Wait a sec.... If RDM are the masters of enfeebling...

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Justarius
that only effects the 1st spawns of weapons. you should be pulling weapons fast enough as they spawn so they they probably dont even have a buff on them at all. Many good BRDs are pullers in RoMeave since they run out and pull @ 25% life and sleep the mob right at the doorway until the previous one dies. Chain#8 or 9 depending on if the can pull enough mobs in time with the occasional Golem mixed in for fun.

Althrough RoMeave really sucks in terms of xp after 72.

Chain 8 or 9 while being <72? I find that hard to believe, even with the pre-pulling.

[Laehn]

They cast too fast, and with one party, theres no way to pull fast enough. Brds arent pullers, you're insane. A brd can easily die pulling out there if a sleep is resisted or if theyre bound. They have one of the weakest defenses in the game and some of the worst choices in armor. Its like sending a smn out to pull without an avatar. A brds time is better spent resting MP especially in those cases when curagas and erase are so vital. Blink on the weapons along with all the other buffs can come to around 9 castings of finale on ONE enemy to remove all the buffs, thats too much for a brd to remove in one fight and will make it extremely difficult to get even chain 5 and pull in time, unless youre chaining VT-T in which case youre better off going someplace else. Ive been there before with 2 rngs and we left to tulia to fight harder mobs that dont use buffs and did fine.

Another example would be whm or pld type mobs. Brds have the same difficulty with those too. Another example are wyvern mobs, dispelling wind makes a brd very weak. Any mage type mob that needs silencing gives rdms the upperhand compared to brds. Rdms have more mp making them MUCH better backup healers than brds and rdms can MB too.

Brds are not better than rdms, theyre just more specialized. A rdm can do a lot of things a lot better than a brd, where a brd can only do one thing extremely better than a rdm.

The fact is rdm can roughly fill an empty spot in a party, but never replace a job. But no job can fill a rdms spot because no other job is as flexible as a rdm. The jobs all share some similarities, but none of them are better or worse, they just do things differently. And because of that fact, they all have advantages over other jobs and weaknesses. Rdms just dont have any large weaknesses or strengths in any specific area. Flexibility is a double edged sword. Its a rdms greatest strength and weakness.

[WishMaster3K]

Wow, thanx a lot for putting a nice spin on it. Maybe i was being narrow in my views of spells and etc.

Come to think of it, it would be much better to have a RDM and a BRD than to have either/or.

In this case, my usual static would be
RDM/WHM( for healing tank and doing RDM stuff)
BRD/WHM
BLM/WHM
RNG/NIN
PLD/WAR
(now that i think of it, mainly anything can go in this spot...Maybe even a THF so that it can SATA when RNG inevitably pulls hate)

In any case, i highly doubt this setup can have the PLD keep hate at level 40. But then again, i had a pt with a Taru PLD with that new German armor (someone gimme a name any day now...) and a craptasticular load of +VIT stuff in addition to gear. He had normal Taru MP and healed himself pretty well without the gimp WHM we had. So i suppose a lone PLD can keep hate at 40. who knows.

We drifted off main topic kinda hard btw. :sweat:

[Apple Pie]

Especially for NINs, having both BRD and RDM is always nice because Elegy and Slow (or Hojo) stack. This makes them recasting Utsusemi:Ichi easier and iventually helps them to switch their eva+ gears to offensive ones resulting in increasing overall firepower and PT efficiency.

BRD has someting that RDM doesn't and vice versa. Therefore, having both is always nice.

By the way, BRD can be the best puller in KRT. How did we get chain 21 (check my sig) last night? Well, this was because our BRD was excellent always pre-pulling next one.

I think I'm going to level BRD next since BRD is also an artistic job like RDM requring player's experience and skill.

[Mila]

I would think that brd would be an awesome puller... they don't need to stick around after their songs are sung. If I ever play brd, I'm gonna be puller for sure.

[ClydeArrowny]

They cast too fast, and with one party, theres no way to pull fast enough.

