Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

[tazirai]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Just this once I must agree with the majority. Red Mage bad rep comes mainly from..

Red mage/ I think im a ninja-warrior, attacking to much and not doing their absolute best..

I used to melee pre/post refresh and found it to be absolutely not worth it, Someimtes I would swing near the end of the PT or last chain, otherwise im doing my best to support the PT.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

The bottomline is I'm a much better RDM standing back. My sword and dagger skills are maxed out, but I achieved that with ease by going on skill-up PTs in the sky.

In this game, you can do whatever you want. Having said that I enjoy PTs where everyone does their best to maximize everyone's experience.

Exactly, it boils down to most people want max exp in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of effort. That means rdms stay back and cast. I found out the hard way I'm more efficient in the background, not that I like it there but thats the way it has to be.

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

we got the luxury to use our sword when soloing/farming however ^^ which is very efficient.

check out apple pie's movie, link from this page. http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...d.php?p=483427

[Ka1'E1]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

*snip*
Over all I've met more good Rdms than the bad one (well because I group mainly with JPs anyway)*snap*

I was really hoping when you came back would would drop the race crap Jei. A persons nationality means squat in the game.

As for RDM's meleeing, if they can do it and do their job, then why not. As long as the mob doesn't have a nasty AoE. I was in a static between 50 and 60 and meleed there. The whole time the people that needed refresh had it, the mob was constantly debuffed and everything was gravy.

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

that's not base on race but on experience ;o when i play my other jobs, i tell you, 90% of the NA Rdm plays really annoying. I got into arguement trying to tell 1 rdm to stay far from mandragora because he's the only healer we had which he refused, I tried to tell another person he should sit down when he's out of mp which he also refused saying he can convert which isn't even recharged yet. And a lot more to the point I don't even try to talk to them anymore.

There are some good NA Rdms, but they are pretty rare and far between. Compare to JP Rdm they seem to be the opposite where the bad ones are rare instead.

[lionx]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Its still pretty much a stereotype i guess, even if most RDMs that are JP are great, it still doesnt mean that NA ones are all crap as well. Its just the way people say how JP are better, it gives off as if its absolutely a fact that JP players are absolutely better than NA ones, which is of course not true 100%.

However i met RDMs on both NA and JP that leave the pt whenever they want to and have no courtesy just because they are RDM, sorta like BRDs, because they can get a pt really fast for trivial reasons(like omg i dont like where i am lvling or i dont wanna sub xxx or i dont like the pt config even when its fine...kinda sick of the DRG and WAR DD? No thanks; responses).

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

im not saying all. But at least 90%. To make it more clear, that's below level 50. Most NA PTs are better at 65+ so I'm pretty sure the good Rdms will be up there too.

Steriotyping, maybe. But without the bad Rdms out there ruining their own rep, this steriotype would never happen :p

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

A persons nationality means squat in the game.

Agreed. In fact, in the past few days I've had some HORRENDOUS pt's with JP's. Tonight I had a Mithra whm/smn that would expend her entire tank of mp in one fight. She never made use of her smn sub either. And no the pt was not a bad one. It wasn't OMFG great but it was a good pt. Last night a JP nin that was average at best but only cast one ninjitsu besides utsusemi and so on. There are good and bad players on both sides of the fence. While a couple years ago you could say that most of them did very well because they had more experience, now many of the long time JP players have moved on. It's a whole new ballgame out there.

[Langolier]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

If I'm supposed to be in on the skill chain, then I am doing my primary job. What good does a wand or staff do for Refresh? If NIN, DRK and PLD can melee and cast, there is no reason why a RDM can't cast and melee. Especially, when it helps chain mobs faster. If you honestly think that a party's XP is measured by whether the mages melee or not you've been playing the game with blinders on.

Mm... no...

PLD's can rely on hitting, provoke, and Flash to keep hate. They do cast spells, but not nearly as many as a RDM might need to cast.

The same with DRK...

NIN gets dual wield traits to help and most of their spells are pretty quick.

A DRK who tries to cast alot of Absorbs will not be gaining TP.

My problem with Red Mage melee is that it is never useful in exp.

