Gold Sword vs. Wise Wizard's anelace

[Uroboros]

Originally posted by Patchinko
Neither Bune nor Charybdis is a HNM.

Meh, what does HNM even mean anymore. They're both harder than Roc/Simurgh/Lumberjack, which are pretty universally considered HNMs. Mysterytour lists Serket as an HNM, but Amkiri just as an NM. What? I'm still yet to have ever seen an actual consistent definition for HNM.

On topic I prefer the Goldsword, I never liked the WWA, at that level I used Flueret instead and it's fine for farming, but the +ACC doesn't matter on stuff that's plausible to farm, so when you can, switch to Gold.

[Patchinko]

AFAIK, HNM means you get a new title after you beat it. I'm not sure if there's any other defining difference.

Originally posted by Jubbermuffin
Wow Patch, for someone who "wouldn't be seen dead" at this board, you sure post a lot.

Who are you quoting? I've been posting here since I started FFXI.

[kazuri]

I'm positive some normal NMs give off titles when you kill them; Beak Bender from Skewer Sam, etc. Therefore, your explanation can't be right, Patch. :r
The way I learned it, HNMs are Notorious Monsters that take "about" a real day's time (24hrs Earth Time) to respawn.

Now to be on topic... I'm not a RDM or anything but I can say that WWA looks pimp on a Tarutaru and Gold Sword is kinda meh. Looks matter the most~!

[Patchinko]

Maybe it's a combination of the two then, because I know Old Two-Wings isn't a HNM even though he's a 24-hour spawn, but I don't think he gives a title either.

Then again, do people count normal Behemoths as HNM? They're about 24-hours and give a new title. I suppose they do qualify as HNM, technically, if I go by that definition.

I've never heard of Charybdis or Bune being called a HNM until now, but I don't know if they give special titles or not (didn't think they did).

If someone has a real answer, I'd be interested. I have a feeling it's kind of arbitrary. Like Uroboros said, it doesn't really matter.

As far as looks go, the WWA looks great on a Taru, but I like the R.G. Fleuret more because I can use it in PT more effectively and it's basically a RDM-only sword (DRG doesn't count!).

[kazuri]

No way... Old-Two Wings is a 24hr spawn?! Yeah, well... now that I check, all the NMs that spawn in Garliage Citadel are 21-24~ hr spawns (even Skewer Sam... ugh, I was wrong.) Now I'm curious too... answers please, smart people. D:

PS: Yeah, I would count Behemoth as a HNM. And I've heard of Bune as being a HNM first, nothing abot Charybdis though.

[Sadeira]

before this thread becomes an argument for what constitutes an hnm, i'd like to thank you guys for covering the rdm sword question. i'm level 52 and i can't decide between getting a royal guard's fleuret or the wize wizards anelace. i can get wwa with cp but if i want a fleuret, i'd have to pay 60k (the cost it's going for on my server).

i'm really attracted to the fleuret though because of the accuracy and it's high speed compared to that of the wwa. i'd really like to have both but i'd like to hear some opinions about both swords before i hit 55 ^^

i'm not really concerned about end game swords. it's levels between 55 and endgame that concern me the most. the joyeuse is pretty much a non-issue for me. if i ask nicely, my ls will go out and help me pop and kill charybdis. we already got 2 of them for our plds. as for enhancing sword... my ls got one the first time we fought bune. we were happy as happy can be! we figured hey we could get a lot of money for this for our ls. so we put on the AH and hope it sells. meanwhile one of my friends in one of the big jp hnm ls on titan suggested we should just give the sword to one of our rdms because it's a hard sell. TWO MONTHS after we got the sword, it's still being continuously listed on the AH >< . of course, several rdms in my ls have expressed interest in buying the sword once they have enough money... i'll probably never have a chance at touching it let alone getting it ; ;.

[Patchinko]

I asked a few people I know today and the general consensus as to what constitutes a HNM is that it's a NM above a certain level. Seems reasonable to me. (Too bad nobody could come to a consensus as to what level!^^)

WWA vs. R.G. Fleuret seems to be an asthetic choice for most. I picked Fleuret because it seems to me to be more effective in PT and more useful in soloing. It's higher priced than the WWA, so that's another factor to keep in mind.

