Wait a sec.... If RDM are the masters of enfeebling...

[Justarius]

I think most people 75 RDMs will agree that BRDs > RDM in EXPERIENCE point parties in nearly every area and party formation after Lv55 if only 1 spot is alloted for MP regen. This is comparing competent BRD vs RDM, not idiotic ones that dont know how to get Ballad on a PLD, or debuff.

That said, if Refresh II were added, a 6 MP/tic self-only spell would be awesome. Especially for solo :spin: Or make Refresh II be a Refresh I that lasts 2x as long. Making Phalanx II an AoE Phalanx would be nice too.

[WishMaster3K]

Thinking about it, i suppose that Having a 1/MP tick spell that is on everyone at once is slightyly better than having 3MP/Tick that needs a certain amount of cooldown.

Oh, and plz dont talk about a RDM/BRD... no comments... plz.. ; ;

And having Refresh II being a 6 mp spell would be a BIT too much.

And having both stack would be overkill as well. But like I said, if it was there, I'd be able to make a killing in my Static PT. Only ones with mp are Me, BLM, WHM and PLD. Having two ppl Refreshed at the same time effectively cuts the Refresh Cylce in half. And while a NIN tank would be better, with that new German sounding armor (especially the +1 of it) that WAR/PLD get at level 29, there is very little need for healing. (i even think that they can use that until AF....)

Heh, AOE Phalanx is overpowered. Hmmm, would give those Trio/Duo pts with RDM tanks that we usually see taking stuff like Avators a new dimension.

I think the WORSE thing would be to make either the Refresh II or Phalanx II stackable with the level I iterations.

[Icemage]

Originally posted by WishMaster3K
I had a nice, thought out post yesterday... but due to some bandwidth issues at my school, my post was lost ; ;. I'll try to recount.

Essentially, giving RDM a Regen II would be hilarious as all fudge-filled-fairies because a WHM would have a very narrow job description, save for possibly Erase and a few other things.

And giving RDM a Refresh II would make it even harder for bards to compete. I mean, a lot of idiotic players think that Mage's Ballad is better than Refresh, so if a RDM was able to cycle between two spells- Refresh PLD tank, and Refresh II the mages, perhaps- It would tip the balance in a new way.

I personally never had to compete with Bards, because ppl knew me (i made sure that the ppl I saw regularly remember only fond thoughts of Renarudo the Red) and/or I had 2 friends that always pted with me. (pts were usually us: RDM, BLM, RNG; then a dedicated Tank, dedicated Melee and any other job that could backup voke)

In fact, my LS is pretty much agreeing with me when I stated that BRD are like some wierd bootleg-Red Mage. They get swords and shields, and they pretty much have similar spells, except for the entire "Song Range" thing that can hit an entire area. I mean, I never thought about BRD that way until I saw that they get a bootleg dispel at 33......

Anyone know if BRD get an upgrade to Mage's ballad? The site i checked pretty much only went to lvl 50, and the other sites i know are blocked at school.

Eh? Bards and Red Mages get similar spells? Since when? This whole post is completely in the wrong context, since the poster is level *31*.

At level 31, of COURSE you haven't had to compete with bards for a spot - you haven't got either Convert or Refresh yet.

Bards get Mage's Ballad II at level 55(2MP/3sec). Stacked with Mage's Ballad I(1MP/3sec), this produces the a similar 3MP/tick bonus as Refresh does, but without MP costs - hence the competition between RDM and BRD.


Icemage

[tdh]

Originally posted by WishMaster3K
Anyone know if BRD get an upgrade to Mage's ballad? The site i checked pretty much only went to lvl 50, and the other sites i know are blocked at school.

Yes, Mages Ballad II @ Lv.55.

I never really thought about what bono said. That with our Enfeebling skills, a Lv.2 Slow, or Paralyze would be useless. Now that I've seen that, I withdrawl that request.

I still would like a RefreshII. Though, after hearing all the different ideas about implemintation, I'm not sure how I'd like it. I know RDM is a very strong class, and I think we may be one of the hardest classes to balance, but I still want more!! lol

Regen II would be very nice! Raise II would be nice as well. Phalanx II or Phalanxaga, as nice as those might be, I could do with out them.

Another consideration would be a Hastaga. BRD gets a Haste song, we get Haste 8 levels behind WHM. So give us something at Lv.60 or so that can toss in some more Haste.

Reflect would be kick ass, but I think it would really make a job class to over powered.

Just thoughts though.

[WishMaster3K]

thanx for answering the question with attitude, Icemage...

And while Bards have stuff like Accuracy+ songs, Regen Songs, Strength+ songs, I was refering to the songs that seem to do the same things Debuffs from a RDM do.

You didnt have to be rude about it, i KNOW I'm 31, and everyone else can see that. Oh, and how would me getting Refresh and Convert make the competition Worse, if thats what your implying. :confused:

[neighbortaru]

BRD's get a slow song. Comparing BRD and RDM debuffs, the things they lack are paralyze, blind, dia, bio and gravity.

[Justarius]

After 55 BRDs >> RDM in terms of XP party usefulness. This is because of Ballad 2 that basically is an AoE Refresh (3MP/tic total in combination with Ballad I) Plus BRDs can increase melee effectiveness (accuracy & damage) much more so than the result of a Dia II & Gravity would ever be able to. Good bards even land Threnody for extra burst damage. I am a 75 RDM myself, but I dont delude myself into thinking that given equal skill, certain classes are superior to others for expiernce parties. How many non-tanks actually know what Carnage Elegy does? or understand why RNGs always moan and groan about getting prelude? No one really sees the effect of BRDs, since they are support and make big numbers appear for other party members. But dont fret, there are still very few BRDs compared to RDM probably since BRDs suck horribly solo. But pts with a BRD, RDM, BLM are typically fun.

but yea, Regen 2 would be nice. Apparently Regen was originally a RDM only spell, but after a fair amount of bitching WHM also got it, and then II, and III.

