Why is SE making our job so diffcult? Give us Refreshra please!!!

[moonyaco]

whats wrong with ppl that don't want refreshga?

Refresh: 41 rdm
MP Cost: 40
Cast Time: 5.00 seconds
Recast Time: 18.00 seconds
Duration: 2 minutes
Elemental Type: Light
Skill: Enhancing
Target: Single

To refresh 4 players in pt: Give and take 100 seconds, 20 secs left before first refresh drops.
Factor in fast cast and l33t timing skills:90 seconds, 30 secs before first refresh drops.
Factor in Haste for melees, prob 2-4, casting/recast/lasting time is around the same as refresh. They're on a diff timer, so just cast one after a refresh.
Factor in Enfeebling duties, para/gravi/Dia and blm debuffs in some cases.
Factor in Magic burst during skill chains.
Factor in Support healer duties when pt is taking too much dmg for whm to handle or just taking a load off whm's healing hate.

Does a red mage really have time to rest for mana or just in r/l? Not much, good thing we have convert as our only salvation.

Refreshga is definately a great addition to gameplay whatever the level. Imagine how a white mage would feel if he has no Protectra cos he can't afford it and has to cast protect on everyone in the party. Wait lets add in the 5 seconds casting time, while we're at it, lets add 18 seconds recast delay and it lasts for a miserable 2 mins. So the whm would be casting prot, sits to regen mana for 1 tick, stands cast prot, sits to regen mana for 1 tick and so on.

Just for those EQ players, refresh is like clarity(mana regen buff that lasts waaaaaaaaaaay longer than 2 mins), in EQ when expansions came out, there are improvements like Group clarity and even right clickable items with clarity on it(free mana regen buff) only for the specific buffer class/job. I quit eq 2 years ago for multiple reasons, so don't give me that "Since EQ is so much better, why not just go back and leave this game alone". I'm merely mentioning examples of good in game improvements in an MMOPRG that expansions can bring along to make gameplay more enjoyable and of course, less tedious.

So a few rdms bitch/moan about it in the forum.
Then some high lvl rdm comes in and say "stfu its how S-E intends this game to be, mages are meant to be boring, so live with it", (We've endured it for all these lvls, so you're not getting it any easier than us!!)
while a small faction of mages of around the same lvl as the whiners would add, "you know you can just quit this job if you don't like how it is, i myself am proud to be playing a technically challenging job that reflexes my incredible memorising and timing skills. (If these suckers quit playing mages, i can get invites faster)" - Bite me

I still can't believe some goon used some warped logic that "if we get refreshra, whms should get autocure and blms should get a sign saying time to cast MB " something along these lines. Don't turn to other mages for the sake of balance, we're the only ones without grp buff/teleport type spell/much stronger debuff spells comparible to blm only nukes like Flare/Freeze or a whm's incredible healing/raise abilities since enfeebling is A+ to us. Whms even outdmg us in melee from some point onwards. I could go on and on about how unfair things are. So pls, rdms getting a small upgrade is not gonna wreak heaven and earth for the other mages. Look, there is nothing to be proud of being able to time refresh/haste buffs on party members right. My grandpa or my 5 yr old nephew could do the same. This topic is asking us RDMs to support this idea cause it is something that S-E missed out on and should be implemented perhaps even before NA release. I would suggest hastega for rdms too, but right now, refreshra is more crucial.

ps. Yes, good news to some mages reading this, i've stopped playing rdm 6 months ago cos they just won't put in refreshra. The only pts i enjoyed being in are when there are only 2 mages(including me) with no mana melees(paladin/drk)(Yes i prefer warriors to paladins and can keep them alive no prob, paladins deal like 130% rdm melee dmg anyway) or a 2 Rdm as healers partay! (splitting every shit job above into 2 makes life soooo sweet, i wouldn't mind healing more and casting an extra simple and loooong lasting buff like protect)

[midnilux]

RDM have too many strength and weakness, for example why the fuck do RDMs heal almost identically to WHMs, wow they dont get Cure V, like anyone cares, healing is overpowered for a class thats not supposed to be a main healer, that would be fine and dandy for me, but the pay off is that our nukes BLOW ASS.