[lionx]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Bad RDMs does not necessarily mean that it has to be NA as well, when you say bad RDMs, it seems that you mean only NA RDMs are bad. The stereotype is the RDM is bad because he is NA and that RDM JPs are always usually better. However thats not necessarily true either....i picked up my 58RDM on my brother's character and although he wasnt the best equipped i think i did not so bad after a few fights especially since i never played RDM before(with a Refresh cycle down, equip swapping macros every spell, and bursting and everything as well). While it might be true that there are usually more better RDMs that turn out to be JP, it just feels unfair that we are stilly categorizing that NA players are bad in general. It might be true, but i feel we need to stop the division of NA and JP as much as we can.

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Does anyone know...if En-spells add TP to the monster? If they don't...couldn't a RDM technically melee with like an onion sword...and be dealing their damage purely from En-spell? I'm not suggesting all RDMs drop their staves and test this, but supposing it does work and the monster doesn't have one of those PBAoE attacks...it might be a way to add a bit of damage.

If having an Enspell that deals damage though does add to monster TP...then nah.

[lionx]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I dont think it does..not sure i think i remember reading it up somewhere that it does not..=/ But still the most you do is...25 dmg? Usually less i think the most i saw was 25 but thats not IT monster..if you hit the monster(IF) then you usually do give it TP anyway, and you waste more MP trying to heal the tank because they can use more special attacks. That and trying to recast your En-spells over and over seem to be a waste..theres better things to cast.

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I believe TP is only given when you actually deal damage to the monster (by hitting them I mean). I'm not sure how it works for monsters (anyone a BST that has had their crab cast their Stoneskin then dismiss and hit it once and re-charm it?). I'm also not saying the RDM should go all willy nilly with meleeing. Obviously you should rest between rounds with a dark staff (you're not getting any TP anyway if you're doing 0 damage to it) and if they're the main healer, they obviously shouldn't. I'm just trying to see if there is possibly a positive side for a meleeing RDM

[truenoir]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Really there's very little on the positive side for RDM melee during XP. From what I've read, no, En- spells don't give a mob TP. A RDM can use a Ceremonial Dagger in theory to always do no physical damage and just do En- damage. However, it takes some +Enhancing gear at 75 to even do 19 damage without using the Fencing ring, Enhancing sword, etc. Base skill will do 17 damage at 75. (of course ignoring weather bonuses).

It's mostly something that fades as we go up. Like mentioned, we have B skill in sword and dagger. So 250 skill at 75 compared to 269 (A-) or 276 (A+) that more specialized DD have. That means we're missing 20-25ACC or so right off the bat, and a similar amount of ATT, if we expect to do as well as a melee DD. Generally speaking we shouldn't be eating melee food to help with this, and even with top of the line gear we still can't really match up.
Most good RDM are also swapping elemental staves per-spell, or at least would be swapping in a wand. Sure, Refresh or Haste it doesn't matter, but almost everything else it would. Also swap other gear parts, so what'd come down to is that you'd need millions of gil in gear to wear for seconds at a time in a fight so you could hope to *maybe* land a few hits in between doing your actual job. That's if you want to still be doing your casting job as well as you can, and even then you may not be taking advantage of potential rest time.

Can you go halfway on gear, miss often, and persist in standing and meleeing during XP? Sure. But you won't be doing a great job on casting or melee. Will it still be "good enough" sometimes. Yeah, probably. The biggest problem is usually RDMs that walk into the party expecting to melee and considering it important. It's not. If other factors line up, sure, knock yourself out. But the moment it causes a problem stop. Personally, I prefer to go for MB damage instead.

Not like we don't get plenty of opportunity to skill or whatever elsewhere. Well, maybe not if all you do is XP, but I've got capped Sword, Dagger, Archery, Evasion, nearly capped Club, etc. I haven't meleed in XP since the mid-50s.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Can you go halfway on gear, miss often, and persist in standing and meleeing during XP? Sure. But you won't be doing a great job on casting or melee. Will it still be "good enough" sometimes. Yeah, probably. The biggest problem is usually RDMs that walk into the party expecting to melee and considering it important. It's not.

Great post. That's the entire point isn't it? Do you want to be known as a good rdm or do you want to be known as an ok rdm? This game is a team effort. What benefits the team is what is most important, not what we want to do. (Note: This applies to more than rdm's too. Plds that won't rest because their tp is more important than their mp, blms that don't enfeeble because they don't think its necessary, whms that think regen is useless, etc.)