Experimentation in RDM Tanking

[Ruic]

Hello. Please be warned, this is an extremely long post. However, it is something I would like to share with you all. It is the results of my experimentation with RDM tanking. You may choose not to believe me about the information I present, and dismiss me as simply crazy, and that's your choice. But this is for those out there like me, who are curious, and want to push their job to its limits.

First let me say that by no means do I endorse RDM tanking. These are my experiences, and my tanking was done in a supportive linkshell which encouraged me, and accomodated me. They were all as shocked as I by the results at some points, and offered encouragement and criticism which helped me to provide this information to you. But the truth is, most people will just laugh at you, and some will think they can get away with RDM tanking without putting in 110%. Nevertheless, on with the show. :D

I've gone from 52, to 57.5 tanking for parties.

In a short overview: From 52 to 55, I levelled on Knight Crawlers and Crawler Hunters in Crawler's Nest. From 55 to 57.5, I have levelled on Mourioches (Mandragora type) monster in Boyahda Tree.

My parties have included any combination of the following equalling six, with at least one RNG, and one WHM, since always one of them has been in party.

1x WAR
1x DRK
2x RNG
2x WHM
1x BLM

So let's talk about some of the strategy about why, and how I was going to actively tank as a RDM/WAR. First off, I'd like to point out that I am a Hume, and have a fully levelled WAR subjob. So there's your flat base.

My strategy was as follows:
1. Maximize DEF.
a. Maximize cast protective abilities.
b. Minimize enemy special attack damage.
c. Minimize downtime while maintaining a and b.
d. Maximize combat defensive skills.
2. Maximize hate.
a. Use abilities and wise spell decisions to draw hate.
b. Minimize downtime while doing so.
c. Reduce danger to party members, keep them aware of hate.
3. Special notes, and Genkei 2 info.


Now that we've laid out the function of my strategy, let's talk about how this all played out.

Scenario 1: Levels 52-55
Enemy: Knight Crawlers and the occasional Crawler Hunter
Problem: Deal with enemies that do moderate-high damage, with medium attack speed, and have double attack. Special attacks to be aware of included Sticky Thread (Slow), and Poison Spray (Water/Poison). Scorpion special attacks weren't affected much by any adjustments in DEF. All dispels of Coccoon were performed by RNG using acid bolts.

Scenario 2: Levels 55-58
Enemey: Knight Crawlers, Mourioches, Robber Crabs
Problem: See Knight Crawler Assessment above, apply the same to crabs. Mourioches are a special case. They are mandragoras, monk types, who have very few dangerous special attacks beyond sleep. However the new challenge was dealing with the triple attack threat of mandragoras with kick attacks. If caught off guard without an ability or spell up, I could get pummelled.

1. Maximize DEF.
I had a pretty low DEF starting out, because at this point it was theoretical, and I had no clue where I stood. I had about 230 DEF when I started, thanks to tanking items like phalanx rings, and some decent armor, and protect spells.
DEF = 230
First step I took was to constantly maintain defender. My job was tanking.
DEF = 230 * 1.25 (Defender) = 287.5
Second step was to use Fish Mithkabobs.
DEF = 287.5 * 1.22 = 350.14
DEF while tanking: 350
I'd solved problem 1. I had DEF comparable to a tank at my level.
Crawlers hit me for 50-65 damage on average. Comparably equipped PLD took almost the exact same damage range. I was impressed.

As I levelled up, I put on more and more defensive items, mostly my AF. At level 57 I stand at 284 DEF after Protect III.
DEF = 284
DEF = 274 * 1.25 (Defender) = 355.7
DEF = 342.5 * 1.22 (Fish mithkabob) = 434 (This is HIGH defense for any tank at this level, and nearly approaching the point of diminishing returns for tanks.)
Mandragoras hit me for 30-40 a round. Kicks do 20-25.
Compared to a PLD in a nearby party of the same level.
Paladin took 40-60 a round. Kicks did 25-35.