Yeah we can make everyone not run out of mp if we do precise refresh cycles, the trade off is that WE run out of mp regreshing every 20 seconds, thanks god for convert, but it should be a 5 minute, not a 10.

Which leads me to my point, I think Convert was added to make up for the lack of refresh-ga, they knew we'd be running out of mp trying to keep everyone elses up, so that ability makes sense specially since it comes 1 level before refresh. The -ga issue would be fixed with a 5 minute convert, my problem is not that im too lazy to refresh everyone, my problem is that i do it too much and run out of mp, so I need a 5 min convert!

And please dont compare us to bards, thats the job everyone wants in their PT but no one wants to be. Boring as helll.

It's not all that bad when you come to accept we're like the shamans of EQ, and WHMs are the Clerics, xept Clerics heals 100 times better than a shaman, while WHM hardly can outdo a RDM if only for a few status ailments like cursna where theyre actually needed.

[Deodorant]

And I can't believe there are people other than Yepe who lack the comprehension to understand what I'm saying.

If RDM ever get refreshga (assuming it has similar mp requirements to refresh), I'm not going to complain, obviously, but personally I feel it isn't necessary or required.

And my entire point about that 'comparison' (I'd think it's more like an analogy, but whatever) with whm/blm seems to have been missed. What I've said has nothing whatsoever to do with mage balance. The whm/blm thing was a random example of what they might say when asking for their lives to be made easier (which is what you're doing when asking for refreshga - asking for your life to be easier).

Even with having to refresh everybody individually, MP isn't usually much of an issue with liberal usage of convert. Even if you never convert, you can usually keep up constant refresh, enfeeble, and occasional cure and nuke. Making convert a 5 minute timer would make it overpowered, no question about it.

Also, a whm is a superior healer to rdm. Cure IV doesn't quite cut it when a mob does a double critical for 300damage each (not to mention V is more mp efficient and generates less hate than IV), and you would be crazy to go into HNM fights with no whms. But yeah, in many normal exp situations rdm's make the superior party member.

Nuking isn't as bad as you make it sound. I can MB for 700+ dmg. Granted, blm's can do like 1400, but 700 dmg isn't exactly 'suck ass.'

In closing, let me say that I wouldn't mind refreshga. Also, might as well give us protectra/shellra. Sword A+, or at least A- wouldn't be too bad either, and the IV-line of elemental spells, and at least B elemental skill. Oh, and Raise II would be nice, together with a 2-minute convert timer (and 10-minute chainspell duration). /nod.

(Yes, there is a 'hidden' point to that last paragraph, and if you can't catch it then you're a moron. That is all)

[yepe]

Originally posted by Deodorant
blah blah blah

Talking like moron really does not help :angel:. If you want to talk like a 13 year old that does not understand what your dad told you, I have no problem with it. I used to have respect for you but now... all you are is a selfish and arrogant ******* that thinks lvl75 seen it all and everyone should stfu.

As long as I got my message across and some ppl see my points, it's all that matters.

My job is done here. Let's hope SE wakes up and do some thinking because whatever they do to RDM is wrong from the beginning. Even they've admitted RDM is too hard to play. I sincerely hope future RDM all the best and may SE bless RDM with Refreshra

And to you Deodorant, I will not reply to you anymore "Mr lvl75 with weak-come-back" :angel:

[SlipA]

I hope they put in a refreshra too. I know quite a few ppl who stopped rdm when they found out they had to be refresh machines. Refreshra will probably make rdm's dime a dozen and then it will be easy to find them, woo! No more having to ask rdm/nin's and /anon rdms to pt. Hmm, maybe I can be picky and only choose rdm's with dark staff and all the torques 0.0

im jk, but although refreshra would be fantastic, dont take the blessings of the job for granted, in that rdm is still probably the strongest overall job in the game. SE doesnt owe the job anything, refresh itself is already pretty nice, wouldnt you say? Who would have thought ppl would complain about the most wanted spell in the game being too inconvenient Having said that, i dont level my rdm hardcore, i switch off with other jobs to keep things interesting^^.

