Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

[Hyrist]

This is somthing I noticed during my current research into the RDM Job, however it is not just applied to RDMs, it seems that ALL jobs in FFXI have fallen into this trait, and though I beleive it is ok for some jobs to work this way, I have to question it for ours.

When we look to improve the preformance of a job, one of the first things we try to do is maximise the main statistic based off the main function of the job. Rangers Focus on Ranged Accuracy and Damage. Monks focus on attack, Darknights accruacy and attack . White mages MP gear and cure potancy...

This seems to be good for the most part, but Red Mage as a job class has no single statistic, or duity that we can focus on singlely.

Even our main trait, enfeebeling, is devided between Inteligence Based Enfeebles and Mind Based enfeebles. Is it right for us to follow these same methods as other classes? Focusing more on our preformance rather than how to improve the preformance of others?

In fact, I say this to all jobs: Do we as players focus too much upon ourselves, and not enough on aiding eachother?

Now Commonly, Red Mages will sub Blm for the Conserve MP, Aspir, Drain, and Utility spells. And Elemental Seal for Job abilities. However, in doing this, we lack ourselves of many supporative abilities that other subjobs can easially provide.

Na spells, Stackable stat debuffs (AKA Statuse Drain spells available via /drk) Bard songs, effects created by Summoned creatures... all of these things which are quite available for us to assist the party in a more co-operative manner get set asside for more self-based traits and spells. Even our Elemental Debuffs conflict with that of a Blms, who have a much higher elemental rating than us, and is almost ALWAYS capped. (Where ours can fall behind.)

All these things available to us, yes, even some melee beinifits to the party if done correctly, make me wonder weither or not we are taking the proper approach to our job classes, especially RDM.

I would like to hear my fellow RDM community's comments on this as its been interrupting my focus lately.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Even our main trait, enfeebeling, is devided between Inteligence Based Enfeebles and Mind Based enfeebles. Is it right for us to follow these same methods as other classes? Focusing more on our preformance rather than how to improve the preformance of others?

Our own performance directly affects the performance of others. If we slack, miss our dispells, enfeebles, refreshes, etc. we cause the party's performance to drop.

In fact, I say this to all jobs: Do we as players focus too much upon ourselves, and not enough on aiding eachother?

Now Commonly, Red Mages will sub Blm for the Conserve MP, Aspir, Drain, and Utility spells. And Elemental Seal for Job abilities. However, in doing this, we lack ourselves of many supporative abilities that other subjobs can easially provide.

The reason we sub /blm is not strictly for ourselves. Those abilities that /blm provide go a long way in helping us do our jobs. Again, the better we do our job, the better the party performs.

Na spells, Stackable stat debuffs (AKA Statuse Drain spells available via /drk) Bard songs, effects created by Summoned creatures... all of these things which are quite available for us to assist the party in a more co-operative manner get set asside for more self-based traits and spells. Even our Elemental Debuffs conflict with that of a Blms, who have a much higher elemental rating than us, and is almost ALWAYS capped. (Where ours can fall behind.)

A good RDM will also have these abilities available to tailor to the specific situation. We should not blindly sub some job because of one ability or another because what will work in one situation may not work in another. However, /blm does cover most cases and for those short on time, it allows us to do our job well in enough cases.

All these things available to us, yes, even some melee beinifits to the party if done correctly, make me wonder weither or not we are taking the proper approach to our job classes, especially RDM.

lol, I knew you'd stick a melee spin in here somewhere. Can melee (done properly) benefit the party? Yes, I suppose it can. Is it terribly beneficial? I'd say no. Is it more beneficial than our other tasks? No.

[Icemage]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

The self-centric approach to FFXI isn't limited to only RDM. It exists in all jobs, from a variety of players, and it boils down to what you're really after when you choose a subjob.

There's a reason why I XP with RDM/BRD, and not RDM/BLM. A lot of people make rude comments about my choice of subjob, but the fact is, I've used both, and I prefer /BRD because on the whole, it makes my parties stronger than /BLM does. Sure, I don't do *my* job quite as well, but the tradeoff is that I make everyone else do their job better. Weaker me + stronger 5 other people is a win as far as I'm concerned.