Uhh, with one good PT you can take most of them out, and you just avoid pulling the ones you didnt get to on the new pop cycle.

Brds arent pullers, you're insane. A brd can easily die pulling out there if a sleep is resisted or if theyre bound. They have one of the weakest defenses in the game and some of the worst choices in armor. Its like sending a smn out to pull without an avatar. A brds time is better spent resting MP especially in those cases when curagas and erase are so vital. Blink on the weapons along with all the other buffs can come to around 9 castings of finale on ONE enemy to remove all the buffs, thats too much for a brd to remove in one fight and will make it extremely difficult to get even chain 5 and pull in time, unless youre chaining VT-T in which case youre better off going someplace else.

Brds can pull fine. The other day a brd in my PT was pulling weapons with elegy bringing them back just as the previous one died without getting hit. A good puller should n't be getting hit so def means shit. Thf is main puller a lot and my elvaan thf has less def than taru blms when im in PT equips.

If you pull at the right range you wont worry about bind.
Well, in cases where the brd NEEDS to regularly curaga and erase more than ballad and refresh allow, sure have them rest.

Uhh, rdm can dispel too, its not like the brd is soloing the enemy....and not all enemies have 9 buffs. Even on weapons, after first pull cycle, 1 or 2 buffs at most per pull.

Brd shouldn't pull in /every/ circumstance....but it can help a lot with chaining high by pulling while the melees finish off the mob theyre fighting. On my thf I had to stick around to hit the renkei so i couldnt run off to pull as the mob was on its last legs(renkei usually killed it.) If brd didnt pull I dont think we would've been able to chain6.

[Laehn]

Thfs have utsusemi, a much higher evasion, flee and hide, rngs have widescan, shadowbind, and ranged weapons which have greater range, thats why theyre better at pulling. Not to mention the -vit items brds often wear along with the chance that lullaby could be resisted and the fact most brds wear hp>mp gear that offer no defensive attributes along with errant gear, which is a double edged sword.

Consider a certain brd casts one curaga, one erase 4 typical longer brd songs and one single target party buff with 3 normal enfeebling songs. Thats about 1 minute and 20 seconds just stuck standing there from my estimates, and thats a pretty conservative estimate. That doesnt include finale, lullaby, recasts due to possible resists, or travel time for the brd. Thats pure standing and casting. Typical songs wear off in approximately 1 1/2 minutes, by the time youre all done singing and casting, two things are happening unless youre having problems: 1. The mobs is either dead, or close to death 2. Songs are wearing off and need to be refreshed. If you want more information on how to play the job go here http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=27082 its a good crash course on "playing brd" 101.

Granted, people play the job differently, but most brds would agree that pulling is generally not in the jobs expected duties for good reason.

Chaining monsters like that is no big accomplishment (21 is impressive), ive done it before too. It can be fun and something to brag about to friends, but 180~ exp you have to admit is nothing fantastic considering you can get the same experience from a chain 2 easily with half as much work. And how easy are chain 2's compared to chain 21's?

Ive been a brd, nearly a year, and in all that time, ive never once seen another brd pulling other than in real competitive places. Brds are generally too busy to be doing that type of stuff, but ive done it myself, and i know it works, its just not safe or a good decision for very obvious reasons. Brds are not pullers. The only tool a brd has that other jobs dont when it comes to pulling is sleep and to be honest, thats not a very quick way to pull and can cause unexpected links or even make you lose the very mob you were pulling. Combine the headstart a brd using sleep would get, along with all the -enmity most brds wear at high lvls, the mob is likely to become disinterested before it reaches you.