1.a. Maximize cast protective abilities.
When I began, I started with the whole slew of spells. Every fight I would throw up stoneskin, phalanx, aquaveil, an enspell, a spikes spell, and refresh when necessary. Haste was kept on me by a WHM, as was Regen II usually. Fights usually lasted about 2 minutes, with a bit of lagtime before/after pulls.
My results were encouraging. I was seeing a pretty good performance from all of my abilities. The main problem ended up being poison spray... However, over time I learned some things. First off, Enspells don't add hate through extra damage. Spike spells, don't add hate through extra damage. And finally, stoneskin made my job harder, which will be explained better later on. As it stands now, I solely use Phalanx while fighting Mandragoras. Enspells and spikes have left my buff sequence. Now I solely rely on Phalanx, Haste, Protect and Regen spells. Aquaveil failed to impress me, and was also cut in the end.

1.b. Minimize enemy special attack damage.
Now that the main issue identified was poison spray, I thought about it. I realized this attack was poison, so likely water as well. So I added 2 spells to my buffs cycle. Barwater, and barpoison. After the addition of these spells, the range of Poison Spray changed from 100-300, to 0-100. Many times I fully -resisted- the effects of Poison Spray, lowering this devastating attack to NO damage. The spell combination was effective. Mandragora sleep was the other concern. However, under the effects of barsleep, their Dream Flower attack only held for <20 seconds. And usually when I was woken up, I could simply cure 1 the WHM, and we'd be in business.

1.c. Minimize downtime while maintaining a and b.
Downtime was usually not a problem. The reason being is that we settled into a groove where we'd get chain 4 or chain 5, and I'd convert. Battles usually lasted 2 minutes, and after the fifth fight, I could simply convert, and the WHM dropped a Divine Seal Cure IV on me, and instantly the tank was at top condition, and we were ready for pulls. This was -shockingly- effective. Due to this strategy, we were able to achieve roughly 6 chain 4 or chain 5s and hour, which broke down to 5.5k XP an hour up until 55, at which point the crawlers dropped to 4.5k an hour. After I started dropping buffs that added nothing extra to the fight in all seriousness, downtime dropped to almost nonexistent. I'd often have convert sitting ready for use while I tanked on. This was effective on Mandragoras, though the XP/hour dropped after 57 from about 4.5k an hour to 3-4k an hour, depending on the pulls available, and the presence of other parties.

1.d. Maximize combat defensive skills.
Obviously, parry and shield aren't very highly touted RDM skills. I chose to use my fleuret for parrying, and although I am trying to purchase a Master Shield on my server, one hasn't come into a price range I'm willing to pay yet. But I expect it to drop a lot soon. There was little I could do to accomplish this task, but fortunately my parry/shield skill were very high for a RDM, so I defended myself a fair number of times.

[Ruic]

2. Maximize hate.

This was a far bigger challenge than turning a job with mage in the title into a competent tank. How could I possibly control hate? Especially in some situations where I had 2 RNGs with Slugshot and Sidewinder? I'm going to discuss this in two time periods, pre 55 (and melees gaining powerful WS's) and post 55 (when I had to deal with sidewinder/slugshot/rampage.)

My general strategy was rather simple. I would heal myself like a PLD, voke when it was up, and use Red Lotus Blade at 150%+ TP when I lost hate. I often would use berserk and cancel it, only for that extra hate. Other RDM spells that drew a lot of hate included Refresh (I often peeled a mob casting this) and Dispel (You wouldn't believe the hate this gives.) I ordered the WHMs to limit themselves to Cure IIs, so mp wasn't used overhealing. The RNGs controlled their barrages until it would finish the mob, etc.

Pre-55: I lost hate mostly when the RNGs, or DRK were using their huge sudden damage abilities. I could usually recover hate before the RNGs lost shadows, and even if they did, I could peel it off them by healing them, which was very effective. This worked very easily. The main issue I encountered would be times when the crawler would double attack me, then immediately poison spray for a lot of damage, which caused me to lose a good chunk of hate. Things went very smoothly.

Post-55: I ran into some serious problems. Sidewinder, Slugshot, Rampage, all did tremendous damage. I had a hard time recovering hate within 30 seconds after 1000 point sidewinders, if I could recover it at all. I opted to purchase two Eris Earrings to help me at this point. (+2 enmity each) And I can now peel a mob off in half of the time it took me before. Mandragoras barely do enough damage to me, so hate became difficult to establish at the start of fights at times. Worst case scenario I would lose control of the Mandy for 10-15 seconds or so, in a period between the first and second voke. For these purposes I began saving 300% TP Spirits Within, in order to secure hate on end-chain fights, which allowed the RNGs to blow out their barrages and TP in order to get that last chain link. Even still, I could lose control of the Mandy's hate in 5-15 second bursts. I usually solved this through healing others, voking, using abilities, or using TP depending on need. The only dangerous moments were when the Mandragora slept the party, but chose to attack another.