[midnilux]

If they add it it should be worth 240 mp, and lets suppose out of pitty's sake they make it 200mp since usually theres 1 pt member or 2 that dont even have mp so a full 6x40 cast would be a waste. But then you would have to deal with situations where there's only 2 or 3 people to refresh, so you'd be wasting some 200mp instead of 3x40, the spell would balance itself out.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by yepe

My job is done here. Let's hope SE wakes up and do some thinking because whatever they do to RDM is wrong from the beginning.

Wee, Yepe is the authority on RDMs! She thinks refresh is too tedious, therefore it is S-EX's fault for fucking all RDMs over by neglecting to provide Refreshga! Probably they did it on purpose, too, just to make our lives hard!

In all seriousness, you're a fucking hypocrite. You posted an opinion, and expect everyone to say yes ma'am you the boss? And anybody who doesn't agree is a "selfish and arrogant ******* that thinks lvl75 seen it all and everyone should stfu?" Never anywhere did I tell you to do so; all I did was post my opinion on the matter. If you can't handle a little criticism from people with differing views, then don't bother posting. Case in point:

Originally posted by yepe

As long as I got my message across and some ppl see my points, it's all that matters.

Obviously the only opinions that matter to you are the ones that are in agreement. I'm sorry, but that is stupid. I don't claim to be any more 'right' than you are; but at least I value your (differing) opinion, which is more than what I can say about you.

Finally, weak come-back, huh. Perhaps you might be right. In my defense, it's extremely hard to argue intelligently with a person who: 1) Ignores parts of your arguments; 2) Grossly misinterprets the other parts; 3) Thinks that her opinion is fact; and 4) Doesn't give a fuck what anybody else thinks anyway.

[Uroboros]

Refresh needs to stay how it is, so people can tell who the bad RDMs are. I get complimented all the time for Refresh never falling longer than five seconds at a time on 3+ manapools, Haste never dropping on 2+ melees at all, and enfeebles/Dispelling being handled quickly and consistently. I wouldn't get those compliments if RDMs had a catch-all option for their primary function. Often these compliments are specific, like a paladin saying "Wow I never get Refresh like this" or a ninja saying "I'm never kept Hasted with no gaps."

Yeah it's a tedious job with a lot to do. Yeah sometimes it gets irritating. Take breaks from it or quit. If you want Refreshra play bard. RDM has gotten huge breaks and evolved to the point where every class that is not named bard resents their invitability and every class not named beastmaster resents their soloability. Lots of people would be happy to play the world's smallest violin for anyone saying RDM needs more.

SE saying RDM is "too hard to play" was a very loose translation from when they said the Maat battle for RDM is too hard, which is true. So they nerfed it. They did not mean the class as a whole.

[macross_sdf1]

Man I wish I had refreshga and slowga and hastega and gravityga. I agree it's tedious and quite boring to have to buff like this. Good thing I stopped xping months ago. I could care less about rdm group invite availability. Simply isn't fun to haste and refresh over and over and over, even though I do it very well. The difference between rdm and the others is we need to be always alert. Gotta watch the chat buffer constantly to see when stuff runs out. No time to afk, no time to slack off, no time to sit and med.

No big deal rdm gets cure4, so do paladins. I hardly cast cure4 anyways, causes too much aggro. Heck I hardly even cure, it's just there if I need it.

Rdm is only mage job without upgrades to low level spells. All we have unique to us is phallanx and gravity. Refresh, pfft. Bards can do it better. Isn't even much reason to have rdm on high lvl hnm hunts. Just a few that require grav, but you can get by that by using stuns. Debufs? seal+debuf usualy lands, and whm blm can do them. Without seal, even rdm with uber enfeeble has very hard time sticking debufs on the high lvl stuff. Pretty much all I do now is seal+slow or seal+grav then heal now and then, or maybe just spam debufs till one lands and runs out in 10 sec.