I, for one, will not be dropping 6,000,000G on an Enhancing Sword.

[AtraposBLM]

Wise Wizard's Anelace I could buy with CP. Gold Sword I couldn't. That answers my question.

However, I rarely melee in parties. I find it's a waste to continually switch between a sword and a club if you do half as much casting as you should, other than to attempt to keep your sword capped. I personally don't really care about keeping my sword capped, and instead contribute to damage via nukes, and resting a lot more than I would if I was meleeing.

Anyways, about HNM - the general consensus is anything that requires 12 or more lv70+ characters to kill is considered an HNM. Serket/Simurgh/Roc/Lumberjack can be considered HNM if you want, but most HNM LS's don't consider them to be such. Charybdis is considered to be a HNM basically because if you take 12 lv70's to it, it can and will wipe you. Bune, on the other hand, can easily be taken by 12 lv70's. Bune I wouldn't rank as an HNM neccessarily, as it's fairly easy to kill. Same with Guivre, or most of the other "HNM" in regular vana'diel.

I'm not sure if I'd consider regular Behemoth an HNM. Probably...but I've never actually been in on a fight against him (never got the claim when I was present >_<).

Judging the HNM by whether it gives a title or not is silly. Roc gives a title...and I killed roc with 2 lv70 plds, a lv70 nin, a lv75 brd, a lv70 whm and me, a lv68 blm. One of the paladins kept DCing, but it was mainly me and the ninja just spamming damage. Took forever, but it worked. Try doing that on something like Charybdis and you'll regret it severely.

[Apple Pie]

Well, I tried to take some dmg. samples with Guardian Crawlers at Crawler's Nest because they are all at LV45 and I thought I could take accurate statistics. However, I was wrong. I was foolish enough to forget they had Cocoon... While I was casting Dispel, I sometimes hit them ;_;

What is worse, I wasn't able to find WWA at AH today. As a result, I only tested Gold Sword with my farming gears.

Among 203 swings (excluding Critical Hits),

Minimum Damage: 61 (I guess this was when I hit them with their Cocoon up)
Maximum Damage: 99
Average Damage: 83.3

Not bad against LV45 creatures. I'll test both (or even three of them) with Maze Lizards tomorrow and post a comparison.

[Patchinko]

Originally posted by AtraposBLM
Charybdis is considered to be a HNM basically because if you take 12 lv70's to it, it can and will wipe you.

I don't know that he's that hard, based mostly on what I read in this thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...4&pagenumber=1

It seems like if you have a great NIN tank and an understanding of how he attacks, less people can take him without much issue.

It's certainly easier to get people together to help you kill Charybdis for a guaranteed Joyeuse than it is to save up 6 million gil for a ridiculously overpriced Enhancing Sword.^^

[Uroboros]

Stray Mary (among others) gives a title, which ends that argument. And Charybdis is up there with Amkiri as being just as big of an asshole as just about anything else in the game, yet Mysterytour lists like Lumberjack/Roc/Simurgh as HNMs and those as just NMs. So that's why I said it doesn't really mean anything anymore. A revised definition should probably be "does it drop abjuration?"

[Apple Pie]

Finally, I borrowed W.W.A. from RDM75 in my LS... Great thanks to her.

Today, I went to the Nest again and got damage samples of three swords, Gold Sword, R.G.F., and W.W.A with my farming gears. I first tried to hunt Maze Lizards but a BST already there. I went to where there are Killer Mushrooms (LV45 - 47).

First of all, here's the test setup.

RDM66/DRK33 with Meat Mithkabob (I always eat this when I go out farming)

Gold Sword: Attack 381
R.G. Fleuret: Attack 381
W.W. Anelace: Attack 398

Note: Note: +14 Attack Bonus of W.W.A. is increased by Meat Mithkabob: Int (14 * 1.219) = +17

Then, here's the result.