2.a. Use abilities and wise spell decisions to draw hate.
As stated, I chose to act in many ways as a PLD in the way I managed hate. Minimize damage, use heals to gain hate, and abilities/TP when necessary.

2.b. Minimize downtime while doing so.
Downtime became almost nonexistent after 55 or so. Mandragoras/Crawlers were excellent XP, and little danger, the party became adjusted to how to play under this different hate system.

2.c. Reduce danger to party members, keep them aware of hate.
Obviously I lack as many tools as other tanks to control hate. Because of this, some adjustments had to be made, and some extra attention had to be paid. For example, the WHM may have wanted to heal me after a fight because I was missing 300 HP. But in fact, I'd rather go into the fight harmed in such a way, such that I could use it to gather hate. The RNGs and DRKs had to limit their explosive damage attacks until the mob was nearly dead, which is a normal behavior anyway. Finally, I had to pay a lot more attention to what I was doing. Managing spells, job abilities, and a buff cycle on yourself can be difficult.


3. Genkei 2
Obviously between 55 and 56 I had to complete Genkei 2. Which involves defeating a series of monsters in Xarcabard. These monsters are of three types, a tiger, a hound, and a coeurl. Each one tends to use ancient magic, while having powerful physical attacks. In the alliance that performed this task, a paladin died, and I ended up tanking from then on. What I would like to note from this is that I took -less- damage than the PLD due to some special circumstances. Most of the damage from these monsters came from magical sources. Burst, Flare, and Freeze were cast often. So were -ga IIs. Due to RDM's innate magical defense, and the power of shell with barthunder, I was able to resist some ancient magic down to 200-250, with nothing higher than 450 (!!!) The Paladin that had been killed went down on a 750 damage burst, for comparison.

3. Special Notes
Here are a few nice things you should know as a RDM, regardless of if you ever plan on tanking. And a few things I've learned, among other comments.
- Enspells do not contribute to hate.
- Spikes spells do not contribute to hate.
- Damage done to stoneskin counts to reduce hate towards you, but does not remove any "real" hit points. If curing yourself for hate, this was like shooting yourself in the foot.
- Don't ignore your defense. You'd be shocked how much difference 20 DEF makes.
- Between shell and your magic defense traits, RDMs make incredible tanks against magical attacks.
- I have not died one time while tanking as a RDM. However, there were deaths in a few situations in which the RNGs gained hate and were hit with attacks such as Death Scissors from Crawler Hunters, which instantly killed them.
- Fast cast allowed me to act as a turbo-paladin, and made it easy to avoid interruptions if I was able to focus correctly.

Conclusion:
When I brought this topic up months ago, many people laughed at the concept of a RDM tanking, and said it would be impossible for me to hold hate. At the time, I believed them. However, my curiosity drove me, along with a serious lack of tanks available. In the end, I was very satisfied with RDM's ability to tank, when properly equipped, educated, and played well. The main drawbacks of RDM tanking were that the other mages weren't able to get refresh more than 3-4 times an hour, when an area was pulled out, etc, and that DDs had to hold back a bit more compared to a WAR or PLD tank. Another drawback is the expense. I spent 84k on a pair of eris earrings, that while highly effective and efficient, I am a bit squeamish on having spent so much on them. On the other side, RDM absolutely excels at minimizing damage in a comprehensive fashion. With our innate magic defense, no one else could possibly match our abilities as an anti-mage tank. Our physical tanking ability proved to be very odd, but also very very potent. In many cases it was possible to reduce damage range to something amazingly below that of your typical tanks. However, I don't have enough data to compare physical enemy special attacks on a RDM to a PLD or WAR due to the fact I haven't tanked any monsters that rely on these attacks.

Things I hope to test/experiment with in the future:
- The potency of RDM tanking with an Earth Staff. (Absolute damage minimum perhaps?)
- RDM tanking in full AF. The AF is very defensive, and the bonuses of the Tabard and Hat are very conducive to tanking.
- RDM tanking in a situation where a THF or DRK/THF uses SATA L3 Skillchains.

