Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

do you even play rdm at all Pitlourde? +3 ACC from wise set, yea, good indication.

There's a different, all Rdm melee to some extent. But to misunderstand that you are being helpful by your melee, is utterly wrong. Rdm's melee, never was, never will, be helpful to the group. I melee too. But only to keep my skills up as my main intension.

Meleeing as Rdm is not as simple as just do it or not do it. It's the should or should not that matters. Rdm's main role, is to cast our spells. And to cast spells, it's not just to cast: Rdm has to manage their MP, conserve, to make sure the PT can chain the monsters. If a Rdm can keep up his spell casting quality AND manage their MP well while s/he melee, then you can even run up to the mob and punch it with your fist, no one will even care what you do.

This, will depend not only on the Rdm themselves, but also the PT set up, the mobs, the locations and everything else.

To know that you HAVE to case spells, is what seperate a bad Rdm from a good Rdm
To know when you can melee *without* sacrificing the PT's performance as a whole, is what seperate the *best* Rdms from the good Rdm.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

I'm sure he does Jei, but he's in the {Too Weak} RDM camp...

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Or we can just be uber, and shock and awe the pts we're in when we do the job properly. Seriously, we were fighting mobs that conned IT+ for the lvl 65s in the pt when I was like, 62. So hence, my enfeebles werent sticking worth 5 damns. (I hate Cockatrices btw. . . ). So what I decided to do was refresh, and only refresh. No one cared, and someone even complimented me.

I would occasionally run to the front. Swing for me 3 damage, keep refreshing, and use Burning Blade every 6 fights when I got TP for like, 30 damage. Keep in mind that our pitiful damage output in NO WAY compares to the amount of TP RNGs give mobs. So if you want to argue that RDM give mobs TP, then take your head out of your ass and look at all the heavily armored members in the front lines, flailing away at the mob, giving it an assload of ingredients to spam its moves.

I like how RNGs do Sidewinder, getting the PLD hit with Sickle Slash, then Barrage and after a few shots, Sidewinder again, getting the PLD hit with Sickle Slash twice in under 15 seconds. Think your 5-10 damage gives the mob tp comparable to that? Hell, if the RDM actually contributed to giving the mob TP enough fofr a WS, then you guys are fighting mobs that take too long to kill. Please, if I see another thread bitching about RDM Melee, I will throw the next kitty I find into my blender.

For the sake of Baby Jesus, stop bitching about it! No matter if you do or do not know how to do your job, us good Red Mages who take the time to research what not to do in pts and how to effectively contribute will continue to shine, and you asshats, whether you melee or not, will suck.

A sucky RDM is a sucky RDM, regardless of if they melee or not. Stop bitching.

just fyi....if 2 ppl have a weapon with the same delay, one hits a mob for 200 dmg, one hits a mob for 3 dmg, both hits give the same TP....its related to delay not damage >.> 2 sword swings for 5-10 dmg each are giving more tp TP than a single arrow for 130 dmg :x

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

To know that you HAVE to case spells, is what seperate a bad Rdm from a good Rdm
To know when you can melee *without* sacrificing the PT's performance as a whole, is what seperate the *best* Rdms from the good Rdm.

Exactly. Like I said before I've lvled a few rdm's and I've tried it both ways. I truly loved my melee'ing rdm and defended her to the bitter end. But after playing another rdm and standing back. I can see that I am more a benefit to my party now than I was before. Do I wish it were different? Yep, I love to hack and slash. But now that I've been on both sides, I know what I have to do for my party and not for myself.

[Hyrist]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Glad to hear it will take some time. Hopefully by then I'll have left the game. Encouraging bad rdm's to melee makes me want to cry. LOL

To be honest I do hope by then that those who are not willing to accept a new idea once evidence of its functionality is prevented would have left the game by that time, it will provide less aruing and questioning of the facts which will be what I expect to hear about my guide once I releace it.

Furthermore I dont expect a hybrid (melee and magery) style rdm to surpass or maybe even equal that of a mage only with the current equipment I have found, Though with the releace of the endgame Mnd&Int in one rings... it will free up space in equipment swapings for whatever RDM orientated melee gear gets discovered in the meantime.

But I do beleive that a RDM can be designed to have his melee be helpful to the party in an EXP situation. How to and when however, is a very thin line, but never or less is one I am determined to find a path through.


On another note:
The Chakra with Magical Accuracy +8 is intresting. Why would they put mage stats on a throwing weapon that returns?

[swingfly]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Hyrist, now really. Red Mages meleeing is hardly a new idea. People have done it since the game came out. Some good, most bad. You seem to think (like so many other people) that you have discovered something brand new, or a new way of doing it. I can assure you that that's not the case. People have been meleeing, swapping gear, been careful of AOE and so on since forever. Other people have been meleeing, not swapping gear and done a bad job in general since forever.