Icemage

[neighbortaru]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Sure, I don't do *my* job quite as well, but the tradeoff is that I make everyone else do their job better. Weaker me + stronger 5 other people is a win as far as I'm concerned.

actually I would say if you are making the party work better, then you are doing your job well.

[Hyrist]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Our own performance directly affects the performance of others. If we slack, miss our dispells, enfeebles, refreshes, etc. we cause the party's performance to drop.

Sure but thats one aspect of many. A blm has a much higher elemental skill rating then ours, why arent they managing the elemental debuffs. Same with drk.

lol, I knew you'd stick a melee spin in here somewhere. Can melee (done properly) benefit the party? Yes, I suppose it can. Is it terribly beneficial? I'd say no. Is it more beneficial than our other tasks? No.

Of course I am going to include a part of our job in the dicussion. Especially one so hotly debated. Melee IS a benfit when used correctly, as catalist tool.

Heres an example between introverson and extroverson:

Introverson: PLD mid level uses Spirits Within to maintain hate through the exp party.
Benifits: PLD maintains hate.

Extroverson: Pld closes skillchain with secondary melee character.
Benifits: PLD maintains hate. Skillchian opens new magic bursting oppertunity.

Granted the pld probley did less damage than he would have using spirits, however the skillchain hate falls on him, which helps, and through the magic bursts, either the mob will die faster, or stronger debuffs would be placed on him. A much wider ban of benifit then utalized before.

actually I would say if you are making the party work better, then you are doing your job well.

But it shouldent be just our job souly to help the party work better. Almost every job now shuns stragities and oppertunities that would help their parties preforme better as a whole, for stronger benifits to themselves.

The truth is that focusing so much inwardly to improve JUST your main duities as a job may in fact harm your cause as opposed to hurt it. I really do beleive that the party-co-operation factor lately has been vastly overlooked.

There's a reason why I XP with RDM/BRD, and not RDM/BLM. A lot of people make rude comments about my choice of subjob, but the fact is, I've used both, and I prefer /BRD because on the whole, it makes my parties stronger than /BLM does. Sure, I don't do *my* job quite as well, but the tradeoff is that I make everyone else do their job better. Weaker me + stronger 5 other people is a win as far as I'm concerned.

(Kuddos on RDM/BRD thats one of the options I am currently exploring)

If your party were to give a slight effort to return the support, your personal character wont be weakened. Alot of classes have methods to assist eachother in differnt ways, which commonly stack. Helping eachother in parties would definatly make the partys more enjoyable it would be more productive to do so as well. This is why I am so conufused and distrubed by this. Why is it so hard for people to work together a bit more?

[Icemage]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

You're playing with the wrong crowd Hyrist. Good players understand these concepts implicitly. People always leave my parties with good experiences, because I make a very conscious effort to make sure that not only am *I* performing as best I can, but I try to make sure the party dynamics are good enough to ensure good chemistry, from a strong skillchain to opportunities for people to explore aspects of their job that don't always see the light of day (i.e. SMNs using their offensive BPs for skillchains).

It doesn't take "l33t" players to make a good XP party. All that's required is a little planning, a little forethought, minimal skill, and some communication to ensure that everyone knows what they should be doing and does it in a timely fashion. I actually had one poor soul ask me if I minded that he didn't have a scorpion harness.. *boggle*... are people REALLY this caught up in the Must Have Best Gear Or XP Will Suck mentality that they can't see that player skill and communication will more than make up for any lacking equipment?


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Hyrist, goodness, I always find your post refreshing, because just when I think of quitting the game, I see something retarded from you. Influences me to get to 75 and show the world that not every Red Mage is a retarded asshat that is the result of incest between two first cousins of some backwater state with chlorine run-off from the Honda factory upstream.

Icemage made some incredibly valid points, hell, I had a NIN tank in Bibiki bay tank W/O the SH. And he never lost hate, possibly due to pt setup, but the mobs never came back to where I was. Your MAIN problem is you have OCD, and you dont realize the priority of a RDMs job.

