Some specific RDM questions

[Jonnyram]

Quoting Apple Pie
There is no way the job without provoke can tank. Just go to Valkurm Dunes with three frontliners who don't have it. You can't pull the hate out of mages at all resulting in mages being killed first.

That's not strictly true. A NIN with a THF doing fuidama on him can keep the hate pretty well. Plus mages shouldn't really be going "all out" in Valkurm

I think RDM/NIN is good at high levels for HNMs and other non-levelling stuff. I really don't think it's an efficient combo for levelling past 41 though. When you have to cast refresh efficiently, you'll miss your Utsusemi, or vice-versa. You'll be compromising party efficiency at some point, for sure. And if there's no white mages available, your party cannot rely on you for hastes and cures.

Quoting Ruic
I know a level 50 RDM who didn't know paralyze and slow were white magic, and that MND actually affected those debuffs. I couldn't believe it.

Geez, get over yourself. I didn't know about the MND influence until I was level 57 and I've been frequenting FF boards for the last 2 years. And there are a lot of players who don't bother with boards and the like. I'm sure RDM/NIN works well for your LS parties, but it's not generally regarded as a party favourite.

[Drezial]

Please try and keep biting remarks out of this discussion please?

I appreciate the opinions, I seriously do, but this isn't a sub job discussion. I simply was curious about some things and decided to ask. Rdm/Nin is one of them. I REALLY appreciate the rdm/nin's telling me what they learned, and slightly less appreciate the people who haven't done it telling me what they think.

Anyways, like most rdm's, I'll probably have whm and blm lvl'd up, and probably nin so hmn if I so choose.

Here's my next question though, and that would be "Why are you as a RDM being forced to be the whm? Are there no whm?"

A RDM role as a caster shouldn't be the big MBer, or the big healer. Those roles are both better covered by blm and whm respectively. Just because you can doesn't mean it's your primary role. It's your back up role. I don't want to hear anymore arguements about "Well, you can't function as main healer with /nin" because in honesty, if I wanted to be the main healer, I'd have been a whm. That's just a retarded arguement for the sake of argueing. It's like telling a fighter he'll never be the primary damage dealer without /mnk or /thf or whatever. It's just not his job. If it was his job to be the main damage dealer, he'd have gone mnk or rng.

Wierdos.

-R

[Jonnyram]

Originally posted by Drezial
That's just a retarded arguement for the sake of argueing.

You said no biting remarks.

Anyway, like you say, if you want a healer, you pick a WHM. If you want a magic damage dealer, you pick a BLM. Melee damage from MNK, or whatever. The thing you're conveniently avoiding is that a RDM is not meant as a primary tank either. When utsusemi wears off, you're gonna get royally raped.

RDM doesn't excel at any specific task which is already covered by other jobs. What they do well is support the party. Enfeebles better than any other job, refresh and backup. There will be times you party with a WHM who is too busy casting cure to keep up with Haste. And a party never says no to an extra magic burst, even when there's a BLM in the party.

RDM/NIN can be the tank, but it's a waste of MP because you can't do much else at the same time. That's my two cents, and you can take it or leave it.

[Apple Pie]

That's not strictly true. A NIN with a THF doing fuidama on him can keep the hate pretty well.

Are you sure you're talking about RDM/NIN as a main tank?

Well, he/she might be able to do it but this only prevents attackers and casters from maximizing their fire power. As a result, it takes longer to kill each one and we get less XP iventually.

As a secondary (temporary) tank to be tricked, I agree that RDN/NIN works fine. Utsusemi I + Phalanx + Stoneskin absorbs five or six attacks until the main tank pull the hate back.

[Patchinko]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
As a secondary (temporary) tank to be tricked, I agree that RDN/NIN works fine. Utsusemi I + Phalanx + Stoneskin absorbs five or six attacks until the main tank pull the hate back.

Or "trick bitch," as we like to call it~

RDM can be trick bitch just as well without a /NIN sub, so it's not a major reason to be RDM/NIN.

[Ruic]

I think I may have been misunderstood at some point in regards to tanking. My job is NOT main tank. My job is RDM, then my job is trick bitch.

And yet again, my disclaimer: These are my experiences, and mine alone. Because this works for me, does not mean it works for you.

I am by no means a main tank. My party's main tank is either a PLD/WAR, a WAR/MNK or a WAR/NIN. My LS has all three. I function as a sub tank that allows a SATA and a relatively easy period of no damage.

I "tank" in the following circumstances.

Situation 1: Set up initial SATA.

Mages --- Frontline --- Ruic --- Puller --- Mob
I take hate with gravity, debuffs, etc, then I take a jog back to middle-lines, gravity makes this a breeze.
Mages --- Ruic --- Mob --- Frontline+Puller
SATA hits and hate moves to main tank before I lose my shadows usually, I usually only use utsusemi here.

