What's so bad about RDM/WHM??

[bonovoxpsu]

man, i'm struggling just to keep my main BLM sub up to par.... let alone whm for a second subjob... o_O

[edit] btw, if i may hijack a thread... i finally completed af3 last night (weeeeee!). we killed the damn NM like 6 times (yes that many rdm's were there) and had only one freak death. good stuff.

shame i'm still lvl 59

/em pets his Warlock's Chapeau...

[Lightseeker]

Absolutely nothing is wrong with /whm. I'll agree its great to have both /whm and /blm leveled up for sub, but the only time I've missed having /blm is when I'm soloing or doing quests. Then I find myself really wishing for warp. No party leader has ever asked me if I could sub blm. One of these days I'll go back and level blm... I just dread taking another job through dunes, even a mage job.

[DM337]

Originally posted by Tifa
RDM/WHM is far superior in exp parties, from Divine Seal alone.

Heres a typical Convert sequence from a RDM/BLM:
Convert
Cure IV - 88mp
(only about 50% hp cured)
Cure III - 46mp
Another Cure III or 4 - 46mp minimum
Total: 180 mp

More like Cure IV, then Drain the rest back from the monsters. Or just use Regen. While WHM sub may save about 90 MP on a Convert, BLM sub saves much more than that with Conserve MP and Aspir.

[Digital]

Originally posted by Tifa
RDM/WHM is far superior in exp parties, from Divine Seal alone.

Heres a typical Convert sequence from a RDM/BLM:
Convert
Cure IV - 88mp
(only about 50% hp cured)
Cure III - 46mp
Another Cure III or 4 - 46mp minimum
Total: 180 mp

Typical Convert from RDM/WHM:
Convert
Divine Seal
Cure IV - 88mp
HP is white, ready to go
Total: 88mp

As you can see, having Divine seal makes Converts MUCH more efficient. Not only does this save you close to 100mp, but it saves time if you have to convert during battle.

Before you think, realize that 100MP is nearly 1/5 of a RDM's mp during the 40's. During the 50's a non-taru rdm will have 550+ mp, so 100 is still a huge chunk.

Don't be selfish. Don't sub blm just for warp. There will always be a blm/whm or a whm/blm in your party to cast Escape, so don't think you need to have that in exp party.

Be smart. Sub WHM.

With /blm you get Conserve MP and Aspir. Sometimes you can't use Aspir, but let's be serious, crabs are more common in FFXI than any other exp mob, and lets not forget beetles. If you Aspir every time it refreshes, and even only get 10 mp return, thats 100 mp every 10 minutes. Let's not mention Convert MP kicking in every now and then. Plus the fact /blm will get about 20 or so more MP than /whm. And sure, the Blm or Whm/Blm sure can cast Escape, but RDM can cast Escape instantly with Chainspell. So, please think of all aspects of the argument before you jump in and start calling other people stupid and selfish.

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Tifa
RDM/WHM is far superior in exp parties, from Divine Seal alone.

Heres a typical Convert sequence from a RDM/BLM:
Convert
Cure IV - 88mp
(only about 50% hp cured)
Cure III - 46mp
Another Cure III or 4 - 46mp minimum
Total: 180 mp

Typical Convert from RDM/WHM:
Convert
Divine Seal
Cure IV - 88mp
HP is white, ready to go
Total: 88mp

As you can see, having Divine seal makes Converts MUCH more efficient. Not only does this save you close to 100mp, but it saves time if you have to convert during battle.

This analysis is flawed in several ways.

First of all, you shouldn't use cure4 for non-emergency healing unless it is capped, since it will be less MP efficient than capped cure3. Divine Seal may be an exception, because a bigger heal takes better advantage of it. But the RDM/BLM should be using cure3s. I usually use two cure3s, a regen, and a drain on the next mob, recasting as necessary.

Also, you don't have to cure yourself to full (or even to white) after a convert. If you do, you're not taking advantage of the excellent MP efficiency of Regen and Drain.

Oh wait - RDM/WHM don't even HAVE Drain. Or Aspir, either - which can easily give you 100+ MP in ten minutes, if you're fighting the right monsters. (Aspir, however, is 50+ for RDM/BLM. So it doesn't apply in the 40s - but the other reasons do.)