In my opinion, no matter what the situation or pt setup this is it-
A- Enhancing Party
B- Enfeebling mob
C- Magic Bursting/Nuking

Even if we cant enfeeble a mob, for instance, a party is in DIRE need of a RDM, so they invite us like 5 levels too low for the mob and our enfeebles dont stick like shit, we still have to Refresh, so I put enhancing first.

Enfeebling the mob can be anything as simple as doing what the NIN doesnt stick, or letting the BLM and/or WHM do what they feel can help them raise their skill and pick up their slack or even just making sure Gravity can help melee hit and keeps the soft mages safe for a few more seconds.

This is my experience. I have no clue what level you are, but lets see if you feel the same after facing Weapons and Pots in the sky. We have more magic skills than melee skills. CHRIST, we ONLY have Dagger and Sword, and none of our weapons have high enough base damage comparable to our abysmal skill to make a difference. Notice that PLDs have swords with damage in excess of 44, with their A skill, and even without Defender, they arent hitting the best.

I'm not sure how you even support melee, what with using staves and shit, or maybe since your obviously gimped in terms of gaming skill, vocabulary and obviously intelligence, its likely you dont use Elemental staves. I'm tired of seeing your opinions here, because you contribute nothing to the community of Red Mages we dilligantly work to build up, aside from showing them what NOT to do. In fact, I'm going to make a post, and ask for a Sticky. . .

"What Not To Do When You're a RDM" and I'll just make a link to every post you put here and your insane propaganda that was well received on Alla.

Not sure what you take us as, but we don't do blind assumptions and take speculation as fact when we do our jobs. The Red Mages here are concerned with taking the facts and learning how to do out jobs better. Deciding to melee or not to melee is a moot point, and the fact is, it doesnt help when done correctly, and hurts insanely when done wrong. So why even waste time?

Oh and furthermore, you claim that the way many Red Mages play is selfish, yet we can see you advocating Red Mage Meleeing in exp.

Granted the pld probley did less damage than he would have using spirits, however the skillchain hate falls on him, which helps, and through the magic bursts, either the mob will die faster, or stronger debuffs would be placed on him. A much wider ban of benifit then utalized before.

What can a PLD possibly do for a SC? Make Scission with the BLM, make Fusion with the WHM? The melees can make Light/Dark much faster than the PLD can. A THF with a SAM can do SCs twice, once with SA and once with TA, with only 30 seconds in-between, and with a THF doing in excess of 1k damage on DE or doing over 1.5k damage combined with Sharkbite and the resulting light. Hell, if a THF does TA onto the Tank while doing Sharkbite, then the PLD, god forbid, shouldnt NEED to SC to keep hate.

Find me a PLD that cant keep hate after having a nice fat Light Skillchain ended with Sharkbite placed on them, and I'll give you someone as stupid as you.

Almost every job now shuns stragities and oppertunities that would help their parties preforme better as a whole, for stronger benifits to themselves.

The truth is that focusing so much inwardly to improve JUST your main duities as a job may in fact harm your cause as opposed to hurt it. I really do beleive that the party-co-operation factor lately has been vastly overlooked.

Since when does a THF seeking how to get TP faster or do more damage on SATA a selfish act. THFs are made to place hate. Likewise, when has it been the case for Melee's stacking gear worth millions stingy? If anything, Melees trying to take out he mob faster is BENEFICIAL to the party.

Beneficial \Ben`e*fi"cial\, a. [Cf. F. b['e]n['e]ficial, LL.
beneficialis.]
1. Conferring benefits; useful; profitable; helpful;
advantageous; serviceable; contributing to a valuable end;

See: "RDM Not Soloing in PT."

You're out of your league. Please return to Alla and distribute your propaganda there.

[lionx]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

I think people are taking Hyrist's post the wrong way. What he means is probably while the standard subjobs are well used and a good reason to, we need to keep an open mind of other subjobs as well. RDM/BRD used to be never heard of, now a few people use it, and its been proven to work out nice. Keep your options open, know what your sub does.

Like a MNK, most dont tank, you can TRY to make them tank and if you do well who knows what happens? NIN used to be the same way, not a tank and considered useless, now its a capable tank by player means. I think what he is trying to say is keep your mind open, try things out when you can, and step on new grounds if possible.

