Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

[tazirai]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Ok stay away from JP/NA things as much as possible.
Even if you had HORRENDUS JP PT's (which are rare), OR met SUCKY NA RDM's(Osaka and Reichan in my LS is a RDM and NA, but there are some pretty bad ones).
Even though we all see what we want to see. Lets stick to the fact that RDM"S Meleeing past a certain level will not benefit the PT.
JP or NA.
Sheesh!

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Ok stay away from JP/NA things as much as possible.
Even if you had HORRENDUS JP PT's (which are rare), OR met SUCKY NA RDM's(Osaka and Reichan in my LS is a RDM and NA, but there are some pretty bad ones).

JP or NA.
Sheesh!

Please note I said in my post "There are good and bad players on both sides of the fence." Your pointing out that it is "rare" to have a bad pt with JP's is violating your own post.

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I don't think I'm being understood too well. No sarcasm, no anger here. I'm not saying RDMs should go out and purchase insane Damage Dealing only gear. I'm not saying RDMs should swap huge amount of gear for that as well...that's a waste of macros. I'm saying that your standard RDM in a pt (standard accepted equipment) just smack around the mob with a ceremonial dagger or a bee stinger. Even if they miss...it doesn't matter and if they hit, all their damage is en damage which gives no TP. The main complaint with meleeing RDMs is they don't do their mage job and are giving the mob TP while dealing minimal damage. If you're fully decked out in your mage gear and swapping staves, that's fine. As I said before, you're not switching to pure melee. Also you're dealing 0 damage so TP isn't an issue either. As for MP wasting...En spells cost 12mp each. It's not that expensive (12 seconds of Refresh and it's back)and obviously if there is a better use of the MP, they should use it. It's not a drastic damage increase, but it is still a damage increase none-the-less

[tazirai]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Please note I said in my post "There are good and bad players on both sides of the fence." Your pointing out that it is "rare" to have a bad pt with JP's is violating your own post.

I wasnt poiting you out Grandmom( feels good to have one ^^).
I just didnt want the topic to turn into
"JP OWNZ"
"NA ONRY"
type of topic.
I didnt violate my own post if you read it carefully.

I pointed out both sides are equal, and even followed up by mentioning two of my LS members being NA and RDM's.

It seems to me that whenever JP gets mentioned no matter what its followed by.

"Ive been in many bad JP parties!"

Im just saying to both sides we see things differently and no need to get huffy about our "favored" allegiance's.

thats all.

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I don't think I'm being understood too well. No sarcasm, no anger here. I'm not saying RDMs should go out and purchase insane Damage Dealing only gear. I'm not saying RDMs should swap huge amount of gear for that as well...that's a waste of macros. I'm saying that your standard RDM in a pt (standard accepted equipment) just smack around the mob with a ceremonial dagger or a bee stinger. Even if they miss...it doesn't matter and if they hit, all their damage is en damage which gives no TP. The main complaint with meleeing RDMs is they don't do their mage job and are giving the mob TP while dealing minimal damage. If you're fully decked out in your mage gear and swapping staves, that's fine. As I said before, you're not switching to pure melee. Also you're dealing 0 damage so TP isn't an issue either. As for MP wasting...En spells cost 12mp each. It's not that expensive (12 seconds of Refresh and it's back)and obviously if there is a better use of the MP, they should use it. It's not a drastic damage increase, but it is still a damage increase none-the-less

Mmm... Enspells do really, really, really bad damage against VT to IT++ enemies. I'm talking single digit damage.

Sure, I *guess* if you wanted to spend the time, engage, swap to a ceremonial dagger, cast an Enspell, and attempt to tickle it with the add damage, it wouldn't really hurt (other than the 12 mp every 3 minutes, which isn't much of an expenditure), as long as you aren't in range of some nasty AoE like Jamming Wave, Dream Flower, or Cursed Sphere. But why? The total damage per fight will end up being less than you'd deal with a single nuke tossed out on a magic burst, and the added aggravation of constantly swapping weapons will undoubtedly degrade your efficiency.


Icemage

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

But why? The total damage per fight will end up being less than you'd deal with a single nuke tossed out on a magic burst

Cause the nuke adds TP to the monster and you can still preform said nuke while dealing minimal damage.

[Vinen]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Cause the nuke adds TP to the monster and you can still preform said nuke while dealing minimal damage.

Yes, like 10TP per landed nuke is going to make a real differnce on a XP monster. Have you even played RDM?...and no leveling it to 37 for a SJ doesn't count.

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Cause the nuke adds TP to the monster and you can still preform said nuke while dealing minimal damage.

Avoiding giving TP is important, but not at the cost of not killing the monster faster. At level 54 RDM I MB even Blizzard I on Robber Crabs for ~135 damage. Do you have ANY idea how many successful hits it would take with Enthunder or Enblizzard to deal that much damage on an IT enemy? It sure doesn't seem like it.

Let me put it this way. Blizzard I nets me ~100 damage on an Robber Crab at level 54, ~50 on a half-resist (common), plus or minus a few points based on if I remember to swap in all my int gear while casting. Blizzard I costs 30mp.

