Rdm Enfeebles and Elvaan

[Alcueid]

Sorry for lack of response. Was busy the last few days due to finals here at school.

FYI I am a mithra redmage, not an elvaan redmage. The only reason I am arguing this point is because I think scheme is an idiotic arrogant taru. Not because I want to say that Elvaans are better at being a job that the tarus were designed to be good at.

If you have two players equally skilled playing white mage, summoner, or blackmage then that is true. But the redmage job is different from other mage jobs and tarutaru is not necessarily the best race at it.

>"Using highly sought after and rare hp->mp equipment, at high levels (read: lv73+), an elvaan red mage can have 'more' mp than a taru at the same level."

Actually it is "Using highly sought after and rare equipment, an elvaan red mage can have a higher mp+hp total than a taru redmage at certain levels."

If you are a redmage having a 1-1 hp:mp ratio is priority number 1, priority number 2 is increasing the mp+hp total while you keep this ratio.

If a taru were to wear mp boost equipment, then yes no other race can have as much mp as a taru. But with a redmage that is not necessarily the best thing to do since it would make converting extremely inefficient.

>So in 5 peices, not only have you NOT managed to get 1:1 convert ratio, NOT managed to get the same amount of MP as a similiar level taru, you also lose out on many *significant* advantages that the taru will have gained.

Thanks to equipment change macros, a lot of these "significant" advantages can be gained back.
i.e. switching to crimson mask to cast enfeebles and such switching to mp boost gear only when converting.

Let's use the stats you gave for level 60 redmages
I'm only going to deal with the equipment used immediately before converting to establish the 1-1 ratio because thinking out all possibilities would take too long.
Elvaan:: Base HP: 1,016 - Base MP: 377
Taru::::: Base HP: 700 --- Base MP: 620

Elvaan Gear
Serket Ring -50hp +50mp
Astral Ring -25hp +25mp
Forest Stone +40mp
Warlock Tights +13mp
Mgn Ledelsons +20mp
Enhance mantle +10mp +10hp
Gold hairpin+1 -12hp +33mp
Mana Earring+1 +10mp
Mana Earring+1 +10mp
Star Necklace -15hp +15mp
Magna Gauntlets +24mp
Warlock's Tabard +14mp
Astral Shield -30hp +30mp
Crimson Sword +10mp
-122hp +304mp
894hp 681mp Total: 1575

Taru Gear
Bomb Queen Ring +75hp
Serket Ring -50hp +50mp
Warlock Tights +13mp
Warlock Boots +11mp
Enhance mantle +10mp +10hp
Gold hairpin+1 -12hp +33mp
Mana Earring+1 +10mp
Cassie Earring -50hp +50mp
Star Necklace -15hp +15mp
Warlock's Gloves +12mp
Warlock's Tabard +14mp
Crimson Sword +10mp
+58hp +128mp
758hp 748mp 1506

Using the numbers you gave, and at level 60 where the zenith set is unavailable, the mp difference between an elvaan and a taru is only 60. In my experience, I don't think the taru redmage has as high of a base mp, so I believe the actual gap is smaller than what is given above. Note that at level 61 Vivian ring becomes available.

But I totally agree with you that this is an unrealistic scenario and in many cases a taru redmage is going to have more mp than an elvaan redmage.

As to the point you made about Elvaan being too proud to admit that tarus make better mages than they do.

I point you back to
"an Elvaan's innate limits will stop you from being able to take it as far as I can with my Taru"
"Is there any other race that can look at your Convert timer with 2 minutes left and tell your WHM "Heal your MP to full, my Convert's almost up and I'll handle healing"? Absolutely not"

These are both examples of Taru arrogance in this thread.
I know for a fact that both statements are false because I have an elvaan redmage friend with pretty godly equipment, and I don't believe for a second that Scheme is a better redmage than he is.
Applepie may be a better redmage than he is, but not an arrogant idiot like scheme.

As to the accusation that the only reason I think Tarus are not necessarily the best redmages is because I am a redmage. I am also a level 55 black mage, and I will not hesitate for a second to say that Tarus are far better than any other race at being a blackmage. There are countless times I envied taru blms even though I have pretty decent equipment. I think tarus are not necessarily the best red mages because of the above reason. I personally think that the best race for redmage is hume.

[MMan530]

Originally posted by Kilgraw
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MMan530
M&M cookies are better than Chocolate Chip cookies.
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I think that's the most logical thing said on this thread so far.

