What is a good sub for rdm?

[CarbonFibre]

From what I've read elsewhere on the forum, DRK sub is for HNM battles so you can get stun at 74.

[DrSerpico]

My opinion

In my opinion, you go with blm sub anywhere, unless mobs are spamming status effects, i.e. Toramas and Skeletons.

vs. these mobs, /whm for blindna and paralyna and silena makes all the difference.

Otherwise, blm offers larger mp pool and Conserve Mp trait, as well as elemseal for that imperative sleep/silence.

To give up /blm's mp and conserve mp AND elemseal for /smn's autorefresh is in my opinion not a good idea.

Same thing with /nin and /drk. /smn is for... mebbe questing or something, I dunno. /nin and /drk is for hnm fights, where either stun or blink survivability is needed badly.

In closing, you should keep at least blm and whm subs levelled, and maybe /nin if you feel like going heavy solo. Other than that, you don't need /drk until you're 74, so don't sweat it. ^^

[modnar]

Here is what I see when I think RDM/DRK...

Aspir @ lvl 40
Absorb-MND @ 62
Absorb-VIT @ 70
Absorb-AGI @ 74

So basicaly we are talking about Aspir and how useful it may be for the RDM. And since the RDM job becomes intensive @ lvl 41 (Refresh), I would think getting Aspir at the same time is a blessing.

Having said all that though, I am not in love with the combo.

What I realy find appealing is the DRK/RDM!!

Now THAT is a nice combo that I wish people would come to understand and accept (more than the DRK/THF)...

[bonovoxpsu]

modnar -

please explain your drk/rdm. to be honest, it seems far worse then drk/war and drk/thf.

i'm not gonna complain with what has been said. /whm or /blm is most excellent. /drk for getting aspir early - but not too long and definitely not if you're hurting in the MP department, like an elvaan or galka.

[Jinxie]

I like subbing DRK with my RDM when I go out with my LS farming for drops or NM hunting with or without them. I get +11 attack and around +3 or +4 def boost with a properly lvled DRK sub. With all of my +Attack gear, I end up getting more than +20 on attack. I get the following WS so far at my level:

fast blade
flat blade
burning blade
red lotus blade
shining blade
seraph blade
circle blade

The cool thing about having all the WS is that you can pretty meet nearly all SC requirements. If you're a good RDM, you can start the SC and end it with a MB. Or, better yet, SC starts, rdm does second hit of SC, next person gets SC number 2, then RDM does MB.

[modnar]

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
modnar -

please explain your drk/rdm. to be honest, it seems far worse then drk/war and drk/thf.

sure thing!! ok! I think that I might have explained my view of DRK/RDM in the DRK forums, but I will try to recall and summarize what explained... here goes!

Stats: DRK/THF vs. DRK/RDM

HP = same
MP = /RDM (47 more @ lvl 59)
STR = same
DEX = /Thf (3 more @ lvl 59)
VIT = /Thf (1 more @ lvl 59)
AGI = /Thf (3 more @ lvl 59)
INT = same
MND = /RDM (4 more @ lvl 59)
CHR = /RDM (3 more @ lvl 59)

So basicaly:
Pro:
1) I see a DRK/THF swinging with the same STR as a DRK/RDM.
2) Has more MP for casting.
3) AGI + VIT are not so important since a DRK is not "a tank".
4) INT is not effected so all spells that the DRK/THF would cast have the same effect.
5) More MND for MND based Enfeebles to land.
Con:
1) Less DEX. Might be major, but I think it can be fixed. Lets read on.



Abilities:
Fast Cast = The DRK can spend more time swinging and less time casting spells. Minor, but I put it in for its own sake.

Skill: What can a DRK do?

1) A- rating in "Dark Magic"
2) B+ rating in "Elemental Magic"
3) C rating in "Enfeebling Magic"


I will avoid discussing "Elemental Magic" for the DRK as I am not sure of how useful it might be considered. I will concentrate on the "Dark Magic" and "Enfeebling Magic"


Enfeebling + Dark:

with /RDM
Dia I
Paralyze
Blind
Slow
Diaga I
Silence
Gravity
Dia II
Dispel

Add to that the spells he already has:
Bind
Poisonga I
Sleep
Poison II
Sleep II

Dark:
Bio I
Drain
Bio I
Aspir
Absorb-MND
Absorb-CHR
Absorb-VIT
Absorb-AGI
Absorb-INT
Bio II
Absorb-DEX
Absorb-STR
Poison II
Sleep II

And add the stuff he gets (but only gets 1/2 skill in) in the form of other spells. Notice that some of the "enhancing" spells are not going to be resisted since they are cast on yourself, and therefore are still useful...

