebar said "Red Mage 32" and now all his examples are thf with sharkbite and light SCs (btw, check out the thf forum right now and you'll see what's wrong with a thf splitting his SA and TA up -- tp doesn't come that fast). This forum's held up too long just to get torn apart by trivial arguements. We're above making fun of each other's English -- that sort of Ad Hominem crap is wasting what these boards are for.

But that's not what's important to this thread. you see rdm/blm only because people know it works. it doesn't matter if it's always the best, because no one cares to give their job that much work. I don't care what Hyrist's beliefs are on meleeing, he's right. All these melee overloaded on accuracy gear and +accuracy food? they're spending 3 times as much on accuracy food so their accuracy can go up from 89% to 91%. Why are they doing it? Because they're told to. If I ask a mage in my LS what piece I should buy, they'll always say "buy the one with +acc" because that's what they know. "Dragoons Suck." "Why?" "That's what my LS says." "F••• You."

And now for the all-powerful personal account that I feel relates to what Hyrist is saying:
just tonight had an exp party. As a warrior, when I tank it takes a lot of effort on the part of the whole party. If you laugh at the idea of a warrior tanking after 60, go search some of Nny's threads. This party layout was ideal for me to tank in, and I was looking forward to it. Sadly, player ability and communication threw it out the window. The thf and samurai barely ever communicated with each other and thus, many SC opportunities were lost, the blm nuked and got hate before the initial SATA quite frequently (the SATA was extremely slow, often times in part because they didn't realize each other would have tp soon enough so the sam would tank for extended periods of time -- oh and the sam usually let the mob swing 2-3 times at thf before voking) and seemed to miss a lot of MBs or didn't even try for them, though I didn't pay attention close enough to say for sure if it was habitual. The blm's mp levels were also awkwardly low very often but she couldn't have been nuking TOO much with a warrior tank.. ok now that has me wondering. I must say though, the whm and brd did their job very well so I was
able to tank successfully for the most part and kept hate well in my haubergeon.
Of all the times I've tanked, this was the only one with a bard that couldn't get chain 5 reliably. No one talked about their party role -- they all did the bare minimum to get by; enough to take care of themselves.
see topic.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

But that's not what's important to this thread. you see rdm/blm only because people know it works. it doesn't matter if it's always the best, because no one cares to give their job that much work. I don't care what Hyrist's beliefs are on meleeing, he's right. All these melee overloaded on accuracy gear and +accuracy food? they're spending 3 times as much on accuracy food so their accuracy can go up from 89% to 91%. Why are they doing it? Because they're told to. If I ask a mage in my LS what piece I should buy, they'll always say "buy the one with +acc" because that's what they know. "Dragoons Suck." "Why?" "That's what my LS says." "F••• You."

This I completely agree with. I would say 90% of the player population want nothing but to just play the game. If that means following some guide or being told what to do for what, then they will do it. It's rare that you find players who understand the mechanics of the game (or who are willing to do the research) enough to know why certain things are done and not others.

[Hyrist]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

This is why I beleive that the job classes as they stand, are outdated as far as the player's current views of them.

There have been LOTS of item updates, but the guides that pretain to stragity still COMPLETLY rely on the same basic 10-20 items per class that everyone beleives they 'must have'. While all the new items comming in get instantly shunned by the group as a whole before it is even tested on the personal level. A good example of this is the new stat + releaced with the RDM JSE: "Magical Accuracy"

When new factors are added into the game, such as equipment. The dynamics change, even if only slightly. In a constantly updating game, guides and perceptions 'should' get a regular overhaul to check for new possiblities. Sadly, because we humans are creatures of habit, we dont bother ourselves with it.

However at the very least it can be brought to peoples' attentions to attract more of the like mind. Those who want to retest and re-research and beleive it would be a benifit to the community.

That was sorta the idea of this tread.

Here's a question? When is the last time sence we've tested Apple Pie's calculations?