I'm almost 100% sure that anyone who actually takes the time to learn how to play a "caster" Rdm can adapt to a mix between melee and casting. I'm also sure that there are some people who have been meleeing throughout their career as Rdm and does a great job. The sad thing though is that there aren't that many situations where our meleeing would benefit the party more than even 1-2 ticks of resting and a MB. In fact they are almost non-existant. Then you can say that "but it's more fun to melee so I will do that anyway" but....then the Pld will say that he's going to be an attack-Pld but still tank.

As for the Chakram with Macc....well, why would they put Magic stats on a throwing weapon that doesn't return? Or Evasion on a throwing weapon that returns? I don't think that there's anything special with this weapon. Of course it seems great, it would be perfect for our end-game enfeebling but also a way to lessen resists on our nukes. The thing that has me a bit worried is that this chakram will make the Rdm JSE less of the joke than it is today, that you somehow hit some sort of point where the accumulated Magic Accuracy actually becomes useful

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Red Mages meleeing is hardly a new idea. People have done it since the game came out. Some good, most bad.

would like to elaborate this a little more. Back when I started Redmage I can say I was a total n00b ;o I used Rdm/war and played as a front line up until level 25. That was back in 2002 in a world where everyone else were japanese. And you know what my attitude at that time was? I literally think like this "If I am to play Rdm, I want to be a front line fighter, not a caster" :p

But really, back in the JP days it was an environment where newbie such as myself was surrounded by highly skilled players even at the lowest level PT in VK Dunes. They perform 3-4 chains since level 10 killing rabbits and lizards. And by level 25 they were aiming for 5 chains already.

When I am surrounded by excellent melees and play with PTs that pulls non stop, I slowly realized how precious my MP was. A lot of time, the chain had to stop just because I didn't have enough MP. I was told, I got yelled at, in Japanese which I hardly understood. But that, combine with with the unpleasant outcome of battles and my lack of MP to keep the chain going, slowly taught me where I belongs. I slowly adapt a mage play style into my Rdm and I have to say it was much better for the PT as a whole. The ego to be a front line and swing my sword was replaced by the joy of being a part of excellent team... and my feel for meleeing slowly died over time.

So, I've been in FFXI for 3 years now and had played 3 characters, all 70Rdm at least. Today, I don't even have the same feeling I used to have anymore: I care totally nothing about melee. I still try to find the right time and the right place to melee but only for 1 purpose: to keep my skill up to date. nothing more, nothing less.

My latest Redmage Jaza, got from 1 to 65 in 3 weeks with both Whm and Blm fully levelled for sub. that should tell you something about playing Rdm my style.

[GASGUL]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

At the risk of getting flamed to Mars and back,

o.O

and i thought you were fair game,

and yes the weather was great today,

[truenoir]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

+3 ACC from wise set, yea, good indication.

Hey, +3 ACC was awesome.

On Battle Gloves.

At level 14.


Gosh our JSE sucks ._.

[Rai|Kye]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

you guys like kickin dead horses right ??

we all know you can meele if you do your job corectly blah blah blah....

i never meeled in an exp party because i like staves... the only swords i ever got for my rdm was the wise mage analace the Joyuse and lately enhancing sword due to pure luck...
i only use them for coffer-key pts or to Solo but in exp party you for such low dmg it just sucks.

i got to savage blade with helping cofferkey hunts and 1-2 skill up pts.
for me skill up is no excuse to meele in exp PT.
i dont know how you guys do but i change my equip on every spell so i would never have any chance to build up TP.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Has anyone seen this? http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...65843966658625
It happened to be posted by Hyrist, no less. I found it to be rather refreshing(no pun intended), to read, and I hope it'll give the "sword skill naysayers" something to ponder.

Sure, I'd like to see the sword skill promoted a level or two, as I think would be befitting vaunted students of the blade--but then there are alot of tweaks I'd like to see made to Red Mage. Some simply a matter of taste(no WAY do you wield a rapier the same as a broadsword), others a little more substantial, but too many to go into here.

Suffice it to say, while Red mage may never have a whole lot to contribute to in party melee, it was never really meant to. The concept of a Red Mage was as something of a duelist, for one on one combat. I think that suits our sword perfectly for particularly savvy soloing, and Ballista even moreso.

You may say, "We're Ballista thoroughbreds, that's all good and fine, but how are we supposed to keep our blade arm strong if we stay off the front lines in an XP party?" Plain and simple: spend as much time in Skill Up expeditions as you can. Skill Ups should be your home next to Level Up parties.

I think that operating in such a manner will allow every Red Mage to taste the life they'd imagined when they first chose the job.

[Icemage]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Red Mage is the most flexible job in FFXI. Capable in melee when alone, very tough to kill, moderately strong healing magic, moderately strong offensive magic. As it turns out, what smart players should realize and embrace about the job is that you do not always have to adhere to any one philosophy when playing a red mage.

