Experimentation in RDM Tanking

[Patchinko]

Originally posted by Lynsy
Depends on HP cured with Benediction...Bene has vastly varying hate levels.

The 61 NIN, WAR and RNG were all in the red or low levels of yellow, and the DRK was yellow. It probably healed for the 3000 or so, at least enough that I was the first to get hate back with my sleeps, even after vokes from both the NIN and WAR.

[Lynsy]

Sleep is a lot of hate, yes, but its not that much hate. Otherwise there would have been no way our PLDs held hate off the RDMs and BLMs that kept Fafnir slept for ~15hrs.

[Mila]

I really like this sleep idea >_>

[GASGUL]

add Bind to the list too,

I was skilling up in Bayoda on Steel's, and asked i I could take the first lot of hits for the eva/shield/parry ups, just till stoneskin wore off, pld aggreed to voke when i started to take real dmg, I would peel it off the pld after Stnstk re-application with bind/dispel, if curing him did not turn the crab back for long enough,

[Deneb]

Sleeping a mob every so often so it stays asleep is one thing, but spamming both sleeps, dispel, blind, etc all at once will generate a sizable sum of hate, ive had warriors not be able to pull the mob back off me after i cycled through those spells once. I in no way condone serious redmage tanking either, but if the pld, war, or nin falls were probably the next best thing in terms of damage mitigation.

[PurrajofFenrir]

Hello, my name is Purraj, and im on the fenrir server.

I have been tanking with my rdm since lvl 15, and am now 55.

Some tips for hate control:
BIND
BLIND
SLEEP
GRAVITY

I use an earth staff, and fight IT+++ mobs with it. I take 60~ dmg when plds will take 80~.

I think the E-staff is an effective tool for fighting extremely tough monsters(220~ on first pull). Otherwise, your hate control will suffer. On weaker mobs, i use a sword and sheild. At 55 my def is between 400-450.

I DO use stoneskin.

Send me message if youd like to compare notes. Ive been fine tuning my tanking, but its hard when not able to ask others.

I focus a lot on vitality, whereas you focus on defense, id like to compare notes.

BTW, i have had many pld vs rdm tank-offs, and am so far undefeated.

If youre DDs are holding back, maybe i can help you solidfy youre hate control.

[Apple Pie]

Well, we should know those spells such as Bind and Sleep don't contribute to total damage from the PT at all. The same for Earth Staff. We have 0 skill for it.

PLD, on the other hand, has A- skill although there's almost no PLD use them in regular XP PT (except for the ones against some hard punchers like Wyverns but in this case, NIN tank works far better). They have access to Spirit Taker, too, which is one of great weapon skills.

It must be our job to be a tank temporarily once our main tank is killed by accident. We can at least survive for 45 seconds with Chainspell and Blink / Stoneskin.

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by PurrajofFenrir

BTW, i have had many pld vs rdm tank-offs, and am so far undefeated.

pardon me, but my bullshit meter is going off.

If youre DDs are holding back, maybe i can help you solidfy youre hate control.

yeah, that's just what i want. DD's holding back.

there's no doubt that you can MAKE it work. you can MAKE anything "work". will it work nearly as well as a paladin? hell no.

[Asherek]

Ah I see Purraj has found this post too. He's the one that has posted his ideas in the "other site" with the "other" thread, if anyone is curious.

Can RDM/WAR work well? Yes.

Can you outtank every single PLD out there including the best ones? Most likely not.

How many RDM/WAR do you see tanking HNM's?

[Apple Pie]

I'm rather curious about how you get 400 - 450 defence without Defender at LV55. You should first post screen shots of your character.

I use an earth staff, and fight IT+++ mobs with it. I take 60~ dmg when plds will take 80~.

PLDs are better users of Earth Staff as I stated and if they really use it:

1) They do 10 times more damage than any RDMs do with it.
2) They take almost the same damage as any RDMs take.

Phalanx only cuts 12 damage at LV55 and it only makes up for the difference of defence between PLD and RDM. If both have exactly the same defence (although that never happens unless PLD is poorly equipped), the difference of damage taken between them should only be 12 as a result.

[amastacia]

Purraj, you may be able to claim anything you like at the "other" site, but that simply will not work here.

You're up against a formidable force with a parser and a lot of curiosity (Grendal), who has a real knack for digging up the truth on most everything.

You may be able to tank passably well, but if you come here and claim you can out-tank a good PLD, it will be most amusing to watch you get put in your place.

I don't think anyone is denying RDM's ability to tank somewhat well, especially for short stretches. It's more the "top tier" tank opinion that is disliked, and if you want to change anyone's opinion, it's time to start using a parser, making usable (i.e. not crappy, worthless little clips) videos, and otherwise showing incontrovertible proof that you are correct. Until then, people are going to keep throwing numbers and the very real shortcomings of RDM back at you to attempt to show that RDM can tank alright, but not as well as classes that were specifically built for tanking (paladin), or have job abilities that adapt so well to it that their ability cannot be denied (ninja).