Enblizzard costs 12MP. In the duration of one cast (3 minutes), I might land 4 hits for a sum total of 16 ice damage. Maybe. On a good day.

The difference? I can recast Blizzard or Thunder and get that same damage again (or if I'm feeling frisky, Chainspell it). I can't do that with an Enspell.

Like Vinen asks above, have you ever played red mage to realize just how much gear swapping is necessary even for basic functioning, much less trying to swap in and out while swinging and casting? What you are suggesting is that the double handful of damage for the invested 12 mp for an enspell is worth the effort of swapping a weapon in or out in between casts, and it just isn't true.


Icemage

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Yes, like 10TP per landed nuke is going to make a real differnce on a XP monster. Have you even played RDM?...and no leveling it to 37 for a SJ doesn't count.

Level 41 Redmage and SMN to 59 as you see...and yes I am quite sure how much gear swapping is neccessary. Swap INT gear for Intelligence based enfeebles, staff swaps for spell base, MND swap for Paralyze and Slow, Dark Staff swap for resting. Just cause my main is MNK does not mean I'm a brain dead melee with no spell caster intelligence.

And again you people don't listen. I did not say abadonn all faith ye whom enter and melee like that stupid newb in Valkurm. Why do you people keep thinking I'm encouraging that thought? Are you that much drawn into the fact you're a Red MAGE that melee weapons will forever taint your glove?

Yea like 10TP landed per nuke is gonna make a difference...so melee anyway! Hey that extra 5 TP per hit you land won't make much of a difference. Point is everyone in the world makes it out to be a big deal.

Yes spell damage is superior...if it is not resisted. A resisted spell still gives full TP so long as it does 1 damage. En damage gives 0 TP period.

Honestly...why the hell do you people keep thinking I'm promoting for all RDMs to friggin melee? It's 12MP...whoop-dee-doo. Blizzard costs 30 and both have same casting time. Blizzard also has 1.5 more seconds of cooldown. Also do you realize how often you level off monsters without a PbAoE? Considering Crabs are the mainstay for a while...they have AoE. Worms have AoE, Skeletons AoE, Weapons have AoE, Lizards have AoE, Pugils have AoE, Flies have AoE. The only things that people level off without AoE that I can pull off the top of my head are: Raptors (breath attack, no standing behind DDs or tanks), Crawlers (same boat as Raptors), Couerls, Beetles, and Bats (their AoE is of minimal concern). Even non-damaging AoE can be fatal for a meleeing RDM (Goobbue's Antiphase, Mandragora's Dream Flower, Tiger's Roar, Cockatrice's Int Down isn't that helpful either).

Jeez...I look deep into everything and I'm not saying melee is the end all be all. I'm just saying vs certain mobs, meleeing with an en spell is not "Zomg! He's making teh mob super 1337!", that if everyone's refreshed, the mob is debuffed, that you have the option to walk over and attempt a stab. You can stay back and cast if you want...hey fine, no problem with it. I'm merely pointing out another option

Edit: My mistake... 5 TP per hit, 9-10 TP per spell.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

mob TP gained is your TP+3 btw, not 2.

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

And again you miss the point. Sure, it's "possible" to melee without giving TP by equipping a 1 damage ceremonial dagger or other weak weapon and dropping some enspell damage, but your logic is horribly flawed.

I have nothing special against wielding a melee weapon from time to time, when the circumstances permit, but those circumstances are very rare. The thing we're trying to tell you is that there is zero tangible benefit to doing so even when circumstances permit, unless you just want to pick up a bit of skill for when you're solo. The damage you wll deal is so neglible that it will not impact the length of any battle in any significant way when fighting any enemy above Tough.

Why is it hard for you to understand that casting an enspell in XP parties is a *complete waste of MP*? You state that Enblizzard has a lower cooldown than Blizzard I. So? Recasting Enblizzard on yourself does what, exactly? Nothing. If you've got 200mp and a Convert timer about to come up, are you going to sit there and spam Enspells just because it has a lower recast time than an appropriate nuke?

You go on to argue that nukes can be resisted. Well, let me enlighten you further - Enspell damage is even more often resisted than nukes are against enemies above Tough, even if you choose an Enspell element that it is nominally weak to (all that generally means is that you deal 2-8 damage instead of 0-1).

The worst part about it, is that some fresh out of the box FFXI player could read your post and find some sort of justification for becoming the sort of "red warrior" all of us love to hate.

Against Even Match, or slightly Tough enemies? Sure, knock yourself out and melee to your heart's content. Against VT+ enemies, red mages need to know their limitations and adjust their play style accordingly.

EDIT: Neighbortaru's figure of Your TP Gain + 3 = TP gained by enemy monsters on a successful damage-dealing physical attack is correct, by the way.


Icemage

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

And again you miss the point. Sure, it's "possible" to melee without giving TP by equipping a 1 damage ceremonial dagger or other weak weapon and dropping some enspell damage, but your logic is horribly flawed.