And another thing RDM/WHM don't have - Conserve MP. Let's say you have 400 max MP. In ten minutes you will regain about another 600 MP from Refresh (a little less if you don't always recast it right away). So you have about 1000 MP per ten minutes - more if you get a chance to sit.

Conserve MP, on average, reduces MP costs by 25%, according to tests posted elsewhere in this forum. This means you can cast over 1300 MP worth of spells with those 1000 MP (a dozen refreshes and whatever else). The savings far exceed what you would save by Divine Sealing one cure4. Essentially you spend a little more MP right after the convert, but spend significantly less MP (to cast the same spells) the other 9 and a half minutes. The idea of giving up some MP now to get more MP later should be pretty familiar to 41+ RDMs. :D

And another thing - Elemental Seal. Great for Sleep/Sleep2 on an unwanted second mob, it can also be used for other enfeebles, drain, aspir, even nukes. Speaking of nukes, /BLM gives you the -ga series too, which are sometimes better MBers than the regular II series nukes.

And finally, elemental enfeebles (Shock, Rasp, etc.). RDM/BLM has them, RDM/WHM doesn't. If your party has a BLM this isn't as important a consideration as the BLM will probably be casting them, but not all parties have a BLM.


Both subs have their benefits, but after level 40, /BLM offers the single largest benefit (Conserve MP) and IMO the better overall selection of benefits, unless your party needs you to status cure. Demands on a 41+ RDM's mana are large enough without also paying full MP for every spell you cast.

Although Apple Pie's point about bar spells is interesting - do you find the difference in enhancing magic between yourself and a WHM large enough that it makes a real difference who casts them? Or do you just have WHMs that don't cast those spells at all?

[Vinen]

The only monster ive seen a BLM be able to Aspir off that ive xped on since level 68 was the RDM Weapons in Ro'Maeve.

[yuukei]

So hey Vinen, are you saying that Aspir really isn't used all that often against exp mobs when you get to that point?

[Apple Pie]

To tell you the truth, I haven't checked the difference between WHM and RDM on bar- spells and I don't know how much the difference is. m(_ _)m

However, it is always I that cast barblizzara when we fight with Shiva for 10K money I don't know why but they want as much resist as possible.

Theoretically, there isn't a big difference between RDM and WHM. Well, let's do some math.

RDM 65
Enhancing Magic Skill: 214
From AF Leggings: 15
From Enhancing Torque (Cheap!): 7
Total: 236

WHM 65
Enhancing Magic Skill: 202
From Enhancing Torque:7
Total: 209

RDM's barblizzarra is able to increase 87 points while WHM's is able to increase 81 points - Only 7% difference. I may be able to do some research in Ballista with my freiends.

Another reason RDM/WHM casts these might be because we want WHMs to rest as long as possible and to concentrate on healing.

[Tifa]

To the two posters above who quoted me:

I didn't take into account Drain and Aspir. RDM's on my server must be pretty lame by comparison, since I've not seen a RDM with capped dark magic to make these worthwhile.

I agree, Drain and Aspir, with Dark magic capped, can make /blm a better sub. However, I have yet to see this in action.

While not everything can be Aspir'd, everything can be drained and Drain is by far the best dmg/mp ratio of any spell, again with capped dark magic skill.

Conserve MP, is so random...it's hard to say exactly how much mp this saves per 10 minutes. Can't really argue for or against that one.

As for the comment on having elemental enfeebles- doesn't RDM have enough spells to use MP on besides an extra 25 or 50 from Frost/Rasp? Those just seem a little unnecessary considering how many spells RDM already needs to cast. And, don't forget RDM elemental skill is lower than BLM, so these effects won't last as long and may need to be recasted.

Barspells are indeed interesting. I play a 66 WHM, and when my Barwatera is combined with Shell, crabs' Bubble Shower does only a few points of damage to the team. I don't see RDM's extra couple points in Enhancing making these worthwhile for EXP parties. I'd take RDM's barspells for an avatar, but for EXP whm's seem to get the job done all the same.

I'm impressed with these arguements for /blm. I am sick of dumbasses on my server who can't make these points for themselves, and are only subbing blm for Warp. If they could make a few points like this, I'd have had a lot more respect for a /blm.

[DrSerpico]

The easy answer

Rdm is a chore.

I fully support having situational subjob, one for certain times/mobs, another for other.