Thank you for reading my extremely long post. I hope that you enjoyed it, or at least got something out of it. If you have any questions, flames, doubts, or comments, then please reply, I'll try and answer all of them. Thanks!

[Reven]

Only problem I can see with earth staff tanking is that you WONT be doing any dmg, at all. The lack of staff skill really bones rdm in that respect. (wait, why can we equip all those H2h weapons with no skill?) most of the plds will say that earth staff is nice for tanking HNM or for fun, but the sword shield combo is much better for exp. Speaking from the viewpoint of my level 50 pld, the dmg we do makes the difference in our hate keeping. also one of the enimity theorys is that +enimity bonuses kick in whenever you land a hit or action on a mob.
So: not be able to do dmg looses ton of hate, and if the enimity theory is true, not landing hits, you wont get as much from your kris earrings.

One possible thing to consider at 61, the carapace armor offers great def and att bonuses with low HP. if you can successfully hold yourself at yellow on a mob that doesnt have any dangerous high dmg attacks(toramas come to mind)

red mage spells for hate, yes dispel is a ton of hate, but I believe blind also gets more than a standard spell from experience.

And of course convert.....much hate.....

[CarbonFibre]

Wow, cool. Always fun to read when people experiment with unorthodox methods like this. Let us know how Vorpal Blade is with that WAR sub and stacking a Berserk on it every so often.

[Apple Pie]

from the viewpoint of my level 50 pld, the dmg we do makes the difference in our hate keeping.

I fully agree with this.

To be a tank, both PLD and RDM have to sub WAR, eat def+ foods and use defender (not always necessary). From LV1 to LV49, we're able to equip almost all 1H sword that PLDs are. However at LV50, they have access to Tct. Mag. Espadon (D38/Delay257, Atk+12) but we don't. Our best sword is Knight's Sword +1 (D32/Delay233).

As for the sword skill, we are 6 points behind that of PLDs at LV50. This means we have 6 less acc and atk. This doesn't make a huge difference but as we go further, the skill gap is going to be larger resulting in the fact that they're able to get more hate from their sword. At LV70, the differene between A+ and B skill is huge. We're not able to get enough hate from our weapons any more. Overall damage of the PT will be much less compared to the one with PLD tank. We don't have Shield Bash, either.

Well, Ruic never stated RDM tank was better than PLD's (I hate to watch the one on the other website) and I will not object to him. He seems to be doing all right with his static PT and his report looks fine. What I'm only curious about is if he wasn't really one-shotted by Crawler hunters.

In my opinion, RDM tanking works best against MNK-type mobs such as Mandras (except for Korrigan at Boyahda) and Orc Champs. They hit us a lot but each hit is weak. Blazespike does some good damage against them in total without giving them TP back.

[Ruic]

While fighting crawlers, I chose to wear my life belt, and because of the bonus accuracy on the fleuret, I had a hit rate comparable to a Paladin. Was my damage much of any good? No, not really. But most Paladins use defender to keep the DEF up, and don't do an incredible amount of damage either. However I fully agree that damage done by weapons is an important part of paladin, and especially warrior style tanking.

From my observations, paladin style tanking revolves around minimizing damage, doing a low amount of damage, and gaining the majority of your hate through spellcasting, and a few abilities. Warrior style tanking revolves around taking a bigger chunk of damage, but returning that same damage with good consistency, and using a large number of abilities to hold hate, especially if using /MNK. RDM tanking put me in a position where I didn't have the abilities like a warrior, or flash like a paladin, but also put me at the point of lowest damage output. BUT, I was also at the very minimum in damage taken, meaning that comparably, I was doing fairly equal in terms of damage taken:damage dealt in ratio. So it came down to trying to use spells in the right places.

And no, I wouldn't say that RDM is better than PLD or WAR at tanking. Obviously we have a role that we fill far better. I thought I would offer my experiences however.

Oh, and no, I was never one-shot by Death Scissors that I can recall. It did about 700 of my 900 hitpoints. I think I went down to 2 HP once though. :dead:

And what one on another website? Huh? :confused:

[csBahamut]

But most Paladins use defender to keep the DEF up, and don't do an incredible amount of damage either.