I hope that made sense and i hope thats what he means, because thats what i get out of all his posts while everyone just disagrees. Keeping an open mind can make things more interesting. That by no means, mean that you sub SMN to a WAR for exping, but keep in mind that some subjobs might actually have some application some way, and it might be good to see what it can do when applied to your current job and maybe we can find out different things that we might have missed.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Sure but thats one aspect of many. A blm has a much higher elemental skill rating then ours, why arent they managing the elemental debuffs. Same with drk.

Who says they shouldn't?

Of course I am going to include a part of our job in the dicussion. Especially one so hotly debated. Melee IS a benfit when used correctly, as catalist tool.

Heres an example between introverson and extroverson:

Introverson: PLD mid level uses Spirits Within to maintain hate through the exp party.
Benifits: PLD maintains hate.

Extroverson: Pld closes skillchain with secondary melee character.
Benifits: PLD maintains hate. Skillchian opens new magic bursting oppertunity.

Granted the pld probley did less damage than he would have using spirits, however the skillchain hate falls on him, which helps, and through the magic bursts, either the mob will die faster, or stronger debuffs would be placed on him. A much wider ban of benifit then utalized before.

Sorry, but I don't see how RDM meleeing fit into this picture. 1) RDM will not build up enough TP to be in a skillchain 2) a RDM would contribute more by MB off the skillchain

But it shouldent be just our job souly to help the party work better. Almost every job now shuns stragities and oppertunities that would help their parties preforme better as a whole, for stronger benifits to themselves.

The truth is that focusing so much inwardly to improve JUST your main duities as a job may in fact harm your cause as opposed to hurt it. I really do beleive that the party-co-operation factor lately has been vastly overlooked.

Wait, wasn't your whole opening argument about doing things to benefit the party? Now you are saying we should do things to benefit ourselves just because more and more other people are doing it?

If your party were to give a slight effort to return the support, your personal character wont be weakened. Alot of classes have methods to assist eachother in differnt ways, which commonly stack. Helping eachother in parties would definatly make the partys more enjoyable it would be more productive to do so as well. This is why I am so conufused and distrubed by this. Why is it so hard for people to work together a bit more?

I agree, everyone should work together to contribute to the party as a whole. Everyone needs to bring their 100% game, but rarely do you find enough players now a days to bring that dedication. But just because they don't doesn't mean you have to dumb yourself down as well.
You bring your game always and as you party with more and more people, hopefully they'll see it and word will spread to others who share your dedication.

Double Post Edited:

I think people are taking Hyrist's post the wrong way. What he means is probably while the standard subjobs are well used and a good reason to, we need to keep an open mind of other subjobs as well. RDM/BRD used to be never heard of, now a few people use it, and its been proven to work out nice. Keep your options open, know what your sub does.

The good RDMs have everything ready to be subbed and know when to use them. This is not a new concept.

[Sepukku]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

There's a tanking MNK JP on Midgardsmor who's pretty pimped at it. Arhat's Gi+1, Arhat's Headgear-thingy+1. HQ Darksteel Subligar, Mittens, and Leggings (-% damage), Terra Staff with capped staff, HQ enemity earrings.

SMN's using Avatars melee BP's never works for the SMNs I PT with, Either the SMNs and/or the other SC partner are too retarded to pull it off. This is why I dont want to invite SMNs as much as some people dont want to invite Dragoon's.

[lionx]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

The good RDMs have everything ready to be subbed and know when to use them. This is not a new concept.

No its not, but the RDM/BRD is one. i remember when people were saying BRD sj sucked at everything, now its certainetly proving to be not the case. I am sure everyone knows WHM and BLM should be subbed, however there are other subs that people can use that although might look wierd, might actually have a good application to things if done right(not limited to exp). I think that Hyrist said, just to keep an open mind about things that are not generally accepted, and that its not always the standard subs that can be useful.

Do you see where i am getting at? x_x

[neighbortaru]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

no, /brd isn't new (well, at least not to me). it's just not used very often (and probably the reason why people make comments).

i see what you are trying to say, but Hyrist's point is a little bit obscure. He contradicts himself.

[Hyrist]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

I think people are taking Hyrist's post the wrong way.

