What is a good sub for rdm?

[Macht]

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
take it to the dark boards and ask them. they know. they will have your proof since you seem to need it.

Trying to get rid of me now I see. Well I stated my point so not much other reason to state anything, probably check on this thread again if I ever remember it.

[Yuanlung]

Take a look at this chart:

http://www.ausystem.org/~aushacho/gbox/ff/skill-e.html


In this game, the skill level cap is the main factor on what you can do and what you can't. Anything below a B will be ineffective against enemies IT and up,.


Now look at dark knights' rating. It's "C". This means you will have problems make enfeebles stick. You might be able to make your enfeebles stronger by equiping +INt/+MND and elemental staffs with corresponding elements, but they can only go so far. Even with my capped C+ enfeeble, +INT gears, and a high quality elemental staff, my blind doesn't stick well against enemies IT and above, even when they are weak to dark.


This is not the only issue. Every job has a very specific role in an exp party. DRK's is to deal damage. Anything that takes away your ability to do so will only make you less attrative and more of a burden to parties. The first issue you will run in as DRK/RDM would be not having /WAR and /THF's damage enhencing abilities such as berserk, double strike, sneak attack, and trick attack. This will immidiately turn off many party invites.


Then there is the TP v.s. MP issue. If you already have a red mage in your party, DRK/RDM is completely meaningless, because a main RDM with A+ enfeebling can out enfeeble you any day, but without a main RDM, you do not get refresh. Whenever you sit down for MP, your TP gets depleted. DRK, and every other physical damage dealer needs TP to keep up their damage.



Frankly, dark knights isn't the most popular job with party invites. Competition for party slots is fierce even for a fully functional DRK. How many invites do you think a gimped DRK will be getting, if at all?



But hey, don't take my words for it. After all, what do I know compared to someone has yet to play the game?

Like bonovoxpsu said, go ahead and try it out yourself. Take a DRK/RDM all the way to 75.

[Macht]

All that chart does is provide more fodder for what I'm stating.

Enfeebling:

WHM = C
BLM = C
DRK = C

Where is their superiority over DRK in using that? The have to equip gear just like you stated, gear I'm sure a DRK can find and most of which can use as well. So case and point done.

Again I already stated that without the data proof of the En- spells. If it gets at least 10 damage from it then that amount you are getting neutralizes the Berserk debait. Beserk when I've used only gives 10 more damage if even.

Then you are stating double attack like it gives DRKs an extreem boost. Because of DRKs slow attacks double attack doesn't kick in as often, and again like already stated earlier you can get equipment to give you a double attack also won't be that great but with the number of swings a DRK does not that terrible for them either.

Aparently you haven't read my previous posts because I already made my statements with the /WAR and /THF, which you are just repeating again. It's like I'm talking to a wall.

The one thing I'm not debating is the SATA use, but with a THF present in the party the need of DRK/THF is less needed just like a DRK/RDM if a RDM is present. Your making pointless reasoning here. It's like me stating you won't need PLD if you have a NIN already or vice versa.

[Laehn]

En spells are an enhancing magic multiplier i think. Thats why enspells never really do much dmg except from someone with enhancing magic skill.

Drks have a B+ in elemental magic, so at least your nukes are more likely to land with some effectiveness compared to rdms. Plus, it might be fun MBing your own skillchains.

Anyways, i have a C skill in all my bard skills, i rarely get resists. Theres no reason someone with a C in enfeebling couldnt do it effectively by spending a little extra gil. Spells like protect, cure series, and dispel could be very nice in an unconventional party too. You could always lower a monsters mnd with an absorb spell to get fewer resists right? Thats something a whm cant do. That might make a difference. A drk might be a pretty good enfeebler, you never know untill you try it, first hand.

At least with drk/rdm, the sub could utilize some of the main jobs current skills and abilities.

What about brd sub, i mean minuet could be like warcry kinda, just a lot longer to use, lol. You could sing some +str etude maybe. That would be kinda interesting.

Yay for gimpy subs. :spin:

[Apple Pie]

The have to equip gear just like you stated, gear I'm sure a DRK can find and most of which can use as well. So case and point done.

Do we want dark knights to give up their great Swords and scythes to equip INT/MND+ wands when they cast enfeebling spells as we do?