Situation 2: Subsequent SATAs.

A minute later we SATA onto me. In some cases this won't give me hate like a normal SATA. In other cases it will give me a tremendous amount, such as SATAVB for 450 and Distortion for 200.

If I receive so much hate, I have utsusemi up, I cast stoneskin. Stoneskin is usually up before my shadows fall. If Utsusemi isn't ready again, I cast the blink spell. As one of the types of blink is blowing out, I throw the other up. But that is my limit. 1 stoneskin, 3 blinks. This is enough to last 40-50 seconds without being hit given the mob is slowed. I get hit maybe 1-3 times tops before the mob either dies, or the mob is SATA'd back onto the main tank. My evasion is capped, and my parry is at 90 base, with +20 from my swords, which also helps me in prolonging my defense. I have phalanx, but I don't put it to use in this situation. I am only being hit 2-3 times a minute if that, it isn't worth the mp.

How I keep up on MP, and what food I use: I use roast mushrooms, in some cases witch kabobs. I keep the refresh cycle moving, and very often I have a bard working with me. I cast my debuffs once a fight, the only debuffs that are ever usually shook off before a fight is over are gravity and paralyze, in that order. I've never had slow, dia, or blind wear off when a mob is at more than 5% hp. My debuff cycle costs me 109 mp I believe, and Refresh pays for itself. With a bard giving me ballad, and convert at my fingertips I find myself resting maybe 2-3 times an hour, which usually coincides nicely with someone having to use the bathroom or something. If I weren't switching weapons from wands-swords constantly I could probably be an active participant in a secondary skillchain. I do use starlight occassionally after building TP with wands for kicks, though the MP from it is hardly make or break.

RDM/NIN is better than a RDM/BLM at being a trick bitch, simply because you can move through a cycle of utsusemi: ichi - stoneskin - blink - utsusemi: ichi and absorb 10-11 attacks. Hell, a few days ago I attacked a desert manticore solo because I had a bit too much XP compared to friends, so I needed to dump some. The result was a five to six minute fight where I only did about 5% damage, but survived that monstrosity's attacks by cycling my defense. I finally died when he double-attacked and did a weapon skill that hit me for 523 damage. :D

And please stop the flames on the topic, it is making me feel guilty. :sweat:

It's making me think that writing a guide of some kind is probably a bad idea. I know that RDM/NIN isn't the best in every situation, and I wouldn't want to popularize the combo when not many players have the ingame resources, the patience, or the knowledge to make it work. Not trying to insult anyone in this thread or this forum, just saying it shouldn't be something stuck on a forum and presented as "valid" as RDM/BLM or RDM/WHM.

Though, if anyone wants to talk to me about RDM/NIN then send a PM, I'll gladly answer your specific inquiries.

(P.S.: Why the hell do Desert Manticores sound like songbirds? What the hell was SE thinking, giving them chirpy whistling sounds?)

--- Because I forgot to answer a question ---
Ninjutsu does not use mp. It uses ninjutsu powder, or ninja tools. They are items that are consumed every time you use an ability. They are usually very expensive.

[Drezial]

Arigato.

I know that mostly, RDM/BLM or RDM/WHM are going to be considered the best, but... RDM/NIN doesn't seem so much like garbage compared to like... RDM/MNK

And you hear about people rocking out RDM/BRD, even though they don't have the mana of /WHM or /BLM. They rock out the mana regen song and what not.

But still, who knows what the future holds. Any number of wierd updates might make anything happen that could be considered "good". I want to know why someone who isn't subbing nin would ever use anything other than a mana regen or boosting staff/club...

-R

PS: And where do I find out about gobby quests!

[Ruic]

http://mysterytour.web.infoseek.co.j.../us/index.html

Mysterytour is an incredible FFXI resource. Use the quest section to find out what you want. The quests for the Gobbie Bags are all started in Lower Jeuno.

[bonovoxpsu]

rdm/brd is a good combo around lvl 50. mage's ballad+ refresh = mmm.

IMHO, its better then rdm/nin. *warning that's an opinion not a flame* ^^

[ifandbut]

Thank you for your post Ruic. Even being that I am Elvaan and have lower mp then you I'll still have to give that a try when I get my nin to 30+ and have enough money to do so. I'm sure that I'll only be able to pt with friends who say it is ok to give this a try but if it works out.......

AtraposBLM, as a rdm who can mannage his mp I find that I can fight till chain 3 and get a WS off, at what time I usaly move to the back and rest with my Dark Staff on. That only usaly happens every other chain because convert is not yet ready.