(spells the RDM get until lvl 37)

_________________________________
Now what does that look to you? It looks to me as a sweet enfeebler that is swinging with STR and a huge weapon. Not the same damage as /THF because it has SATA, correct?

Let me now tell you a view of this (which I picked up being support class from other games). Your party does damage = x. But you cast an "enfeeble" that allows them to do damage = x + y. My view is that damage "y" is actualy damage that is credited to you. Now a SATA might do a certain amount of damage at one blow, but think of how much damage "y" each party member is doing for every swing/cast that they are doing. All that extra damage is because of you, the DRK/RDM.

So now you have a character that is swinging a great weapon (which can be Enhanced by adding an effect to it), which can cast Cures on himself if he needs, Protect + Shell, Bar-spells, as well as other stuff which can be useful (Dispel!!!), as well as Enfeeble the mob for the good of the party, whether it is to save them saving thier HP or for them increasing their damage.

A character that can be useful in a party because he is a Damage Dealer as well as an Enfeebler as well as useful Solo since he has many utility spells which come in handy (lets see if he can solo or not... not sure, but I can dream about this one).


Ok. I am going to bed. I am not sure if everything is readable... but I will find out when you guys read it and give me your feed back...


PS: This is`all theory.

[Macht]

Hmm, from Modnar's post a DRK/RDM does seem fairly viable. You'll be able to use all the En- Element spells on your weapon. Putting on the right En- spell for each monster would give it a decent bonus to damage as well.

With each hit doing some 10-20 damage more by the En- spell and you effectively cover the benefits of /WAR's Berserk. Also not to mention that for pathetic abilities getting "Resist Petrify" from /RDM would be more effective then "Resist Virus" if they ever actualy work.

That might actually be scarry to see a DRK/RDM with a Kraken club using an En- spells with Souleater and Blood Weapon active.

[bonovoxpsu]

none of your enfeebles would stick except dia and bio. and whms, rdms, and blms can all do it better then you.

dex is always good as a dark. mp isn't a big deal.

and you lose out on sneak attack and trick attack.

so, its looking pretyt horrible. heh, hope that doesn't seem too rude.

but your enfeebles won't stick and your en-spells will not help worth anything. maybe 1-8 extra damage.

its more important to get more dex or just go /war. fast cast is kind of useless for darks too.

so while its great for soloing, its really not that nice. sorry

[edit] - no, it won't work, its horribe.

[Icemage]

Ok, I'll bite.

Originally posted by modnar
Stats: DRK/THF vs. DRK/RDM
<snip>
Pro:
1) I see a DRK/THF swinging with the same STR as a DRK/RDM.
2) Has more MP for casting.
3) AGI + VIT are not so important since a DRK is not "a tank".
4) INT is not effected so all spells that the DRK/THF would cast have the same effect.
5) More MND for MND based Enfeebles to land.
Con:
1) Less DEX. Might be major, but I think it can be fixed.

Extra MP means a whole lot of nothing once you have any sort of MP recovery in a group(25+ with a BRD, 41+ with RDM)

MND-based enfeebles? Leave that to the RDM or WHM and keep hitting with your weapon, please. They're much, much better at it (and speaking as a WHM, I'm not even close to an RDM at my level at sticking Paralyze/Slow/Silence).

Less DEX sucks. A lot. DRK have low accuracy already, losing 3 dex hurts a lot more than you can imagine.

Originally posted by modnar
Abilities:
Fast Cast = The DRK can spend more time swinging and less time casting spells. Minor, but I put it in for its own sake.

DRK usually cast maaaybe 3 spells in a fight (usually 1 or 2 Absorbs, maybe a Drain and/or an Aspir). Fast cast I will shave off... oh... less than 1 second of total spellcasting time. It will speed up recast of Stun slightly, however.

