Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

You probably don't even know everything that a RDM can do.

That's fine, if that party leader wants to sit around making 4 other people wait an hour or longer for a tank or SC opener or whatever. A well equipped, macroed and played RDM can fill any of those roles in a party with ease.

Yeah, and why not have the WHM use a WS? If the mob is safe enough and you have RDM and WHM why not have them do their own SC? You afraid they might upstage the "uber 1337 DDers" and make them feel even more useless?

Those roles, my friend, while it is "possible" if you really push it, no one, I repeat, no one in EXP PT will ever get a rdm for those roles. Period. I lead a lot of parties. When I need DD and there's only a Rdm available, I will NOT see the Rdm as an alternative ;o Instead i'll keep searching until a fighter jobs come online

[Pitlourde]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Those roles, my friend, while it is "possible" if you really push it, no one, I repeat, no one in EXP PT will ever get a rdm for those roles. Period. I lead a lot of parties. When I need DD and there's only a Rdm available, I will NOT see the Rdm as an alternative ;o Instead i'll keep searching until a fighter jobs come online

I lead a lot of parties too, and I know from experience I can fill those roles when needed. I could care less if you believe me, I just refuse to allow the lie that RDM "can't" melee to go unchallenged.

err, how long do you really have to wait for a DD?
have you ever parsed the damage a respectable melee does compared to yourself. even with Enspells, it's not close. unless you start sacrificing MP food for Attack+ food. yuck.

If my only job is to open the SC for a big close from WAR or DRK or whatever, it doesn't matter if my damage is as good as a THF. The whole point is to get the SC out so the BLM and myself can burst it.

because there's this thing called MP conservation... you know for these things we call XP chains. swinging needlessly (cause you will connect once in a blue moon) is really bad for it. oh and the damage bit from above.

There are some party models where MP is not a problem (i.e. madly chaining VT-lowIT instead of IT++++ for chain 0 and massive downtime even with all mages on the backline). But, if you're one of the sheep that follows the herd right off the edge of a cliff, you probably don't even know about that.

and how, pray tell, are you going to be able to build TP with all that weapon swapping?

If I need to gain TP I don't weapon swap until the burst. If I need to weapon swap I find someone else to do the SC. This game is NOT black and white. There are sooooo many possibilities for XP it makes my head spin. Just because everyone thinks the only worthwhile XP party is 6 people fighting IT++ doesn't mean they're right.

btw, please don't tell me you've gotten this whole RDM is a good melee/tank/DD bit from Airspirit, Aphrasia and Purraj... orz

Who?

[neighbortaru]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

There are some party models where MP is not a problem (i.e. madly chaining VT-lowIT instead of IT++++ for chain 0 and massive downtime even with all mages on the backline). But, if you're one of the sheep that follows the herd right off the edge of a cliff, you probably don't even know about that.

you think you are unique in chaining VT's? well, you're not. hmm, you seem to think chaining IT's are hard too. well, they're not.

If I need to gain TP I don't weapon swap until the burst. If I need to weapon swap I find someone else to do the SC. This game is NOT black and white. There are sooooo many possibilities for XP it makes my head spin. Just because everyone thinks the only worthwhile XP party is 6 people fighting IT++ doesn't mean they're right.

so you cast paralyze, slow, gravity, etc with your sword? ok...

If my only job is to open the SC for a big close from WAR or DRK or whatever, it doesn't matter if my damage is as good as a THF. The whole point is to get the SC out so the BLM and myself can burst it.

again, where do you get your TP from? so you start the fight with weapons drawn and not debuff until the SC is ready? so you don't rest with a dark staff after the fight?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I've had the pleasure of lvling 4 rdm's past lvl 60. Mithra, Elvaan, Hume, and Taru. When I first started out, I would melee. Every party, every fight. I defended my melee'ing with every breath. Then when I decided to lvl another rdm, I did it 1/2 and 1/2. Lower lvls I melee'd all the time and only on occasion in the upper lvls. And finally I decided to lvl a rdm with very little melee time. Even in the lower lvls I was often called upon to be main healer. So I stood back and decided this time I wouldn't give a fart about melee'ing.