But try being rdm in dynamis when you got 6 people to refresh in your group.

Anyways, where are our high lvl spell upgrades. We don't get raise 2 or 3 or regen 2 or 3, or nuke4 or ancients like other jobs. We don't even get AE upgrades. If no refreshga, why not slow2 or para2, or blind2, or dia3 etc. Our job is to enfeeeble, why do we have to use low lvl spells.

[Karinya]

Originally posted by StarvingArtist
While I wouldn't mind Rdms in my PT with Refresh-ra or RefreshII (would like that more), if it were to be added it certainly won't come cheap. Whether it is from a high level BCNM or monster drop, the first few sold will definately go for more than 1-3 million and not every Rdm that can use it will be able to get it right away. Then you have Rdms with {Refresh-ra}O given favortism in PT invites - those that had the money or BCNM'd enough times to get drop. This has happened for RaiseII, RaiseIII, and Refresh when they first were released. - not making your job easier, just more expensive.

But it didn't happen for Dispel. Not ALL spells that are added are added as BCNM or HNM drops. Most of the elemental III series are 10k or under - because they drop fairly often from a substantial number of ordinary beastmen. If Refresh2 is a normal drop from high level RDM beastmen, coffer parties etc. will get plenty. Furthermore if it does have a price spike right after release, people will start farming RDM beastmen for Refresh2 scrolls and increasing the supply. The potential market is only 70+ RDM (probably, depending on what level they make the spell) and nobody needs more than one, so I don't think it will take long for prices to reach a reasonable level.

I got Refresh a couple months ago for 3k. Granted, that was still several months after it came out, but still, that's a pretty affordable price for a level 41 spell.

Anyway, even if Refreshra or (even more so) Refresh2 RDMs get preference in PT invites, I don't think RDMs with "only" Refresh 1 will have too much trouble - and if they do, it's only for a few months until the price stabilizes (assuming it doesn't have a crazy drop rate like Erase).

Having Refresh-ra wouldn't make PTs not make a Rdm a refresh-tank any less. It's not always possible to make sure everyone has Refresh on at the same time - someone is out of range, disconnects, or accidentally removes it you end up having to refresh again. Not to mention everyone doesn't always use MP at the same rate or have the same amount. Having RefreshII just means you can RefreshII on mages and Refresh on MP-using attackers - not making your job easier, just more refresh casting.

Well, if Refresh2 has a longer duration or shorter casting time, then it does reduce the amount of time you have to spend casting it. Nobody calls WHM a "Protect tank" even though they are expected to keep a level-appropriate Protect and Shell on everyone and recast it as soon as it runs out.

If you really despise being a refresh tank, then form your PT members around non MP-using members. Nin or War as tank, Thf, Mnk, Drg, or Sam as other attackers. Then, you'll just have yourself and 2 others to refresh unless you have a Brd. - makes your refresh-tanking easier, but you still have other stuff to do.

Over the years, Square has actually been pretty good to Rdms (though it took a long long time). Addition of Convert, Regen, Refresh, access to more magic, and a shorter Convert timer (from 15min I think?)

Most DRK that I've partied with don't expect full-time refresh and wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it. So practically if you are the only rdm you are looking at 2-4 full time refreshes (including yourself) and possibly an occasional refresh on the drk. If you have a lot of refreshes you probably have a whm and pld which means the whm will be hasting unless he is a moron (if he's not hasting and you already have a refreshed pld, don't bother refreshing the whm: what's he going to use it on, banish?). Don't be afraid to delegate some enfeebles too: you're giving them a ton of free MP, they can afford to spend some of it on other spells so that you can still have the MP to keep refreshing them.