This is exactily whats happened, it was a mistake to even try to post this consirn. Everyond took it as either propaganda to rdm meleeing or completly went off the wrong direction. Icemage did a better job of stating it. I should have left melee out of this discussion as people are conusmed with that stupid debate beyond all other points.

What can a PLD possibly do for a SC? Make Scission with the BLM, make Fusion with the WHM? The melees can make Light/Dark much faster than the PLD can. A THF with a SAM can do SCs twice, once with SA and once with TA, with only 30 seconds in-between, and with a THF doing in excess of 1k damage on DE or doing over 1.5k damage combined with Sharkbite and the resulting light. Hell, if a THF does TA onto the Tank while doing Sharkbite, then the PLD, god forbid, shouldnt NEED to SC to keep hate.

You took the the entierty of my post, and warped it to your own perverted image to think I was trying to propganda rdm melee. I said paladin skillchaining with a secondary melee. I dont care who really. The point is I'm luckey to see 2 skillchain sets in the party when 3 should be easy to obtain, especially if there is a SAM in the party.

For the rest of this discussion, leave red mage melee out of the picture. Its mearly a fragment of a larger consirn here that bothering me severily about this game. And maybe, JUST MAYBE you'll really get the point of this tread

The good RDMs have everything ready to be subbed and know when to use them. This is not a new concept.

Then why isnt it an applied consept through all jobs? If everyone agrees that party co-operative play is somthing benifital to the party.

(Reguarding BLM and DRK Specific Enfeebles Who says they shouldn't?

Its not a question if they should or shouldent, its if they do or not. And quite frankly, they dont. I've gotten as much as hear a drk say absorb spells are a complete waste time. Or a Blm say its the RDMs duity to elemental debuff.

i see what you are trying to say, but Hyrist's point is a little bit obscure. He contradicts himself.

Usually I would review my post several times in a Word File for spelling, clarification. Cause I like to show 'arguments to the opposed'. As it were. It helps streamline discussion and keep things to the point.

Unfortunatly I've changed my OS and do not have access to Microsoft Word. And wont for a good while. My posts have suffered alot form it, as I can tell from the reaction to this thread.

I'll find another program to spell check and revew my posts in the meantime. I am sorry for the confusion.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

sounds to me like your real beef is the lack of players who know what their jobs are supposed to do and play in a team. /welcome to the club.

[Hyrist]

Re: Player Introvision: A Hyristian Observation

Thanks. Thats sorta it. But I honestly think that alot of the 'propaganda' and guides need to work on stressing copperation with your party members. It just seems that the last few generations of players have completly ignored this aspect of the job, and thats whats causing so many problems for them.

I know alot of endgame players and HNM lses that do the job right and really do know the meaning of co-operative play. And by no means am I saying that its wrong to have a focus. But I do beleive its wrong to be so consumed with your focus that you forget the reason why you focus in the first place, and theres a line which you shouldent cross between that focuse, and aiding your party.

Me, I'm still expirmenting that line for myself, cause theres one in either direction of that debate. Either way I'm going to post my findings when I'm done and I may end up eating a bit a humble pie when I do. But I am ok with that. There's stragities that I want to test out myself that I think might be benifical to both the RDM community as a whole and on the small party to party scale.

Dispite WishMaster3K's opinion of me I'm quite the stratigist nutcase. My fiance is also a psycology student. Both of us have been thinking of ways to help improve the community. (Not that we expect two people to completly change the face of FFXI, but two people thinking on it dosent hurt one bit) We both agree that the current general attitude of players nowadays is seriously harming the game's enjoyment and the players' functonalities.

Put in short: We're more likley to spit and aruge lately than we are to just let us have our seperate opinions and work towards a mutual solutions. And I truley beleive its the support classes that get the worst of it.

I dont know if anyone else has noticed it on other servers, but my fiance and I have noticed a large drop of RDMs exping in parties lately. They've either moved on to new jobs, quit, or even some have started soloing for exp. (Thanks to that new exp system).

I wanted to state it aloud on forums that I though I would be more receptive (Oh, thank you WishMaster3K for your respectful insight btw. /sarcasim) and responsive to this, and may have a few solutions of their own to post.