So after doing this over a period of a few years, I have come to the conclusion that I am a much better rdm post 41 when I do NOT melee. My pt's run smoother, I get more exp, and I enjoy myself more. Been there, done that, and learned. Since I have tried both sides of the story, when I see a rdm come to a party with an Assualt Jerkin on all I can say is.....{Run away!}.

[Pitlourde]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

neighbortaru, you don't get it at all. I'm not gonna spell it out for you more than I already have. RDM is all about flexibility. I am flexible enough to know how and when to adapt my role in a party to the party's needs.

You prefer to pigeonhole yourself as a backline mage.

That's great, but don't curse the rest of the RDM population to your own limitations.

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

it's actually the non-backline redmages that ruin our reputation.

doing what you *can* do is an entirely different story than doing what you *should* so. In an exp party where there are 5 other players relying on my performance to get good exp, no way I will let any redmages even myself to focus on melee. It's slowing everyone down, you're losing a great mage and obtain a medicore fighter.

Chaining IT+++ is slow exp? Don't make me laugh... 8k exp per hour has always been the standard for me chaining IT+++ with occasional 12+ k

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

neighbortaru, you don't get it at all. I'm not gonna spell it out for you more than I already have. RDM is all about flexibility. I am flexible enough to know how and when to adapt my role in a party to the party's needs.

You prefer to pigeonhole yourself as a backline mage.

That's great, but don't curse the rest of the RDM population to your own limitations.

Sorry, I'm with the majority here. Unless you sacrifice your spellcasting gear in favor of attack/accuracy gear, you will neither connect with your sword, nor deal much, if any damage, beyond level ~35. I've seen RDMs who insist they can melee, and deal sufficient damage, good players with good gear. And it's true, they CAN land some hits, and set up a skillchain. But is it worth it? No.

Let's put it this way. Paladins have much better sword skill, and access to better weapons in general; you still don't see anyone inviting them for their damage or skillchain potential, because there are jobs that simply do it better, faster, and more efficiently. Same holds true for RDM.

You'll never convince me that you're sticking your enfeebles consistently with your sword/melee gear equipped. I have trouble landing enfeebles on IT or higher enemies even with +6 Enfeebling Magic from Merit Points, +22MND and a matching elemental staff, and if I forget the staff, it gets much, much harder.

Don't give us a line about gear swapping. I do quite a lot of gear swapping as it is to make sure I can cast my spells with optimal gear, and trying to add additional armor for melee would not only be difficult, it's nigh on impossible since there simply isn't any more room to add more swaps. As things stand I have 3 "master" gear swaps that take care of armor swaps for different activities. Adding 2-3 more to take care of even more gear so I can melee with a weapon is not only silly and confusing, it's pointless. You'd waste more energy than its worth swapping into enough ACC gear to land consistent hits, and all that goes byebye the moment you have to cast a spell anyway (unless you're one of those sucky RDMs who don't cast spells other than Enthunder, but that's a separate discussion).

If there's 3-4 spellcasters in the party, even if you landed every single attack, if you're doing your job properly you'll gain far less than 100 TP per fight since you're casting Slow, Paralyze, Dispel, Refresh, plus optional backup cures and magic burst nukes. And since we know RDMs can't hit 100% of the time (even main DD's can't, and they're eating sushi and loading up on +Acc), the likelihood of getting enough TP between fights to perform a WS more than once every 3 fights is basically zero, and that's if you never swap out for a staff.


Icemage

[Pounce]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

RDM are supposed to be able to fill a melee role in a party whether you like it or not.

And NIN aren't supposed to be tanks.

Face it, the game we play right now, and the game S-E envisioned when FFXI was still on the drawing boards is vastly different.

[Caspian]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

And NIN aren't supposed to be tanks.

Face it, the game we play right now, and the game S-E envisioned when FFXI was still on the drawing boards is vastly different.