[neighbortaru]

a BRD+RDM party would be godly...

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by neighbortaru
a BRD+RDM party would be godly...

There are problems with it, however. Basically, because you limit yourself in the backline you can support. If you take BLM, then you have a *very* powerful backline, that fully supports the front line with damage, buffs, and heals. However, when the eventual death happens (you just kinda have to accept that somebody will most likely die without a WHM around...you get deaths sometimes even WITH a whm around), somebody is stuck eating a Raise I. When I make this kind of party, I accept the fact (I usually try to keep reraise on me just so I can raise myself and not waste the parties time *too* much) that I won't be getting higher raises. Other people...well, they can range from having the same attitude as me to refusing to take anything but a Raise II/III. *Note* This arguement is based on lv55+, seeing as before then, BRD and RDM are not at their full potential. Before then, Raise I vs II/III is not an issue.

So...RDM/BLM/BRD is one of the more powerful backlines...but if someone dies its a bitch. What do you do? Get a WHM! The problem with this backline is that it adds little to no fire power, aside from assorted bursts from the RDM. So for this party to work, you have to have some BIG damage melee's. Even then, this party's killspeed will be slower than others. At the same time, I'm not entirely sure how it would work, seeing as the only job I have 55+ is BLM, and as such, have never been in such a party. I'm sure this would be a fantastic party if you're nearing the end of an exp camp (meaning...62 in onzozo, 68-69 in Boyahda, 70-71 in Den of Rancor), as you tend to need less damage at the end (because melee damage gets ramped up when they're closer to the mobs level).

Personally, I despise leveling without a whm. That's cause if anyone in the party dies, it's usually me, and having to eat Raise I at lv72 basically defeats the purpose of exping. I like having BLM/WHM/BRD or BLM/WHM/RDM. Mainly, I see the difference between BRD and RDM is that BRD helps melee's do more damage, while RDM adds damage directly with MB's. They both have their advantages. However, I can count the number of times I partied with a bard almost on one hand...they're just really rare, and mostly will out level you in seconds.

[_11of8]

My static party is this setup:

NIN/WAR
WAR/THF/NIN - Varies on situation
MNK/WAR
RDM/WHM/BLM - Varies on situation
WHM/BLM
BRD/WHM

We've a very defined pattern to our gameplay that makes exping a breeze. We don't always hit chain 5 due to the time it takes to pull the monsters to our camp, but we make up for that with 0 down time, even on AOE mobs. Even the WHM gets to spam a Holy on most fights and never dips below 200 MP.

BRD+RDM in any competent party will result in great exp and little down time. They don't compete for PT spots; they compliment each other in them.

[Laehn]

Dont worry about brds. Brds and rdms share a couple spell effects, but for the most part, theyre opposites. Anyone who thinks rdms and brds are at odds against eachother obviously doesnt know much about the two jobs.

People often consider both jobs refresh monkies and interchangeable because of that, but thats a very small part of both of our jobs and a pretty short-sighted comparison. You cant simply replace a rdm and hope to get the same benefits with a brd or vice versa. There are places where rdms are going to pwn brds in party play, and other times where brds are going to be more helpful. Brds main focus in a party and biggest help comes from melee augmentation, rdm on the other hand are more focused on gimping the monster. This makes brds more suited for highly offensive and risky parties and weaker in more defensive party setups than a rdm.

Every job has its advantages and short comings, its no different for rdm. Be thankful rdms are so powerful in their own right, lots of jobs would kill to be able to solo HNM and other tough monsters. But theres a tradeoff, your all around ability makes you an extremely useful utility character for filling almost any spot that needs to be filled, but that doesnt make you a replacement for that spot. Rdms are always going to be in high demand because of that flexibility and no other job can fill those big shoes.

[Justarius]

WHM/BLM/BRD is better than RDM/BLM/BRD if the best xp area for that level requires Status Cures - petrify/disease/cures, or if your tank is underequipped :spin: Having raise2+ is always nice, but shouldnt really be a deciding factor in an XP party aimed at getting XP, not minimizing XP loss. NIN tanks are usually less work for RDM to main heal as well.

and yes, you can replace a RDM with a BRD in a competent xp pt, and probably be better off.

[Jubbermuffin]

I've been exping with my BRD friend lately, and even though we seek as a duo, getting parties isn't too hard. I do rue the lack of a whm sometimes, especially after eating a raise 1 just last night, but I'd say almost all of the sticky situations I've been in during a rdm + brd party could've been avoided with more thought or concentration.

[Laehn]

Originally posted by Justarius
and yes, you can replace a RDM with a BRD in a competent xp pt, and probably be better off.

Sometimes yes, but not all the time. Ro'maeve is an example. If youre fighting weapons, youre going to wish you had a rdm instead of a brd. Finale just takes too long to recast.

[Justarius]

that only effects the 1st spawns of weapons. you should be pulling weapons fast enough as they spawn so they they probably dont even have a buff on them at all. Many good BRDs are pullers in RoMeave since they run out and pull @ 25% life and sleep the mob right at the doorway until the previous one dies. Chain#8 or 9 depending on if the can pull enough mobs in time with the occasional Golem mixed in for fun.

Althrough RoMeave really sucks in terms of xp after 72.