Getting tired of this. I've debated my point logically and pointed out all the positives. I have accepeted negatives posted, however no one seems to consider any positives at all. So I'm doing a dissecting response this time.

I have nothing special against wielding a melee weapon from time to time, when the circumstances permit, but those circumstances are very rare.

YES! You get the point! Did you read the mobs I listed? The last one of those you fight I believe are Processionaires in Boyahda Tree up to about 64/65ish. I'm not saying it's an open window every three seconds to be jumped through.

The thing we're trying to tell you is that there is zero tangible benefit to doing so even when circumstances permit, unless you just want to pick up a bit of skill for when you're solo. The damage you wll deal is so neglible that it will not impact the length of any battle in any significant way when fighting any enemy above Tough.

But you are still dealing damage. Dealing damage without submitting TP. No it won't make a deep impact...it's not supposed to be a game breaking idea like Utsusemi tanking Ninjas. Yes it can be used to skill up during an EXP PT. It's an option...it does not have to be taken.

Why is it hard for you to understand that casting an enspell in XP parties is a *complete waste of MP*? You state that Enblizzard has a lower cooldown than Blizzard I. So? Recasting Enblizzard on yourself does what, exactly? Nothing. If you've got 200mp and a Convert timer about to come up, are you going to sit there and spam Enspells just because it has a lower recast time than an appropriate nuke?

This is humorous. Any RDM that sits and casts Enspells and overwrites them for 200MP to make Convert better is an out right idiot. Did I say Enspell over Blizzard? Please...point out where I said that exact statement. I said when you should be casting a better spell...you should. Blizzard also costs double what Enspells do...if I wanted to lower my MP faster, I'd spam Blizzard. 1.5 seconds is piddly compared to double the cost. The cost of the spells is there to show you that 12 mp is relatively minimal and of no real value. The recast time is obviously not much of an issue and perhaps I shouldn't have included it. After all...you can recast Blizzard after 11.5 seconds, but recasting an Enspell before it expires is retarded. As for a complete waste of MP...no. A complete waste of MP is not using MP. Even if the 12 mp does 1 damage, it's still doing damage. Unused MP is a waste of MP. If a mob is Skillchained, and you do not magic burst...that is a complete waste of MP.

You go on to argue that nukes can be resisted. Well, let me enlighten you further - Enspell damage is even more often resisted than nukes are against enemies above Tough, even if you choose an Enspell element that it is nominally weak to (all that generally means is that you deal 2-8 damage instead of 0-1).

And your enlightement...doesn't help your argument. 2-8 damage of no TP. If your spell is fully resisted to said 2-8 damage, the mob still gains TP. Enspell is great vs Elementals but no one levels off them. Enspells are fine for solo and do very little in EXP PT. This is fact. I'm not denying it. I am saying however that very little is still something.

The worst part about it, is that some fresh out of the box FFXI player could read your post and find some sort of justification for becoming the sort of "red warrior" all of us love to hate.

This I agree with. However, the fresh out of the box FFXI player should also note that I say in nearly every one of my posts that this is not a call out to go and be a melee damage dealer. And even if he does, he only has himself to blame for not fully reading my posts.

Against Even Match, or slightly Tough enemies? Sure, knock yourself out and melee to your heart's content. Against VT+ enemies, red mages need to know their limitations and adjust their play style accordingly.

End game...that's all you fight for meripo. Evens and Toughs. Against VT+ yes Red mages need to know their limitations and adjust accordingly. This is statement of fact again.

EDIT: Neighbortaru's figure of Your TP Gain + 3 = TP gained by enemy monsters on a successful damage-dealing physical attack is correct, by the way.


Icemage

Already editted my last post

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I'm sorry but Icemage makes a better point. There is little to no benefit for rdm's to melee after a certain point. To me, its only selfishness that makes them want to keep melee'ing. Since the game is team based, I see no room for selfish people. Also your rdm is lvl 41 so you just got refresh. When you hit 60+, you'll see the point Icemage is making.

End game...that's all you fight for meripo. Evens and Toughs. Against VT+ yes Red mages need to know their limitations and adjust accordingly. This is statement of fact again.

Well if your still 71 as your signature indicates, then you really don't know that you don't have to fight just T's and VT's for merits. I fight IT's also and get good exp. At least 10k a session and I have a restricted schedule.

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I'm sick of arguing so this is it.

READ AND UNDERSTAND:

IT...IS...AN...OPTION

Not a good option, not the best option, but get this you listening? IT IS AN OPTION.

Seriously...that's the only thing I'm trying to tell you. IT IS AN OPTION.

[Vinen]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I'm sick of arguing so this is it.

READ AND UNDERSTAND:

IT...IS...AN...OPTION

Not a good option, not the best option, but get this you listening? IT IS AN OPTION.

Seriously...that's the only thing I'm trying to tell you. IT IS AN OPTION.

You were pushing it like it was gods gift to Red Mages earlier heh~. You are wrong.