I guess if he truly wants to play rdm the way SE originally envisioned it, then he should keep swinging, throw out a random cure every once in a while, and NEVER refresh (seeing how it was in an update).
Funny how ppl go off on these tangents about what SE "originally" intended such and such job to be when its clear after a few updates that they realize the population is gonna do what it wants to with the job and then start rebuiliding the job around that premise. Theres a fair chance ninja wasnt ORIGINALLY intended to be a tank, but thats how the majority of the population chose to use it and now SE is promoting it while still trying to keep it from being overpowered.
Partied with a friend of mine the other day (lvl 49 rdm) He was the first rdm I've seen melee in a long time. The party seemed to go alright, only saw the tank mention not having refresh once, though dont know how much the constant 0's and 1's of dmg he was doing were really helping. It would seem the cpl points of dmg he would occasionally do was not enough to counteract the tp he was giving the bats that seemed to enjoy jetstreaming me and the tank.
In any case, I guess assuming you could do the rest of you job on par with how you would do it if you werent meleeing, not waste mp on enthunder (dont see how the minimal dmg justifies using the mp) then you could melee. One of the biggest drawbacks to meleeing I see is that anyone you party with who doesnt know you will automatically assume you arent taking care of the rest of your job the way you should. Like TheGrandMom said, she gets a bad feeling about any rdm she sees in atk gear. It would seem the "jack of all trades" kinda becomes the court jester when it comes to melee later on in the game.

[Tomoh]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

This game is all about efficiency in LV-up PTs. Your just not going to be efficient by meleeing and SCing.

I have to agree with Pitlourde to some extent. If you're in a crappy PT or if your PT leader could not find 3 melees, or if the RDM is absolutley the only job available to fill the frontline, by all means equip acc gear, eat sushi and swing away.

I've played RDM for 3 years now. W/ and w/o Refresh, Dispell, and Convert post LV 40. I've also meeled with request. The bottomline is I'm a much better RDM standing back. My sword and dagger skills are maxed out, but I achieved that with ease by going on skill-up PTs in the sky.

In this game, you can do whatever you want. Having said that I enjoy PTs where everyone does their best to maximize everyone's experience.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

it's actually the non-backline redmages that ruin our reputation.

in case you still don't get it.

a RDM, no matter how high their weapon rating is, is still a mage. they are responsible for refresh, dispel, dia, paralyze, slow, gravity, backup curing, MB on the skillchain, etc. meleeing is just a luxury, don't do it if it means you sacrafice your responsiblities.

so you say you melee and still do all that stuff. fair enough (benefit of the doubt), but what does it cost you? you don't swap weapons so you can build TP. that means you loose the great benefit of wands and ele staffs. as a result you stick your enfeebles in 3-4 casts. add that up over the course of all your enfeebles in one fight and that becomes a lot of MP you've just wasted so you can be in the SC.

furthermore, RDM don't exactly build TP fast. unless you are gear swapping a FULL melee acc setup (2x snipers, lifebelt, battle gloves, etc.) you are lucky to even have 50% accuracy. That means the two other people are waiting for you to start, which means the fights are prolonged, which means your tank is taking more hits than necessary, which means your healer is burning more MP than necessary, which means you miss XP chains. Thanks a lot. Now you've just made 5 other people's experience oh so much greater...

[truenoir]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Skill was increased to a solid B (not B+) skill in Sword and Dagger from lower ratings (Dagger first). This was something done to most jobs and their weapons though, and in RDM's case we also lost Marksmanship skill altogether in the shuffle.

Really it would be unfair to downgrade skill much, as basically every job has a B- skill or better in *something* to melee with. Like mentioned already, it's not a matter of making it less attractive to use. It already is. People just don't care it seems.

[Sacr3D]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Im a lvl 50 rdm and I still melee. I dont see whats so wrong with it sure you miss alot but I can do some dmg. I still Refresh my party , cure them , debuff and use magic (especially for MBs). From time to time I even manage to do a 200 dmg when I have my tp. And no one NEVER complained about me meelying. The only time i stop meelying is when we have a link >_> Then I completelly stop and start curing instead and sleeping the mob

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

as I said, if you fullfill your other roles efficiently, no one cares if you melee or not. Just know when to stop when you need you mp.

[Vinen]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

as I said, if you fullfill your other roles efficiently, no one cares if you melee or not. Just know when to stop when you need you mp.

I agree with Jei, that said I have a dispostion towards not meleeing. As up until a few days ago I never had a sword or dagger worth using.

With that said, time to try and steal from Jei again.