Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Sorry after a certain lvl, I don't even consider it an option. I consider it a handicap to have a meleeing rdm. To each their own.

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

If I'm on the 5th floor of a building and I need to get downstairs to my car I can jump out the window to get down there faster. That's an option too. Doesn't make it a good one.

Getting tired of this. I've debated my point logically and pointed out all the positives. I have accepeted negatives posted, however no one seems to consider any positives at all. So I'm doing a dissecting response this time.

You still have not explained why you would bother to provide 10 extra damage per fight for ~200mp per hour (15 casts of enspells at 3 minutes each per hour, assuming you don't keep it up religiously if you ever bother to try this). This damage doesn't scale at all if you have extra MP, and takes an inordinate amount of additional concentration to make sure you don't equip the wrong weapons. Barring this basic premise, any following arguments are moot, since there is no practical application.

But you are still dealing damage. Dealing damage without submitting TP. No it won't make a deep impact...it's not supposed to be a game breaking idea like Utsusemi tanking Ninjas. Yes it can be used to skill up during an EXP PT. It's an option...it does not have to be taken.

Let me give you a hint. Want to do damage without giving any TP, guaranteed? Add Poison II to your spell rotation.

This is humorous. Any RDM that sits and casts Enspells and overwrites them for 200MP to make Convert better is an out right idiot. Did I say Enspell over Blizzard? Please...point out where I said that exact statement. I said when you should be casting a better spell...you should. Blizzard also costs double what Enspells do...if I wanted to lower my MP faster, I'd spam Blizzard. 1.5 seconds is piddly compared to double the cost. The cost of the spells is there to show you that 12 mp is relatively minimal and of no real value. The recast time is obviously not much of an issue and perhaps I shouldn't have included it. After all...you can recast Blizzard after 11.5 seconds, but recasting an Enspell before it expires is retarded. As for a complete waste of MP...no. A complete waste of MP is not using MP. Even if the 12 mp does 1 damage, it's still doing damage. Unused MP is a waste of MP. If a mob is Skillchained, and you do not magic burst...that is a complete waste of MP.

200mp per hour for maaybe 250-300 damage, vs. spending that 200mp on nukes for 300-600 damage isn't a waste of MP?

And your enlightement...doesn't help your argument. 2-8 damage of no TP. If your spell is fully resisted to said 2-8 damage, the mob still gains TP. Enspell is great vs Elementals but no one levels off them. Enspells are fine for solo and do very little in EXP PT. This is fact. I'm not denying it. I am saying however that very little is still something.

Reference my suggestion for Poison II, above.

End game...that's all you fight for meripo. Evens and Toughs. Against VT+ yes Red mages need to know their limitations and adjust accordingly. This is statement of fact again.

Are you really level 71? Do you even know anyone who is working on merit points? You fight VTs-ITs at level 75 for merit points. Anything less is not worthwhile. NO ONE fights EM/T for merits in a party,

Edit: My mistake... 5 TP per hit, 9-10 TP per spell.

...

Already editted my last post

...and your edited numbers are still wrong. Minimum TP gain per hit for players is 5. Minimum TP gain for monsters (not counting the effects of things like Subtle Blow) per hit is therefore 8.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I'm sick of arguing so this is it.

READ AND UNDERSTAND:

IT...IS...AN...OPTION

Not a good option, not the best option, but get this you listening? IT IS AN OPTION.

Seriously...that's the only thing I'm trying to tell you. IT IS AN OPTION.

Well, sure its an option...casting ga spells when you'r surrounded by other non-aggroing mobs is an option, but its also pretty stupid.
And you werent just saying it was an option, but that it could be beneficial. If you're doing less than 10 dmg to a mob with piss poor meleeing gear, then you've prolly managed to connect what? 2, maybe 3 times the whole fight? And from what everyone is saying that would be pushing it. So, if you do an average of 8 dmg and connect three times, youve done 24 dmg. At this lvl, 24 dmg in one hit is total crap. Not to mention, by the end of a fight, everyone is going all out to try and finish the mob. Odds are terrible that the mob will get hit to less than 24 points of dmg before the last shot does him in. Usually the shot that kills the mob is a bit of overkill. And assuming you got lucky and the melee DD gets it to less than 24 hp before it dies and you werent melee'ing it the whole fight, then it takes what, 1.5 seconds before someone else hits it and it dies? Is it really worth that 1.5 seconds you MIGHT be able to kill the mob faster to risk missing a MB or curing just a second too late b/c you were busy watching your char swing or your screen froze for just a second too long from everything going on and you being right in the middle of it whiffing away?