I rarely use defender. It usually has no effect on the damage I take, but it does reduce my damage output to almost 0 damage for every hit. Normally, I do 20-40 damage per hit.

I noticed that you don't worry too much about VIT, but with Phalanx, you really don't need VIT as much. Having phalanx plus good defense like that, you get good damage reduction. Trying to add an Earth Staff to that won't help any though. Maybe 4-6 damage per hit. But then again, your ability to hit with a sword is going to become a big problem(from lack of ACC and needing to use defender), so using an Earth Staff might not be bad. Staff could work well once you get access to Spirit Taker perhaps?

You're definitely going to run into some trouble if you try to tank Raptors and Perytons in the Valley of Sorrows. Some of the IT++ there would hit me for over 100 damage, with the rest usually doing anywhere from 70-100. Add in double attacks and some nasty specials, I can forsee some problems there. Maybe weak offense mobs are better for RDM tanking. I prefer tanking high offense mobs because of their lower def(so the melee can hit harder and battles can go faster)., but not the one's with real nasty one-shot moves(i.e. spiders, bees, scorps, etc.).

It's nice to see people experimenting like this rather than just blantently stating such and such job combe can do such and such job. Keep up the nice work.

[Apple Pie]

And what one on another website? Huh?

There's a similar topic (you aren't involved) somewhere on another FFXI forum but after I saw some posts, I realized it wasn't worth reading

[Patchinko]

Very cool. Somehow I doubt I'll be able to convince my friends in my set to let me try it, even though my WAR is above subjob level now... especially since the DRK now has THF sub (though this may help since he can fui hate onto me).

Also, my immediate thought when seeing that you were tanking Mouriches easily was that it's because they're MNK class, and our abilities are all about reducing damage per hit... so we are very good against MNKs. But of course Grendal already addressed that.

I'm wondering how much +evasion gear would make a difference compared to +def gear in the slots that have an option between the two. Maybe because RDM evasion isn't so hot, but DEF can be quite high, it wouldn't be as good, especially with WAR sub that is conducive to higher DEF.

Anyhow, it's cool to see different uses for our versitile job. It would be fun to see how it would work with some of the later level gear RDM can wear but is rarely seen in (like Carapace, etc.).

[IdtBcn]

That "other" site has a poster who is adamantly defending the RDM/WAR combo. He is even calling it the best combo a RDM can have.

I've stopped reading that thread since its so utterly aggravating. The thing I'm scared of the most is the new RDMs who want to go straight RDM/WAR and don't have a mage subjob available because they don't want to be a mage.

[leii]

well in altepa i had a rdm as a trick buddy. he took hits really well. had phalanx + stoneskin + blink on. when blink ran out he started casting Utsusemi.

[Apple Pie]

Yes, as a trick buddy, RDM/NIN works fine as Ruic already showed us his experience in his static PT.

RDM/NIN has the following advantages over other /NINs.

- Fast Cast to safely cast Utsusemi
- Fast Recast
- Phalanx and Stoneskin to back it up

So, we're able to work as a secondary tank.

[WishMaster3K]

....................... I almost Dare someone to try and prove Apple wrong..

On another note, I actually did some unnexpected tanking when the RNG came back to camp in Yutunga jungle with a Goblin (the jungle right outside Kazham, not that crazy one past the first zone...) And half the party zoned likie fools...

RDM/WAR and I was actually able to keep Blink up... Perhaps luck, perhaps the fact that other members of the pt had kick-ass gear... The point is it was possible and it was fun as hell ;

I had to do too much damn work tho to main tank, Gob was bouncing between me and the WHM's Blink, so I can see how a RDM can be a "Secondary" tank or a "Backup" tank or even a "Trick Buddy".

Main Tank? [No thanks.]

[dirtyclown]

i think Ruic deserves a standing ovation for this. through hard work you have proven that we can tank effectively. although i don't see myself endorsing rdm/war anytime soon, since from what i've read you would need some high quality gear and most rdm/war players don't even have dispel. :spin:

great job, Ruic. your unorthodox play strategies have given me a few ideas that i'd like to try when i get some gil together to fund them.

[Mila]

wow... awsome job. :D I stopped tankinga at 40ish because I couldn't hold hate... but I've been looking into those enimity + items... just how much does +1 enimity affect your hate?

Have u tried using Sleep spells for hate?