One more thing: rdm nukes don't suck. I usually get 90-95% of the damage of taru blm of the same level casting the same spell. Often BLM will cast a bigger spell that does more damage - but also costs a lot more MP. (Sometimes they can only do this by casting a -ga spell and it isn't safe to do so.) In MP-efficiency terms, rdm and blm nukes are very close. If RDM didn't have so many other responsibilities, and could throw as many MP into nuking as a blm, we could pretty nearly close the gap in overall nuke damage by throwing more nukes before having to rest (and of course if it were an actual competition, we wouldn't refresh the BLM, giving us an overall MP advantage).

[kyle5547]

Originally posted by Karinya



I got Refresh a couple months ago for 3k. Granted, that was still several months after it came out, but still, that's a pretty affordable price for a level 41 spell.


[/B]

3k huh? I got mine for 30k when I was able to get the spell. I can't even imagine how much it cost when it first came out.

[kyle5547]

Hmmm..considering that its a new spell...and being that it would be beyond level 75, I would guess that it'll be hard to get and also very expensive when it sirst comes out due to novelty and the amount of RDM's. Im guessing that it will go for around 1-3 mil.

[Drynavere]

blah blah BLAH!... I agree with Ednoon...take your cheese and get lost whiners....

I play a RDM as a side job to have some fun when DRK gets boring, and I just recently hit 41 and have been having some fun with refresh. On average I can land all 5-6 of the debuffs that a RDM uses, before the mob is even 10% dead, unless the party started the fight with a renkei.

So after that debuffing scheme, I constantly am redebuffing and casting refresh right? So if we take out the casting refresh and toss in a refreshga spell.... it would cost so much mp, seeing as the original refresh is 40mp, that you would spend the next half of the battle sitting down to rest up your mp for the next fight, and then you'd get caught up in not replacing debuffs that are wearing off, and missing MB's cuz u'd be sitting down in the renkei so u can debuff the next mob on the menu....

Face it. If SE put in Refreshga, RDM would be even more boring than it is now... You'd end up sitting for half the fight, to only lose all your mp at the beginning of the next fight when you casted it again....etc...etc...etc...

It won't work, and it won't happen. Play a BLM if you wanna nuke more.

[yepe]

Originally posted by Drynavere

Face it. If SE put in Refreshga, RDM would be even more boring than it is now... You'd end up sitting for half the fight, to only lose all your mp at the beginning of the next fight when you casted it again....etc...etc...etc...

It won't work, and it won't happen. Play a BLM if you wanna nuke more.

OMG, this tops the most retarded post on this topic. Another one to put in my ignore list.

[DrSerpico]

Ignore list?

OMG, this tops the most retarded post on this topic. Another one to put in my ignore list.

Of course you should put him on your ignore list. He disagreed with you.

Keep your ignorance up and you'll get a personal lyric from Ill Mitch ^^.

Whms should get Paralyna-ga, Stona-ga, Cursna-ga, Raise-ga.
Rdms Should get GraviGa, RefreshGa, DispelGa...
Blms should get an atomic bomb spell that takes all mp, and does 23276*mp damage in a huge radius, and uses all remaining mp.

All these new implements should drop from Tiny Mandragoras in Sarutabaruta.

Seriously though, isn't it beginning to wear a bit thin calling all who disagree strongly with you morons?

I feel that a refresh-ga spell would make RDM's more overpowered, and you would HAVE to have one in your party. Rdm and NON-rdm camps would form, it'd be a great political war between rdm-lovers and rdm-haters.

Ok, so refresh is a bit hard to keep up with. Boo-hoo. I take pride in being able to juggle para-slow-blind-dia in between refresh, MBing and the occasional regen/cure. (occasional gravi and add sleeps as needed)

I've played whm, rdm and blm into the forties, and the one that takes most "awareness" (at least in my case, experience might vary if you're a horrible player.) is without a doubt the Red Mage.

If you find RDM a bit to tedious and stressing, maybe you should listen to the now ignore-listed poster, and pursue a less taxing career?