[Hyrist]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

;o RDMs can melee decently, as long they keep up with debuffs and buffs... maybe a few cures. I've seen them WS for 100-200 dmg ontop of the dmg over time... aint so bad.

BRP are you in danger of actually listening to the things I say?

Anyways. If they nerfed our sword rating, or even our dagger rating, there would be an uproar. Our B ratings alow us to solo even up to tough alone and still do deicently with it. However it is just below the ease of letting it pass for a Party situation.

Its funny hearing me say this as I am studying RDM Melee in exp parties as a possiblity, but honestly untill I find the method of making it work 'good enough for goverment work' I still say that most RDMs' who dont want to break their back at their job, just just put the sword and dagger away in EXP situations.

Enough skill stats and spells have been taken away from the class because of the addition of Refresh Dispel and Convert. The class in itself, though appears exceptional, actually is borderline broken in alot of ways. I am actually FOR making additional assistances to RDM melee so the 'bad melee rdms' would have an easier shot at preforming well.

My current idea specifically was to add status effect to enspells, much like spike spells have a chance at inflicting effects. This way enspelling and meleeing would up the chance adding new ways of keeping debuffs on mobs, that would realate more to the 'magical fencer' style that was origonally potrayed in the beginning conseptions of the game. However, thats just wishful thinking.

I dont beleive Nerfing Sword is a wise idea, you'll kill RDM's soloing abilities, which is a defining trait of the job.

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

...and your edited numbers are still wrong. Minimum TP gain per hit for players is 5. Minimum TP gain for monsters (not counting the effects of things like Subtle Blow) per hit is therefore 8.


Icemage

And this proves it has been WAY too long since you last meleed. You receive 2 TP per hit, 1 TP if the monster has subtle blow. Don't believe me? Turn off Blink, Stoneskin, and Phalanx and get hit. You will not gain 5 TP...you will gain 2.

And because you all get that it is an option, although not a good one. Guess what? I proved my point. It's an option. And because you all agree it is an option, not a very good one, but one none-the-less, I don't have hafta prove jack diddly squat more. Thank you

[Hyrist]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I see RDM melee debates are heated everywhere...

Its up to the individual RDM and the party that tolerates or dosent tolerate it. And with the new update, heck, maybe the Melee RDM will Party with their fellows or with 2 friends and their fellows. A half NPC party seems intresting to me, and that means less people to convince about melee, and less real life people to suffer from it. Everyone wins.

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

And this proves it has been WAY too long since you last meleed. You receive 2 TP per hit, 1 TP if the monster has subtle blow. Don't believe me? Turn off Blink, Stoneskin, and Phalanx and get hit. You will not gain 5 TP...you will gain 2.

And because you all get that it is an option, although not a good one. Guess what? I proved my point. It's an option. And because you all agree it is an option, not a very good one, but one none-the-less, I don't have hafta prove jack diddly squat more. Thank you

Monsters give players 2 TP per hit when they hit us with physical attacks, and 5 TP per damage-dealing spell.

WE give MONSTERS (Our TP Gain + 3) when WE hit THEM. Am I speaking too slowly for you? Go do your research before you start spouting senseless babble.


Icemage

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Yea like 10TP landed per nuke is gonna make a difference...so melee anyway! Hey that extra 5 TP per hit you land won't make much of a difference. Point is everyone in the world makes it out to be a big deal.

Edit: My mistake... 5 TP per hit, 9-10 TP per spell.

Apparently you missed this.

I corrected my post shortly after. 9-10 is from Vinen's post (go ahead and read it...he said 10TP). Maybe you should read my post again after I post edit.

This part was a miscommunication, but I apologize for my comment. And finally...please correct this part of one of your posts. It contridicts you

...and your edited numbers are still wrong. Minimum TP gain per hit for players is 5. Minimum TP gain for monsters (not counting the effects of things like Subtle Blow) per hit is therefore 8.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

And because you all get that it is an option, although not a good one. Guess what? I proved my point. It's an option. And because you all agree it is an option, not a very good one, but one none-the-less, I don't have hafta prove jack diddly squat more. Thank you

You didn't prove a thing to me. I know a rdm can melee. I'm pretty sure everyone else does too. LOL Now if you can prove to me that their melee'ing is an actual benefit to a party and not just to themselves (following the parameters of it being in the upper lvls), then you have proven something to me. But since thats impossible, I won't hold my breath. LOL

I see RDM melee debates are heated everywhere...