Gold Sword

Out of 210 swings,
199 Hits (94.8%)
Min. Damage: 66, Max. Damage: 101, Ave. Damage: 84.1

R.G. Fleuret

Out of 218 swings,
206 Hits (94.5%)
Min. Damage: 58, Max Damage: 89, Ave. Damage: 73.6

W.W. Anelace

Out of 212 swings,
205 Hits (96.7%)
Min. Damage: 59, Max. Damage: 92, Ave. Damage: 74.8

Well, there is almost no difference between R.G.F. and W.W.A as their base damage is similar. However, Gold Sword shows great improvement over those. I'll tell the possible reason later.

So, +17 Attack Bonus of W.W.A doesn't do anything? Well, they actually do! The reason it didn't help W.W.A to do much better than R.G.F this time was because I already had enough attack against LV45-47 mobs.

Chat with PLDs for instance. Although they increase a lot of defence, it doesn't decrease the damage taken from certain amounts any more.

The same thing applies to attack. Although we increase a lot of attack with foods and gears, it has a cap at certain points.

Anyway, for me, there's no reason to use W.W.A. for farming. I may use it when I fight with a little stronger mobs that requre me of more attack boosts. Let's take a look at damage per minute.

Gold Sword (240): (60 * 60) / 240 = 15 swings / minute
15 * 84.1 = 1261 damage / minute

W.W. Anelace (226): (60 * 60) / 226 = 15 swings / minute
15 * 74.8 = 1122 damage / minute

R.G. Fleuret (215): (60 * 60) / 215 = 16 swings / minute
16 * 73.6 = : 1177 damage / minute

[Sadeira]

wow, thanks for your insight apple pie ^^

i guess i will get a gold sword once i'm at a level i can use it

[Prefect]

Damage calculation:
http://www.moonlight.gr.jp/~el/ffxi/ab_calc.html.en

Some of the formulas there:

[Damage] ï¼? [Base Damage] + [D] x [Damage Rate]

[Base Damage] = [Your STR] ï¼? [Mobs VIT]
[Maximum] = 24 + 3 x floor( [D] / 9 )
[Minimum] = Unknown

[D except H2H] = [weapon's text]
[H2H D] = 3 + floor([H2H skill] / 10) + [weapon's text]

[center] = ([your ATK] / [Mobs DEF]) x Unknown
[center Maximum] = 2.0
[center Minimum] = 0.0

[rate] = [center] + random(-0.5 .. +0.5)
[rate Maximum] = 2.0
[rate Minimum] = 0

/check Monster
monster has higher DEF -> your center is 0.0-0.5
monster has normaly DEF(no text) -> your center is 0.5-1.5
monster has lower DEF -> your center is 1.5-2.0

I assume everything Apple Pie farmed ended up being low defense. Thus, there were diminishing returns on increasing Attack more. Especially if [center] was already at 2.0, then additional Attack has no effect at all.

Also, being low defense mobs, you can assume a fair number of [rate] = 2.0, where each point of weapon damage gets doubled, increasing the Gold Sword's advantage.

There is also the chance of the cap for the base damage coming into play. In which case, the Gold Sword has an edge there since it crosses that multiple of 9 boundry at 36, so it has a potential of a 3 higher cap on STR.

Obviously, things change and fighting evens and higher when the STR cap no longer has a chance of making an effect. And if you are fighting high defense mobs, the additional Attack is more valuable pulling you out of the bottom capped range, and the advantage of additional weapon damage is minimized by the rate.

[Apple Pie]

Oh, thanks Prefect. I was writing the long long reply to explain why Gold Sword did such better this time but your explanation is perfect and I won't post that.

Yes, there's another factor called "Weapon Rank" that is Int(D/9). There's detailed explanation here in Japanese. I hope someone does English translation instead of me...
http://pamama.hp.infoseek.co.jp/FF11...-03-10-31.html

So, my final word is use whatever you want It's on a case by case basis, you know. RDM often use En- spells and that's why many of us still stick to that Fleuret of LV55.