Well, I know it was a risky statement, BUT... I do have reasons. You see, M&Ms have chocolate AND a candy shell. Granted, they may not have as much chocolate as straight chocolate chips, but M&M baker with equal skill level to the choco chip baker will be able to compensate for that. You also always have the knowledge that if your M&M falls out of your cookie, you can pick it up without it melting. Choco chip cookies do have more chocolate, but there just isn't as much +candy shell ingredients out there. The C. chips will be weak against heat some of the time because of this. See?

The reason that I'm making fun of the topic is because none of you realize that what you want to play factors into the equation. If what an Elvaan is good at fits your playing style, then Elvaan is best for you. Hume/Mithra, Taru, they're the same. I would never ever ever never ever play a taru rdm. Its not that they aren't good, they just don't fit my playing style. As it stands, I am working on getting rid of my MP fast enough to convert every 10 minutes. Why do I want more? How, in any fashion, would that help me? I have +28 INT currently and I haven't even really tried to raise it. Int, with some rather common gear, seems to be a pathetically easy stat to raise. So... I have plenty of Int, plenty of MP, enough MND, and I'm not an instant (keyword being instant) appetizer for big HNMs like Cassie. What advantage would taru have for me? None! But, bear with me here, we probably play red mage with a bit of a different twist. Maybe you should be Elvaan or Taru, maybe not. There's no black and white "best" for the class that can do almost anything in the game at an average level.

The only situation that these comparisons could possibly have any bearing is given the same player between different races, assuming each race has optimal gear, in which case we'd only receive an answer sensitive to that single player.

[Editted: Stupid typos...]

[Hopkins]

Well said.

[Faust]

/clap XD

But...

What about the cookie surrounding said M&M or c. chip? With lesser quality ingredients used in the M&M cookie, or higher quality ingredients used in the c. chip cookie, would that not help compensate for the negatives to utilizing a c. chip cookie?

mmmm... coffee....

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by MMan530

The reason that I'm making fun of the topic is because none of you realize that what you want to play factors into the equation. If what an Elvaan is good at fits your playing style, then Elvaan is best for you. Hume/Mithra, Taru, they're the same. I would never ever ever never ever play a taru rdm. Its not that they aren't good, they just don't fit my playing style. As it stands, I am working on getting rid of my MP fast enough to convert every 10 minutes. Why do I want more? How, in any fashion, would that help me? I have +28 INT currently and I haven't even really tried to raise it. Int, with some rather common gear, seems to be a pathetically easy stat to raise. So... I have plenty of Int, plenty of MP, enough MND, and I'm not an instant (keyword being instant) appetizer for big HNMs like Cassie. What advantage would taru have for me? None! But, bear with me here, we probably play red mage with a bit of a different twist. Maybe you should be Elvaan or Taru, maybe not. There's no black and white "best" for the class that can do almost anything in the game at an average level.

[Editted: Stupid typos...]

see, your post was great until you claimed that you are working to get rid of your mp.... now, please explain that. i'm a taru and i work to conserve mp. this leads me to believe you're not casting enough. to each his own i guess, maybe your pt's have lest mp requirements.

also, could you post what equipment you have that gives you +28 int? and what lvl you are? i've dumped a boatload of gil into my taru rdm/blm to get +25 mnd WITH a rose wand +1 to boot. my big items are...

AF legs = +3 mnd (0 gil)
2 x aquamarine rings = +6 mnd (140k)
Promise Badge = +5 mnd (100k)
red cape +1 = +3 mnd (95k)
royal knights belt = +2 mnd (50k)
rose wand +1 = +6 mnd (6kgil ? i forget...)

total mnd = +25.
total gil = 385k gil + cost of rose wand +1

mman530, could you please tell me how you got +28int? with common gear? unless you're less then lvl 50 and using RSE (which AINT common), i'm not sure how you got +28 int.

[Uroboros]

Swap in Devotee's Mitts for MND-based spells. That's the missing MND.

[bonovoxpsu]

i'm just asking about his +int. +28int on so called "common" items just really suprises me.

[MMan530]

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu

mman530, could you please tell me how you got +28int? with common gear? unless you're less then lvl 50 and using RSE (which AINT common), i'm not sure how you got +28 int.

Sure, no problem. Off the top of my head, I use two Eremite's Rings, an Ebony Wand, Red Cape, Morion Tathlum, Hume Female RSE Legs and Feet, Red Mage AF Tabard/Hat, Holy Phial, Royal Knight's Belt, Enhancing Earring and some other +MP earring. The only huge item that I have is Hume RSE2 hands, but that only accounts for +4 Int. Other than that, I have an Astral ring, Electrum ring, and an Astral Shield (offers no Int boost).