Its up to the individual RDM and the party that tolerates or dosent tolerate it. And with the new update, heck, maybe the Melee RDM will Party with their fellows or with 2 friends and their fellows. A half NPC party seems intresting to me, and that means less people to convince about melee, and less real life people to suffer from it. Everyone wins.

{Yes, please!} take all the piss poor meleeing rdms and let them party with themselves and their pets! Then they can stop ruining my exp pts! LOL

[Hyrist]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Hey, if it works, I'll be happy too, when I feel like backlining, I can EXP witha group of people, when I want to melee, I can group with a couple friends and a bunch of fellows. Sounds like the game is improving Finally.

Still, it wont stop my investigations any, just gives me more fun work to do.

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

You didn't prove a thing to me. I know a rdm can melee. I'm pretty sure everyone else does too. LOL Now if you can prove to me that their melee'ing is an actual benefit to a party and not just to themselves (following the parameters of it being in the upper lvls), then you have proven something to me. But since thats impossible, I won't hold my breath. LOL

I proved a viable yet ineffective way for a RDM to melee in an experience party. I did not say it was beneficial, effective, super good, game breaking, the zomg wtfpwnz0r method, or unstoppable. That was my goal. Quit focusing on the tree and look at the forest.

Also...you might want to reword your statement...you didn't say Experience Party.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I proved a viable yet ineffective way for a RDM to melee in an experience party. I did not say it was beneficial, effective, super good, game breaking, the zomg wtfpwnz0r method, or unstoppable. That was my goal. Quit focusing on the tree and look at the forest.

Also...you might want to reword your statement...you didn't say Experience Party.

And your missing the point. The point is there is no beneficial way for a rdm to melee in a party. Thats the point that was being made throughout this entire thread. It was pointed out in the lower lvls they are decent melee but that after refresh they start to lose that edge and it only gets worse. No one cares about coming up with some way for them to do some piddling dmg to a mob when they can do more by standing back. Proving that they can be beneficial to a party by meleeing is the entire point and your only proving our point with your rants.

Oh and I don't need to reword anything because I think we are all fairly intelligent and understand what we are discussing....unless you need it reworded?

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Apparently you missed this.

I corrected my post shortly after. 9-10 is from Vinen's post (go ahead and read it...he said 10TP). Maybe you should read my post again after I post edit.

This part was a miscommunication, but I apologize for my comment. And finally...please correct this part of one of your posts. It contridicts you

You STILL do not understand. When we are hit by monsters for damage, we gain 2TP per physical attack. When they cast spells which damage us, they give us 5TP per spell.

When we hit them with a physical attack that deals damage, we gain a minimum of 5 TP. Since they gain what we do, +3, the minimum TP gain per attack landed on a monster is *8* without Subtle Blow.

When we hit them with spells that deal damage, they gain a flat 10 TP.

I have personally tested all of these conditions. Have you?


Icemage

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I'd prefer it reworded purely because later people will misinterpret it and they'll call you an idiot. You post logically and I'd hate to see a small not very important word, but still important enough discredit you.

Double Post Edited:

You STILL do not understand. When we are hit by monsters for damage, we gain 2TP per physical attack. When they cast spells which damage us, they give us 5TP per spell.

When we hit them with a physical attack that deals damage, we gain a minimum of 5 TP. Since they gain what we do, +3, the minimum TP gain per attack landed on a monster is *8* without Subtle Blow.

When we hit them with spells that deal damage, they gain a flat 10 TP.

I have personally tested all of these conditions. Have you?


Icemage

Now had you said that before...we could ignored all the stupid name calling and stupidity flying around for about 5 posts. I was misinformed and humbly apologize

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Sorry to sound off on you there, but after 3 misunderstood posts my frustration level was peaking.

Considering the toping of discussion along those lines was referencing specifically the TP gained by monsters, I would have thought that neighbortaru's posted formula would have been more than sufficient to indicate which numbers were under discussion, for anyone following this thread.

Since it became obvious that you were not following the discussion, I spelled it out explicitly above.


Icemage