A red mage who has A+ (232) skill at LV66, +15 skill bonus from our AF Body, +7 skill bonus from Enfeebling Torque, and +30 MND from gears/foods isn't still perfect and is sometimes in trouble. Check how much skill and stats dark knights can realistically boost by yourself.

Again I already stated that without the data proof of the En- spells. If it gets at least 10 damage from it then that amount you are getting neutralizes the Berserk debait.

I already posted a movie here some time ago proving how en- spells are useless when we sub RDM.

The maximum damage of en- spells we expect when our main job is RDM:
[Enhancing Magic Skill] / 20 + 5 --- affected by the date and weather

When our sub job is RDM, the maximum damage is less than what this formula gives and of course, our skill is halved unless our main job is either BLM, PLD, or WHM.

The one thing I'm not debating is the SATA use, but with a THF present in the party the need of DRK/THF is less needed

Have you ever compared SA+TA Cross Reaper and Spining Slash to SA+TA Dancing Edge and Shark Bite? I can't find any reason to invite thieves as DDs above LV65.

WS Damage: DRK/THF >>> THF
Regular Attacks: DRK/THF >>>> THF
Buidling TP: THF >> DRK/THF
LV3 SC: DRK/THF (Dark/Light) > THF (Light only)

The only situation we need thieves is when we have rangers in our PT. As we know, rangers build their TP very fast and we need someone to catch up with them to have more skillchains.

[fuz]

Eh, I dunno what level drk you have, but berserk on me at lvl 60 boosts my damage on normal ITs by 10-40 per hit, averaging something between 20-30. 25% more attack from berserk on my existing 270+ attack with miths is a lot of extra power!

I don't even have all the attack+ items you could get from some pricier equips, but I have seen other drks my level in my exp PT that have them. They do enough damage through normal attacks that they can't use berserk without pulling hate off a pld, who then wastes timed abilities/mp to get aggro back. Souleater is a big no for them, but damn.. when they durn it on the HP just flies off a mob.

Point is, melee damage is a drk's forte, and upping that greatly increases a drk's effectiveness. Magic is a distant support, just used on occasion. Adding to it will not increase a drk's effectiveness much since it's low already. Simply put, you can't cast more to make up for lost melee damage by using a mage sub rather than a melee sub. You might be able to get away with it at lower levels, but at 50+ the game's rigid system clamps down and eliminates all those who are even slightly less than ideal.

[modnar]

Yaaaaaawwwwwnnnn.... /emote is stretching...

That was a nice nap... so! Lets see what replies I got when I explained my "theoretical" DRK/RDM...

OMG!!!!
Flames ahoy!!!

I guess people seem to have forgetten that I said :
"What I realy find appealing is the DRK/RDM!!

Now THAT is a nice combo that I wish people would come to understand and accept (more than the DRK/THF)..."

I said this is some wishful thinking of getting ppl to accept DRK/RDM. I said I found it appealing.
(And please put in mind that I said /THF!! Not /WAR.)

I am trying to find the original post that I did on the DRK forums where I discussed the DRK/RDM concept, but so far I am out of luck. Not sure how to find it.

However, I think you guys should calm down a bit, take a minute to think. Now imagine the DRK/??? and the possible races...

Race? Yes I said race... the concept of a DRK/RDM is NOT a new concept. This is something that has been discussed and played around with for a while. What, you never saw a Taru DRK/BLM? Yup! That is one combo. But the idea was to have something MORE useful than that combo, which is a DRK/RDM.

I am not sure, but I think that a Taru DRK/RDM is an acceptable option that even parties will like (again, once people come to "understand and accept" the concept that this is an Enfeebling character).

With the Taru INT and the Taru MP, you go Absorb and Enfeeble crazy all the while the party is having a much easier time. Its just a different way of looking at the Dark Knight. DRK is not a simple Damage Dealer (which is my view).

Quote from one of my posts to illustrate my view of the DRK. This was in responce to a Monk/War in the Dark Knights forum that was bashing DRKs. I love DRK and I don't just stand there when ppl undermine them... However, being a Monk/War myself I had a different uproach than to say "DRK UBER DAMAGE 4EVAR!!!11"

Here is the post:
__________________
"You guys forget the Dark Knight's MP or what? Regardless of damage done by either DRK or MNK, DRK has a few spells called ABSORB spells.

Let me put it this way: We are fighting a mob, and we have a PLD, MNK, DRK, BLM in the party.