[Icemage]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Intensive research is time-consuming. Very few players are inclined to even attempt to figure out how the game really works "under the hood", and even fewer possess the skills and intelligence to set up a controlled test that will produce reliable results.

I do post my findings on forums from time to time (including here), but there are many other things I also would like to do, and spending all my time testing isn't any fun. Note my recent research into Magic Defense for instance.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Thats understandable. I find great fun in researching all this stuff, even though I dont advance very quickily.

Once I manage to get all my IRL money problems settled I am going to start putting up my research on my website so people can take a look at it for themselves. Untill then I am just coping it form internet, to pen and papper, and then back to Notepad. Or somtimes directly from net to notepad depending on where I am doing my research.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Intensive research is time-consuming. Very few players are inclined to even attempt to figure out how the game really works "under the hood", and even fewer possess the skills and intelligence to set up a controlled test that will produce reliable results.

Agreed. It's really unrealistic to expect that much of research from most people (e.g. formulas), but is it so much to ask for to have people research how to play their jobs? PLDs who don't cure, RDM that don't enfeeble, melees that don't know how to set up a skillchain, BLM/smn, SMN/blm, etc. This kind of information is readily available. People need to look.

I do post my findings on forums from time to time (including here), but there are many other things I also would like to do, and spending all my time testing isn't any fun. Note my recent research into Magic Defense for instance.

I did notice that thread Icemage and am utterly grateful for the research you have done into that.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

I always appreciate Icemages research, mostly cause I only have a high school education and I cant understand em >.>;;;

But I feel that the game has reached a stagnation point. My mother's credit card is ending, and me, only lvl 67, I do not have any inclinations to continue playing. The most I see myself doing is getting my own and paying the menial 14bucks (myself and my mule) so I can keep the game around.

Of course, someone once said that if you enjoy exping, you arent doing your job right, so I take that into consideration. Alas, I get tired of meeting good players only after I have been drained by the bad players. Some people think that it's a rush to get to 75, hence we see the assinine attitudes and the ppl who are, accordingly, "high level", yet they make careless mistakes very often.

Looking back on it, I applaud Hyrist's efforts to push boundaries, because, well, RDMs are the single greatest job in FFXI. Hands-down. Someone told me yesterday that RDM dont need God Gear, because we dont need clothes to masqueraid as gods- quite frankly, we are ^^

The problem in the game is the MASS Ignorance. For people to outfit themselves in million-gil gear to only be marginally better than some players is insane. Someone remarked that using Squid Sushi instead of Sole is gimping yourself.

Simply because that's what they were told.

Listen to your social linkshell for 10 minutes, and you'll hear opinions being thrown around by people who do nothing more than go on a forum and *read*. Its a sad day when the vast majority of FFXI has been babysat, high level players are quitting, and no one ventures out to do things outside of exp.

[Hyrist]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Listen to your social linkshell for 10 minutes, and you'll hear opinions being thrown around by people who do nothing more than go on a forum and *read*. Its a sad day when the vast majority of FFXI has been babysat, high level players are quitting, and no one ventures out to do things outside of exp.

I did this, its part of the reason why I do what I do. I told one of my social linkshells that I was going to research my job out of couriosity. And one member, out of respect I shall keep nameless, says "Whats there to research about RDM?" Despite my efforts to convince him that any job should be looked over once in a while for new possiblities and/or flaws, I was blown off by him and several other members. That day, I quietly droped the linkpearl with no further drama.

I can understand opposing a theory, or even questioning data provided. But to outright go against the persuit of knowlage, just because 'its been done before' is sad. In my opinion, first hand expirence is far more impactful than second-hand knowlage. And even 'facts' need to questioned from time to time.

I dont know what I expect to accomplish in my research, but I appricate the applause, and can sympathise with whats going on in your life. I do hope you choose to stay.

[Ghostraven]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

I wish I ran into more people who care about their jobs and actually enjoy the game for everything it has to offer... Great discussion.