[Ruic]

Originally posted by PurrajofFenrir
Hello, my name is Purraj, and im on the fenrir server.

Hi, nice to meet you. I take it that you're the person that everyone is speaking of.

I have been tanking with my rdm since lvl 15, and am now 55.

Some tips for hate control:
BIND
BLIND
SLEEP
GRAVITY

I tanked my share back in the Dunes, Qufim and the Jungle, when I thought RDM/WAR was the best combination for parties. At lower levels, you simply can't compete due to the lack of tools such as defender though. You also have a much better role to fill, using the much more powerful effects of universally unresisted debuffs at low levels.

I use an earth staff, and fight IT+++ mobs with it. I take 60~ dmg when plds will take 80~.

I take that much damage without an earth staff. I don't know what your race is, but since I am a hume, you shouldn't vary much from me unless you're a Taru.

I think the E-staff is an effective tool for fighting extremely tough monsters(220~ on first pull). Otherwise, your hate control will suffer. On weaker mobs, i use a sword and sheild. At 55 my def is between 400-450.

While you say 400-450, I'm much more likely to believe you're closer to the 400 end, than the 450 end. 450 is closer to what I can barely achieve at 58, wearing all AF up until that level. In fact, I think I land a bit shy of that at 445 or something. I'm with Apple Pie on calling you out here.

I DO use stoneskin.

If you're using sleep and those other abilities to act as hate controllers, as opposed to healing yourself, I can see why stoneskin would be worthwhile.

Send me message if youd like to compare notes. Ive been fine tuning my tanking, but its hard when not able to ask others.

Why have a private discussion? Everyone here deserves to learn.

I focus a lot on vitality, whereas you focus on defense, id like to compare notes.

I focus on DEF to keep damage consistent, which allows me to flatten the pace of the fight, and micromanage hate as a reaction to what my party members. I also have to make up for the base deficit we have in DEF compared to other tanks.

BTW, i have had many pld vs rdm tank-offs, and am so far undefeated.

I don't believe you. A Paladin with two of my ranger friends can hold hate, barely. Even if I spam cures I can't even start to approach his level of hate control. Also, your experience is almost all pre-AF for Paladins I imagine. When they have all their +Enmity on, you'll see just how blown out of the water we are.

If youre DDs are holding back, maybe i can help you solidfy youre hate control.

Given that my DDs are RNGs, DRKs, and BLMs, it's not surprising that they have to hold back. Barrages+WSs, Souleater+WSs, Ancient magic bursts etc, all of those things can pull hate off just about anyone.

---

Response to Purraj aside...

I don't tank because I think RDM tanks are the best. I tank because my friends and I simply don't have suitable tanking for our playstyle. I adapted to fit that, to be honest, I expected a disaster. I was proved wrong however.

RDMs have the ability to do anything in this game, with a natural ability somewhere between 60 to 80% of how well another job can do the same thing. If you boost performance enough through subjob choice, and equipment, you can maybe act at 80-90% potency, but you will never put them out of a job.

I like to experiment with these potentials, and then share my results here, for other RDMs to consider. Some of the things I've brought to share have been the RDM Archery thread, an aside in the "Stop Meleeing Already" thread, a thread discussing equipment changing, and strategy, and most lately this thread discussing the possibilities of RDM tanking. In doing so, I've learned a lot myself, and I hope that you're all enjoying my experiments as well.

[Ruic]

Double post. Sorry. O_o

[Asherek]

I appreciate your style of thinking a lot Ruic. In fact, I respect you (from reading your posts on this thread) a 100 times more than Purraj.

Continue to post your results, I'm intrigued.

Rate up! Er, oops, not on the "other" site. :spin:

[kaply]

This post at least seems feasible compared to the other site. I couldn't see how a RDM tanking could hold hate using BLINK/STONESKIN. Those two spells just took so long to cast that you aren't doing anything to add hate while casting those. The other poster also supported using convert in the middle of fights so they could Cure and gain hate on themselves. While this does sound very nice on paper, you just can't take that kind of risk in an XP PT.

Some Q's:
- Do you use DoT damage for additional hate? Their over time damage does contribute to your own hate as I've tested this with Dia as a BST. I believe someone posted about Poison2 damage in fights as being significant for the MP cost, something like 2k dmg? I would imagine Bio2 and/or Dia2 should also contribute a sizable amount of damage as well as hate. These are also good in that they're a consistent form of damage that isn't resisted. (not sure about poison2).
- One of the spikes has paralyze or stun that you should be able to use already. I would imagine having the mob stunned or paralyzed would help in tanking as well. Less hits on you = less hate lost. Might only be useful to cast right before the fights start.
- Have you tested tanking with boiled crab? I believe that gives a greater increase in VIT which as a non PLD you have less of. Which should mean that it benefits you more.