Now lets look at the damage the melees are doing (all these numbers are made up for the argument. look at the logic and point not at the specifics of the argument plz).

MNK damage = 50 + 50
DRK damage = 100
PLD damage = 70
BLM damage = 250 per cast

Now the DRK casts ABSORB VIT.

Look at the damage:
MNK damage = 52 + 52
DRK damage = 104
PLD damage = 71
BLM damage = 250 per cast

Now the DRK casts ABSORB INT.

Look at the damage:
MNK damage = 52 + 52
DRK damage = 104
PLD damage = 71
BLM damage = 260 per cast

So the damage increase for the DRK was only 4 damage, right? Wrong! the DRK was the one resposible for the increases for ALL of the members dealing damage!!!
The increase is +4 (monk), +4 (DRK), +1 PLD, and +10 BLM = 19 damage!

19 damage that the DRK is responsible for (and I am being minimalistic with the numbers).

Now in this argument I am not looking at what DRKs do with thier swings vs monks and their punches, I am seeing what they are contributing to the party!!!

Dark KNIGHTS are WORTH IT!!!

PS:
This argument coming from a Monk.
I do alot of damage, and in my opinion I do more than a DRK, but damn that DRK can increase the damage of the entire party and that is where he shines as the biggest damage dealer!

But in simple melee to melee damage, MNK has the upper hand (to say it nicely, unlike some ppl that seem to take an argument/debate as an excuse to be rude and insult ppl).
"
_________________________


Anyways. After a while there was a discussion of DRK/BLM (which I am sure you saw running around for a time in your servers right?). The DRK/RDM is a derived from that concept and the concept of enhancing the entire party's damage.

Anyways. Its just a comment from my part. All I said was I was in love with the concept of DRK/RDM. It was only after someone ASKED for me to detail it did I say anything. This is not the DRK forum, so why would I bring it up here unless someone asked?

Ok. I guess I am done. Nice flaming guys. (I guess you got an A+ rating in that? )
Just take it easy and try things out. If you are a Taru, try out DRK/RDM. Hell, if you are any race try it out!! You will be surprized of what can be possible with just a different view.

PS: I still see find the DRK/RDM more appealing than a DRK/THF. I mean imagine that you would have an ACTUAL THIEF in the party that can do SATA from lvl 30!! OMG! THF and DRK in the SAME party?!

Think a bit about it. Some things can be fun AND viable in this game that is so strict and cookie-cutter friendly. And a DRK/RDM is an example of non-cookie-cutter viable fun!

[Apple Pie]

So, why can't it be DRK/WHM?

DRK/WHM is actually seen more often around LV20 - LV30 and is more useful than DRK/RDM in that it is able to have access to Divine Seal (DRK30/WHM15), Curaga (DRK32/WHM16), and other stats cures.

[Prefect]

Part of this seems to be the notion that Enhance spells, since they are cast on yourself, don't get resisted. However, the ones that do damage, En-spells and Spikes, do have a resist check every time they deal damage. If you are fighting xp critters with a RDM sub, unless your main class has Enhancing skill to keep it at a reasonable level, your En-spell is pretty much always going to be resisted for at least half damage, if not resisted all the way down to 0-1 damage.

You can also see this when someone with a SMN sub tries using Rolling Thunder. That half-level Summon skill ends up with pretty much all resisted hits.

[fuz]

Thread has been hijacked so anyway I'll just add a bit more :D.

Drk/whm does work pretty well, even up about level 50 if you just can't get another support char (usually blm) and have 2 drk in a PT. The drk/whm pretty much spends all time using all absorbs and at the end of the battle does a little curing. However it takes really good equips to pull it off at the higher levels and still get chain 5. I had doubts until I saw it work right in front of me--though we did have a bard and the drk/whm was drinking juice.

[Apple Pie]

Yeah, whenever I check search comments of Japanese dark knights from LV12 - LV37, 80% of them write something like "SJ:THF/WAR/WHM."

DRK/WHM drinking juices all the time is excellent. While I was leveling my subs (- LV37), I often see them creating Pineapple Juices while waiting for next one to come.

With /WHM, they can heal themselves without costing another MP of WHM although they use Soul Eater to close the WS at the end of the battle. They can cure themselves, too.