Originally posted by modnar
Skill: What can a DRK do?

1) A- rating in "Dark Magic"
2) B+ rating in "Elemental Magic"
3) C rating in "Enfeebling Magic"

I will avoid discussing "Elemental Magic" for the DRK as I am not sure of how useful it might be considered. I will concentrate on the "Dark Magic" and "Enfeebling Magic"

DRK elemental magic is about as useful as a SMN's avatar elemental spells (read: complete waste of MP).

Originally posted by modnar
<list of spells trimmed>
Blind
Gravity
Dispel

Those are the only 3 significant spells you'd get from /RDM, none of which will land very often due to C rank in Enfeebling.

Originally posted by modnar
And add the stuff he gets (but only gets 1/2 skill in) in the form of other spells. Notice that some of the "enhancing" spells are not going to be resisted since they are cast on yourself, and therefore are still useful...

Be still my beating heart! Wow, DRK/RDM can cast Enthunder and add a whopping 3 damage to their super-slow attacks.

Originally posted by modnar
Now what does that look to you? It looks to me as a sweet enfeebler that is swinging with STR and a huge weapon. Not the same damage as /THF because it has SATA, correct?

Let me now tell you a view of this (which I picked up being support class from other games). Your party does damage = x. But you cast an "enfeeble" that allows them to do damage = x + y. My view is that damage "y" is actualy damage that is credited to you. Now a SATA might do a certain amount of damage at one blow, but think of how much damage "y" each party member is doing for every swing/cast that they are doing. All that extra damage is because of you, the DRK/RDM.

So now you have a character that is swinging a great weapon (which can be Enhanced by adding an effect to it), which can cast Cures on himself if he needs, Protect + Shell, Bar-spells, as well as other stuff which can be useful (Dispel!!!), as well as Enfeeble the mob for the good of the party, whether it is to save them saving thier HP or for them increasing their damage.

A character that can be useful in a party because he is a Damage Dealer as well as an Enfeebler as well as useful Solo since he has many utility spells which come in handy (lets see if he can solo or not... not sure, but I can dream about this one).

The main problem isn't that the enfeebling strengths you've detailed aren't valid. The problem is that there are other jobs much more suited to doing these tasks in a party, who have more MP to do it with, and don't lose melee damage while they're doing it.


Icemage

[bonovoxpsu]

with war you get a bunch of passive/active abilities that are much more effcient then /rdm.

provoke, berserk, defender, warcry. not to mention double attack and physical attack up.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/spelll...ml?job=warrior

and your enhancing is going to be half the power of what you have. and as a dark it will be resisted a lot.

i wanted him to post to see if there was something i was missing. but it turned out that it was what i thought.

a dark should never enfeeble. the only sorta enfeebles they shouldd cast are the absorb spells - which are dark based. and an rdm sub would not help in any significant way at all.

soooo... its a bad sub really. sorry.

[Macht]

The hardest thing I have with swallowing this info against the combination is your justification of the actual numbers. Otherwise you're just giving blind criticism, how do you actually know that an En- spell is only going to be 1-8 damage? or even just 3 damage.

What hard proof do you have of that damage amount to discredit the use of En- spells. Same goes with the Enfeeble abilities, you're providing paper results to counter paper results without actual physical testing. If Science did that I doubt we'd of advanced much today, they provided a theory.

Theories are not suppose to be shot down with circumstansial reasoning, better damn well do some testing with it before you say it's completly horrible.

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
with war you get a bunch of passive/active abilities that are much more effcient then /rdm.

provoke, berserk, defender, warcry. not to mention double attack and physical attack up.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/spelll...ml?job=warrior

and your enhancing is going to be half the power of what you have. and as a dark it will be resisted a lot.

i wanted him to post to see if there was something i was missing. but it turned out that it was what i thought.

a dark should never enfeeble. the only sorta enfeebles they shouldd cast are the absorb spells - which are dark based. and an rdm sub would not help in any significant way at all.

soooo... its a bad sub really. sorry.

DRK already gets the attack up. They actually get 3 last I knew, since the one that WAR provides is at 30 and DRK gets that same one at 30 the WAR isn't adding any more then what DRK would of normally recieved.