Summarily:
Eremite's Ring: +2
Eremite's Ring: +2
Red Cape: +2
Morion Tathlum: +1
Ebony Wand: +6
RDM AF Hat: +3
Hume RSE Boots: +3
Apple Pie: +3
Royal Knights Belt (CP purchased Item): +2
(Hume RSE2): +4

That gives us a total of +28 -4 (Take off the Hume RSE2) for a total of +24. I'm using no +1 gear, not even Pies +1. Eremite's Ring, Red Cape, Ebony Wand are all excessively cheap. RDM AF Hat, and Hume RSE Boots are both quest items. RKN Belt was CP, so sort of free. Morion Tathlum is something you can use from level 25 on, and is easy to get if you have some extra time. Subtract an additional +3 from my RSE boots and you still have +21 WITHOUT a glove space or a foot space. In all honesty, I'm rather embarressed that I only have Eremite's Rings and a Red Cape. From an Int standpoint: I could certainly upgrade some items. MP, on the other hand, I have plenty of... which brings me to this:

see, your post was great until you claimed that you are working to get rid of your mp.... now, please explain that. i'm a taru and i work to conserve mp. this leads me to believe you're not casting enough. to each his own i guess, maybe your pt's have lest mp requirements.

In my above post, I mentioned that I have plenty of MP. This means that I have enough MP to cast effeciently with respect to my Convert timer. I could get rid of MP wastefully, but with an efficient mindsetting, I can easily go more than 10 minutes without converting. Not converting every 10 minutes relates to MP lost. I didn't buy my Astral Ring and I didn't buy my Astral Shield. I did, however, buy my Electrum Ring (gasp) and my Hume RSE2 gloves. With the eq that I have, I have over 700 MP at level 62.

I play a level 62 RDM/BLM.

Out of sheer curiosity, why did you compare my INT+ to your MND+? Your intentions seem a bit ill-presented, unless you're using an "apples to oranges" comparison method.

[JayblahX]

Agreed on all points (particularly about the elvaan blm *cough*kirara*cough*). They just refuse to admit taru's non-Elvaans are better at anything. I don't understand it

Corrected it for you.

[bonovoxpsu]

mman, i hope i didn't offend. i was kind of frustrated, that's all, at how easily you said you had +28 int.

on top of that, i thought you were an elvaan >_< :spin:


so it makes more sense now. sorry if i sounded aggressive. but 700 mp sounds about right.

my comparison was because taru's have crap mnd stats. that's my weakness and i spend serious gil to jack it up - +25 without food.

and about MP, i am a nuke happy taru. with my moldavite earring (and damnit, i WILL get a wizard's earring once i farm the gil) and the knowledge of a mob's weakness, i can nuke pretty effectively.

that's all

[Discordian]

Best use of rdm nukes is to wait for that magic burst to help push through mob resistance. Our lower elemental skill gets in the way easily.

[MMan530]

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
mman, i hope i didn't offend. i was kind of frustrated, that's all, at how easily you said you had +28 int.

No offense taken. I was more than happy to explain my statistics...... although I have been trying to keep my Eremite's Rings hidden from the public eye. I promise I'll upgrade them (someday, lol)! I almost bought new rings but then I noticed I had enough for Marine gloves. Can you blame me?

[bonovoxpsu]

i don't know. i tend to disagree. my nukes are fairly competent. as long as i pay attention to the day and weakness, i'm pretty proud of them.

granted, i'm fully aware that i'm never going to out shoot a blm. and i don't nuke a lot. but enough. maybe 2-3 a fight. its just fun

[edit] i just noticed you guys are both on midgardsormr AND you're both in the same LS. wow

[Apple Pie]

While Elvaan RDM eats Rolanberry Pies for INT and MP, Taru RDM eats Witchkabobs for MND.

What's wrong?

We can make up our disadvantages with foods and gears. When we cast, for example, paralyze and slow, we all put our MND+ gears on and Elvann RDM has some advantages but when we MB, Taru RDM has some advantages --- Not a huge difference though.

Differenct races, different ways. That's it.

However, it is true that I feel offended and try to disprove that when I see someone say something like, "Taru sucks in soloing" and "Taru is weakest against Ma'at."

Well, the real problem of Taru is I'm more often chased by Bastokans and Windurstians at Ballista than Elvaan RDM is.

[Vinen]

Ballista killing that Taru WHM from another Nation in Full Zenith/Dalmatica with 2 nukes o_0.