Basically, if you're fighting a mob with annoying aoe, sub whm.
Fighting a mob with annoying status-attacks? Sub whm.

Fighting anything else, go blm. The thing is, fighting skeletons, black cloud damages and blinds your entire melee, meaning you need either 3 individual cure III + 3 blindna to keep full efficiency.

Curaga you may say, but that leads to spike hate, which leads to wasted mp due to ppl healing the new temporary tank, the whm.

Even if the mob is apireable (which IS huge, so DAMN friggin huge it's not funny.), if there's only one whm/ or /whm in your party, you SHOULD sub whm. one statuscurer only? If he's sleepII'd? If he's knocked out, and you have to finish the fight without him and all melees are playing fan the mob (blinded)?

plus you should never waste divseal on convert, use 26mp for stoneskin before, then convert, then you cureIII yourself, that's it. slap regen on, and get back to curing/enfeebling/nuking. Divseal is fore emergency healing, or "stupid mob spammed 3 black cloud/cursed sphere/fireball/bubble shower, so every melee = orange"

So in the end, I support rdms having whm and blm levelled as sub. Square designed rdm to be a challenging job, not for the faint of heart. Don't halfass it ^^

If you really want to be hardcore, you'll be levelling /nin to 37 for Utsu: Ni as well.

Sum-up of my opinion:
Sub blm is better in "neutral mode", however, vs certain mobs, it's not the best option to use.

[bonovoxpsu]

tsk tsk, red mages, i'm ashamed. we're arguing over two of the BEST subjobs for rdm.

this is one sub debate where i honestly don't care - i'm just happy that people are taking a mage sub and not some stupid thing like /mnk.

either sub rocks. enjoy it. me personally? i like /blm. i'm an offensive little taru. :p

and if you choose /whm? awesome, you have divine seal and lots of status cures and whatnot. both rock!

[Deodorant]

Having both subs lvled, I must say that I always go to party with /whm, unless the party asks me to go as /blm.

[DM337]

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
this is one sub debate where i honestly don't care - i'm just happy that people are taking a mage sub and not some stupid thing like /mnk.

But MNK sub gets you the almighty BOOST! That's knida an inside joke between my friend and I, he took WHM to 30 using a Lv. 5 MNK sub just so he could randomly Boost between fights and confuse everyone. He didn't even melee.

[EtRNaL168]

*****
RDM/WHM is far superior in exp parties, from Divine Seal alone.

Heres a typical Convert sequence from a RDM/BLM:
Convert
Cure IV - 88mp
(only about 50% hp cured)
Cure III - 46mp
Another Cure III or 4 - 46mp minimum
Total: 180 mp

Typical Convert from RDM/WHM:
Convert
Divine Seal
Cure IV - 88mp
HP is white, ready to go
Total: 88mp

As you can see, having Divine seal makes Converts MUCH more efficient. Not only does this save you close to 100mp, but it saves time if you have to convert during battle.

Before you think, realize that 100MP is nearly 1/5 of a RDM's mp during the 40's. During the 50's a non-taru rdm will have 550+ mp, so 100 is still a huge chunk.

Don't be selfish. Don't sub blm just for warp. There will always be a blm/whm or a whm/blm in your party to cast Escape, so don't think you need to have that in exp party.

Be smart. Sub WHM.

****

^Flawed, flawed, flawed. Extremely bad analogy.

If you are a good Rdm, you will understand why it is flawed. As we all know, you do not need to cure yourself to full after each convert. All you need is a stoneskin and regen before you convert, and sometimes the whm throws a regen 2 or 3 on you. Just constantly throw a regen or 2 on yourself after each successive one wears off. In 10 minutes, your hp will be full due to resting and the occasional curaga that the whm casts on the pt.

Be smart. Don't listen to the poster that posted the that I quoted^^

/BLM Really, and I stress, REALLY, saves lives. Trust me, you cant go wrong with BLM.

[macross_sdf1]

Saying whm is better just cause you have to heal twice after convert is stupid. Usualy the blm or whm or brd grouped with you will top you off after your initial cure4. Conserve mp does make a big difference.

But anyways neither subjob is best. It all depends on what you fight and party makeup. Higher lvls I'd say whm better since you'll likely be fighting cocks or skeletons and those don't have mp to drain, and have sucky status effects. But then again you might fight weapons or pots in tulia, where blm would be better.