Provoke for a DRK is situational he'll rarely use if ever. In that same effect since DRK is not generally a tank Defender is wasted too. Without real hard data evidence trying to state that Berserk and Warcry will work better then an En- spell is not something proven.

The only advantage actually provided is the use of Double Attack with /WAR. A passive ability you have little control in and because of DRKs slow attacks to begin with it's a passive ability that'll fire less. Also you can cover the Double Attack effect with gear if need be.

[Icemage]

The hardest thing I have with swallowing this info against the combination is your justification of the actual numbers. Otherwise you're just giving blind criticism, how do you actually know that an En- spell is only going to be 1-8 damage? or even just 3 damage.

My LS mate who is BST70 uses RDM sub, and we go hunting sometimes. His enspell damage hovers between 0 and 5 consistently on ~level 60 monsters.

I can tell you the success of enfeebling magic at C rank because WHM have the exact same level of skill. Trust me, rank C enfeebling sucks. I have to overload on +Enfeebling and +MND to make Slow/Paralze/Silence stick even 50% of the time on incredibly tough XP mobs.

This is not conjecture, it's backed by experience.


Icemage

[bonovoxpsu]

ok, lol, fine.

go get a pt as drk/rdm past 20 or so. prove me wrong, take it to 75.

lol. its ok. i know i know, i don't know anything. so no need to listen to me.

so, i'm done. it IS a bad job combo. but hey, go for it, prove me wrong, take drk/rdm to 75. i would be mightly impressed if you got past 30 like that.

actually, propose this on the dark board. they know better then me and you might be more satisfied with their answers.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Icemage
My LS mate who is BST70 uses RDM sub, and we go hunting sometimes. His enspell damage hovers between 0 and 5 consistently on ~level 60 monsters.

I can tell you the success of enfeebling magic at C rank because WHM have the exact same level of skill. Trust me, rank C enfeebling sucks. I have to overload on +Enfeebling and +MND to make Slow/Paralze/Silence stick even 50% of the time on incredibly tough XP mobs.

This is not conjecture, it's backed by experience.


Icemage

Still seems lacking, you are trying to provide a BST/RDM as being proof enough for a DRK/RDM combination? Where is the control in this kind of setting? Just because they both have /RDM they should be equal in their magic abilities with it?

Now just like you pointed out you have to use a set of equipment to get your WHM to use enfeeble well stating that the DRK/RDM is going to be equal your, WHM, ability with it. So what happened to WHM being able to cast better then?

Since you are using gear to give that boost what's to stop a DRK from making swapping gear to do the same? Again all just circumstancial with what I feel is lacking evidence of it.

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
ok, lol, fine.

go get a pt as drk/rdm past 20 or so. prove me wrong, take it to 75.

lol. its ok. i know i know, i don't know anything. so no need to listen to me.

so, i'm done. it IS a bad job combo. but hey, go for it, prove me wrong, take drk/rdm to 75. i would be mightly impressed if you got past 30 like that.

actually, propose this on the dark board. they know better then me and you might be more satisfied with their answers.

That is just my point though, I start demanding actual proof and now you try to belittle me. That's why combinations are never seen in the possibilities they could provide. Of course if I were to state this on the DRK board they'd shun it as well without actually gathering physical data to prove it.

If you never did actual true testing with it and can't provide me that data then I'd hold back on your criticism till you have that data. Here is a prime example of a theory and a sort of joke:

You have a cricket, place it on a marked spot on the floor. You yell at it JUMP! and the cricket jumps maybe 4 feet away.
Now you take the cricket rip off of the smaller legs, place in on a marked spot on the floor.
You yell again JUMP! and the cricket jumps maybe 2 feet away.
Do this again and rip off 2 more legs, again place it in the spot and again yell JUMP!
Now the cricket jumps maybe 1 foot away. Do this again rip off it's last legs and you yell JUMP! and the crickets doesn't move.

Theory: Cricket won't jump if it can't heard you.

That is a totally legit theory, now you are going to try and discredit it and say "Duh, you idiot it couldn't jump because it didn't have it's legs!", problem with that is that the crickets ears are on it's legs so you didn't prove him right or wrong. You just made yourself look more stubborn and fearful of changes.

[bonovoxpsu]

take it to the dark boards and ask them. they know. they will have your proof since you seem to need it.