[Shiia]

Pretty much depends on the hunting ground I think. Ro'Mauve's pull is one of the most annoying place to do. The mobs are all spread out, they run pretty fast compared to the skeletons in King Ramp's tomb. King Ramp's tomb however they are packed together and links are likely to happen (they are REALLY REALLY DUMB, sound agro ya but you have to REALLY BE CLOSE to get their attention...)... in any case chain 21... my god did you cleared the entire area or something -_-;

[Apple Pie]

did you cleared the entire area or something

Yes, we did. We went there with NIN, MNK, MNK, BRD, WHM and myself (All LV75). We're running around, what we call, "Doughnut" area and wipe all mobs on sight. Although there are some other PTs out there, our BRD did fantastic job winning most of pulls. I guess we can chain up to 26 in this place if this place isn't crowded at all but the ghost (Lemures) often interrupts the chain.

Chaining monsters like that is no big accomplishment (21 is impressive), ive done it before too. It can be fun and something to brag about to friends, but 180~ exp you have to admit is nothing fantastic considering you can get the same experience from a chain 2 easily with half as much work. And how easy are chain 2's compared to chain 21's?

It depends on the hunting place as Shiia stated. In fact, the highest base XP we (a PT of LV75) can get at KRT is 126. It isn't anything like chaining 2 IT++ mobs that give us 160+ XP in 4 minutes. We fast chain these (max LV82) ghosts and skeltons until we wipe the area.

I, of course, know what's important is how much XP we can get per hour, not how many chains we get. However, this couldn't be done without that wonderful BRD's effort, I believe.

Look at the interval between battles - only 10.7 seconds. He never failed to sing Madrigal + Minuet and Ballad I + Ballad II. He even helped stats curing.

Pulling isn't basically BRD's job, I agree but in most "merit-point (or Meripo)" PTs, BRDs I've seen often go pulling mobs. They aren't asked to do but they do it spontaneously.

[Darkedge]

http://theunityls.com/chain20.jpg

From TheUnityLS, On Caitsith.

I don't know if the BRD pulled, maybe if he see's this pic he can talk about it.

[Justarius]

Sorry Laehn, I'm gonna have to pull the elitist "I'm 75 on a few jobs" card on you and say you havent partied with what I define as a "good" BRD or "good" RDM if you still believe that. Bards are argubly the best pullers in RoMeave since everything aggros to magic, and weapons are easy to lullaby. Seeing as you ARE a BRD yourself, you need to maybe think outside the cookie cutter mold you are squeezed in and try something new since you obviously dont have a chance to watch a skilled BRD in action (never been in a 2 brd pt ever). When you get 6 75s in KRT in full pimp god gears and another party arrives, it is best to just camp outside in the spawn area to get pulls. RDM pulling with Silence in KRT works too.

Just's best LimitPoint PT (6 x 75)

NIN, RNG, RNG, BRD, RDM, BLM up @ Ullikummi room. If you're only PT there, and someone pre-pulls (ie - BRD) you can reach some amazing numbers. And if Ulli pops, just kite around the tele until its dead for an extra half a Byakko pop.

[Icemage]

Originally posted by WishMaster3K
thanx for answering the question with attitude, Icemage...

And while Bards have stuff like Accuracy+ songs, Regen Songs, Strength+ songs, I was refering to the songs that seem to do the same things Debuffs from a RDM do.

You didnt have to be rude about it, i KNOW I'm 31, and everyone else can see that. Oh, and how would me getting Refresh and Convert make the competition Worse, if thats what your implying. :confused:

The only things bards and RDM do similarly is Dispel/Finale and Refresh/Ballad (and even there there are major differences between the way they go about doing these things).

Yes, everyone "could" look at your level and see your level, but the average reader simply isn't going to pay attention to that detail (hence why I pointed it out). Your question regarding Convert and Refresh and their pertinence to party dynamics is indicative of why I took issue with your previous post. The fact is, the conclusions that you have come to are not based on actual experience - merely speculation, and in this case, very inaccurate speculation, which detracts from the discussion.

"Typical" party post-55 looks like:
Tank
Melee
Melee
Support
Healer
Nuker

Each slot can generally only be filled by specific jobs.

Support slot's primary job is MP recovery, and is only fillable by RDM or BRD. It's possible to remove the Healer slot and add a second Support, but it's not often done, and thus, red mages and bards generally compete for the same role in the majority of parties at 55+.