Be Flexible.

EXP Parties:
In a party, your most potent assets are your spells and your nearly limitless MP supply, which can be used to make the party stronger. No WHM available? Not a problem, change gears, add a WHM sub and turn yourself into a healer with benefits. Not as efficient, perhaps, but efficiency isn't everything when you have large amounts of MP to spend. No BLM? Gear up, use your BLM sub and prepare to drop in some magic burst damage. Party has lots of spellcasters? Bring that bard subjob and worry less about insufficient MP flow.

Solo:
Throw away your concepts of backline casting when you're alone. While it is occasionally possible to Sleep-Nuke things to death, it's quite difficult and ineffecient. Fortunately, red mages have the ability to attack and defend themselves quite capably as well, and so the RDM solo style tends to gravitate towards the "classic" RDM image of the magical fencer.

I see far too many people who try to mix these roles, when the logical thing to do is make use of the job's flexible nature and turn yourself into whatever is most appropriate for what you're doing right now.

Let's be completely honest here. Even if you gave RDM an A skill in Sword, they will still not be good at melee in XP parties. Not only is 1-handed sword damage very low, but RDM have access to hardly any good high-damage WS, and worse yet, have access to only a handful of good swords at any given level. Furthermore, because you're so busy casting, an upgraded sword skill still will not make you into a melee machine because you just don't have time to swing often enough to keep up with pure melees.

However, downgrading RDM's melee skills would be bad, as it would take away from the solo aspect of the red mage which persissts even in FFXI.

Some people seem to feel that you HAVE to always be in a melee mindset, or always in a caster mindset, when the truth is, you should always be in the mindset that fits your current task best.


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

Hmm, 1h Sword do ass damage, unless you can get your hands on one of them Broad Swords that PLDs use. Then again, We wouldnt be precise fencers if we were bludgeoning things with a Broadsword >.>

Melee comes down to this, i've found: pt setup. With a NIN tank, they usually do the enfeebling, so I do Gravity, Bio/Dia, Refresh Myself and normally, the other Mage.

If there are two mages, even if I have to do the enfeebling, like with a PLD tank, 2 refreshes and my enfeebling are easy pickings for my MP pool.

3 Refresh or more, despite the PT layout, 3 Refreshes takes a toll on the mana in one way or another. If I have to Refresh 3 ppl, then chances are, the pt setup is such that I cant afford to NOT enfeeble. Hence, by the time my Enfeebling and Refreshing is done, I only have enough time to sit for 3 ticks.

This is the main point of my argument, and Hyrist, I'm intrigued that you posted that asshatist statement on Alla and had the nerve to call self-upstanding communities like ours what you did. Red Warrior? Grey Mage? No my friend, you are trash. And as long as there exist mentallity like yours, I dont think that people such as myself will ever have repeat invites. Its one thing to be a RDM and get a pt cause of it. It's another to get repeat invites, since ppl know that you understand how to keep a pt moving.

What's worse is that you attempt to defend your position, despite having proof otherwise.

Oh, and Clydearrowy or w/e the fuck your name is, how in the hell do you figure your reply to my statement is valid? That's not even justifyable by game proof. Yes, I know that TP for mob and player is based off of Delay. I've dabbled in melee long enough to know something like that. Furthermore, what makes you think that RDM and RNG are even comparable? That's why I used them.

if 2 ppl have a weapon with the same delay, one hits a mob for 200 dmg, one hits a mob for 3 dmg, both hits give the same TP....its related to delay not damage >.> 2 sword swings for 5-10 dmg each are giving more tp TP than a single arrow for 130 dmg :x

Keep in mind, Mr Genious, that RNG Longbows have delay of around 500. And watching my 75RNG friend get 17TP a shot, I think that there is NO comparison to RNG tp accumulation and RDM accumulation. Even when we go out and solo together, he can do 3 weaponskills before I have 100% tp. Barrage gives RNG an assload of tp. And if you read my post, you'd understand that i knew it was weap delay. Since when have our 4 hits landed over the course of 30 swings been proven to have a detrimental effect?

God, I dont even know what side I'm arguing for. Just stop hijacking this thread with ignorance.

[Jei]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

well, just do what you see appropriate and let your PT decide I heard too many cries from my LS how sucky RDMs in their PTs are. It's just sad how easily our reputation can get ruined.

[Hyrist]

Re: Nerfing RDM's sword rating...

WOW, I never thought someone would dig up that old speach I had way back then...

But I still beleive in it, which is mainly why I still research RDM melee in exp parties.

Yes I've seen all the statistics, I've heard all the debates. My allahkazham Karma has gone down the toobs because I keep shouting at people to stop aruing and to just give it a due research.

I mainly view it as somthing differnt, thats possible if explored correctly. However, no one nowadays bothers to try to make a deicent guide on it, which is what I really think would help improve the preformance of these "Melee RDMs"