Personally, I like DRK/WAR with a great axe and Axe Belt (+5 great axe skill, need /WAR) best above LV30. WS Sturmwind with Berserk beats any WS of both great sword and scythe around this period. In addition, WS Armor Break on bats and WS Shield Break on beatles/crawlers greatly help us to kill them faster.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Macht
Still seems lacking, you are trying to provide a BST/RDM as being proof enough for a DRK/RDM combination? Where is the control in this kind of setting? Just because they both have /RDM they should be equal in their magic abilities with it?

For all purposes and intents, yes, because neither DRK nor BST have a native enhancing skill, thus it all comes from their subjob.

Originally posted by Macht
Since you are using gear to give that boost what's to stop a DRK from making swapping gear to do the same? Again all just circumstancial with what I feel is lacking evidence of it.

Speaking from an RDM perspective:
My current gear gives me +40 INT and +33 MND.
Exactly one piece of my equipment is DRK equipabble, for a grand total of a +4 INT boost (two if you count the wand, for +12int/+8mnd, but you'd have to be crazy to expect a drk to lose TP switching weapons that way).

You're forgetting that mages have access to a ton of +mnd and +int gear that melee jobs do not.

En-spell damage is 10 unresisted at lvl 74drk/37rdm. However don't be fooled into thinking you will do 10 damage. Even an rdm main with highest-rank enhancing skill gets resisted out the ass vs exp mobs.

[DM337]

Yet this assumption about enfeebling magic comes from a person who has only level MNK to 42, (which gives you no knowledge of enfeebling at that level) and RDM to 15. In the lower levels, skill caps are less pronounced. WHMs and BLMs, despite having C skills, can still land enfeebles pretty effectively, given enough INT and MND gear. As the levels increase, so does the gap in skill between the WHM's C and the RDM's A+. The caps widens even further once you get to level 61, when the skills are calculated in a new way. Add to this the fact that RDMs get +enfeebling skill gear that other classes can't equip, and you'll see that no one can ever match a RDM's enfeebling ability.

Then, you must notice that even with A+ skill, and large amounts of +enfeebling skill gear, and +MND and +INT gear, RDMs -STILL- can have problems landing enfeebles. If a RDM, with loads more skill and stats can't land debuffs, what makes you think a DRK can?

En-spells cannot make up for the difference by losing Berserk/War Cry/Double Attack or Sneak Attack/Trick Attack. Will the /RDM's en-spells, with your half-level enhancing skill, let you do 700-1000 damage WS and put all the hate on the tank, making it risk free? Somehow, I doubt it.

As a Lv. 62 RDM, with near capped enhancing skill (and the AF tights, with +15 skill) got to see my enblizzard doing about 2-15 damage per hit on VT Quadav. Mind you, this is on VT, which aren't as resistant as IT, and it barely added any damage. The main strength of en-spells is to hit fast and accurately, to make the small damage go off many, many times, to make up for the lack of damage. DRKs have big weapons that attack slow, and DRKs are always one to tell you that they are wiff machines, so the 'fast and accurate' advantage of en-spells is completely lost on a DRK.

[Radamvice]

O.o


Sometimes i cannot belive the stuff people dream up and post here as creative genius on thier part...

Could it not be that the majority of the forum has a remote idea what they are talking about and the concept is a "nice try...but no?" kind of idea?

I think the point is if you wanted to try this, great, be aware that doing a poor job of someone elses job, AND a poor job of your own role at the same time (via miserable /sub and whatever equipment changes made) does not make you anything but a wasted spot in the pt when compared to a regular drk/thf~war in your spot.

Why is the forum obligated to prove you wrong?

Beyond this...try using your primary defence of your arguement on yourself for a second.

"Whoa?! Try this! See that bridge? I bet it would be cool to jump off it!"

"umm, no."

"why not?!?! I mean in theory it seems like it would be quite fun!"

" O.o; No, thats crazy!"

"You're close minded and unimaginitive, prove to me its a bad idea!"

A little too much? Not from my perspective, im sure quite a few others would agree.

Great idea, nice concept.

Come back with some information of your idea working in some twisted and mind-boggling fashion, with proof, and maybe the forum wont look at you like you are as out to lunch as the first person who suggested bungee-jumping.

[bonovoxpsu]

"but not jumping off a bridge is sooo cookie-cutter. i'm trying to be a unique Bridge Mage."

:sweat: :spin:

about time you guys showed up...

the moral of the story is:

drk/rdm = no. :