Icemage

[Laehn]

(brd stuff)
Im not saying brds cant pull, or that its not something ive never done, or that it cant be advantageous over other jobs pulling. But point in fact, those rare instances where it is better for the brd to pull are few and far between and not applicable for generalized discussion. Ive said before, ive pulled before, and ive done a very good job most the time ive done it. Songs can be an effective tool to pulling because its not considered magic and it can often give you extra time to finish your current enemy or run. That doesnt mean im a puller or that im better at it than other jobs. It just means that it can be effective in certain situations.

Of course no behavior is appropriate in all situations. Every situation is going to be different and require critical thinking and some decisions to be made. But you can still make generalizations that can be applied to how you can expect things to work. That should be something everyone takes into consideration when discussing anything. There are ALWAYS exceptions.

I could make a generalization about whms being super melee or rdms being excellent tanks if i only took into account a few cases where that was true, but it would be foolish of me to argue that those statements are true in general when there are an overwhelming number of cases where those jobs dont even play those roles in parties. That doesnt mean i have to say whms are NEVER good melees or that rdms are NEVER good tanks, but it just means that for the most part, theyre not. Other jobs do those roles better and thats why you dont see many rdms tanking or whms meleeing or brds pulling in the 2-3 years the games been out.


My personal play style has nothing to do with this. I dont hide how i play my job or my experience in my job. I dont claim to know it all, but im certain i know more than someone whos never played brd long. And honestly, wether i play cookie cutter or not doesnt really matter when being a brd. Ive seen perfectly good brds who wear all melee equipment and like to swing their swords. Fact of the matter is, as long as you sing as a brd, you can do a fantastic job. You may not be super great, but thats just your small opinion of the person and doesnt really mean much to anyone except yourself. Stats and equipment can help, but they wont make or break a brd unlike other jobs and you can play brd in a number of ways with great success. Go read through the brd forum and youll see that repeated more than once.

Brd isnt as much a matter of skill or tactics, or money and equipment, or having good company, its about dedication and persistance. And i hope i showed how persistant i can be here. That should give everyone a good idea of how much effort i put into being a good brd Just like anyone with their favorite job.

Brds should have never been brought up on this thread anyways. Sorry for getting sidetracked.
(/end brd stuff)

Rdms rule, elitests drool.

Rdms have nothing to compete with from brds, and brds have nothing to compete with from rdms. They share i think 3 vital spells, and thats it. Slow, dispel, and refresh and thats it. And only one is really common, slow. Refresh is single target, ballad is aoe, ST and AOE both have advantages and disadvantages. Finale and dispel are opposite elements first of all, and finale has a horrible cool down time. Songs dont take mp and take a long time to cast, rdm spells cast quickly and they all cost mp. One song cuts a brds effectiveness in half. Rdms can cast as many spells as they want. Brd can increase def attack and evasion. A rdm can decrease defense attack and evasion on the enemy. As for oher jobs. Rdms have the same types of abilities of most the mages and even some melee proficiency (some doesnt mean exceptional), but no job comes close to the same arsenal a rdm has available.

Icemage is right. Thats how typical parties look. Its easy to break from typical and still get excellent exp no doubt. You can easily go without a whm for instance and put in another support job of a different kind for example and get 6mp/3sec. Or you could just put all blms in the backline and stuff would die so fast you wouldnt need healing or any mp refresh. Or you could have 5 smns and a brd or 5 rngs and a blm. If you think it can work, it probably can. Point is, rdms and brds dont compete anymore than rdm and whms or wars and drk or whms and smns. Dont forget that you can easily get a similar effect to ballad or refresh with some juice.

[Justarius]

If you're cookie cutter and you know it, raise your hand!

oh, nice sig.

[Laehn]

C'est en forgeant qu'on devient forgeron.

Its ok to be wrong. Nobody expects you to know everything.

Remember, its just a game. No need to be inflamatory about it. Take a deep breath and tell yourself its just a game. Have fun with it. It was made for fun, so dont get angry.

/comfort