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  • #46
    The difference in paralyze landing at low levels (<lv50) might very well be pronounced. I doubt that it would very much matter, however, as a taru can do other things with his mp. As you said, paralyze cost is nearly nothing...so recasting it wastes pretty much nothing. Red mage fast cast makes recasting it not a problem.

    Plus, your example giving you an 8 mp bonus over a taru is laughable. First of all, that will let you cast 1 cure. Whoopdeedoo. Second of all, your math assumes to much. First, it assumes that you cure the paladin. Second, it assumes that when the mob gets paralyzed, nobody was doing anything else to it - namely, the paladin hadn't flashed it, the whm hadn't flashed it, the blm or drk hadn't stunned it, or the paladin's shield wouldn't block, or the paladin wouldn't have parried, or any of the other various ways an attack could miss normally. Just assuming a random thing like 3 paralyzes = 3*90 damage saved is fairly stupid. Yes, your paralyze is better. Guess what? Paralyze casts quickly, and costs almost nothing. When you have less than 400 mp, maybe 6 mp means something to you. It means almost nothing to a taru. It shouldn't mean anything to anyone...

    In addition, a taru rdm can land the elemental enfeeble Shock easier than you can. This reduces the mob's mnd, thereby artificially increasing the ability of the rdm to land all enfeebles. With shock...you should never get a resist except flukes. You could make the arguement that the blm in your party is more effective at landing shock, and you'd be right, but then you just ruined your arguement about you being better at landing paralyze. Yes, your paralyze might land once or twice more per fight, but with shock, it's not going to last a significant amount longer, nor is it going to get resisted any less.

    Also, a taru can easily out damage you with sheer nuking ability. If he lands a few nukes (which he can do due to his higher max mp), he saves the blm MP that he doesn't have to nuke with, he kills the mob quicker so the paladin takes less damage, and he makes the next pull occur quicker.

    Another flaw in your argument is the idea that somehow a rdm, blm, and whm all resting at the same time will gain MP back at the same rate. First of all, rdm's tend to have to rest less. A whm or a blm can sit towards the end of the battle, while a rdm might have to stand to redo the refresh cycle. I've even seen whm's that toss a regen III and a haste to the tank, then rest until the paladin needs a Cure V, stand, cast, then rest again. Second of all, as a blm, I can tell you right now that for chain 0, 1, 2, and 3, I have max, or near max every time unless I have to sleep an add. I do this by abusing free mp given by playing with my max MP by switching to my AF body/hat (from Black Cloak) and switching to electrum rings from my +int rings. This lets me get 2 enfeebles and a stun for free, every round, in addition to about half the cost of my blizzard II. Doing that, and nuking in moderation for the first 4 mobs, I leave myself with 950 mp to burn on 2 mobs - it makes getting chain 4 and chain 5 much, much easier. Therefore, you can't say that I'm going to be at the same MP level as the rdm...because I won't be. Third of all, whm, rdm and blm's do NOT in fact regain MP at the same rate. WHM's and BLM's get more Clear Mind traits sooner than a rdm does...so just by default, my +mp recovery is higher than yours. In addition, my JSE adds an additional 1 mp/tick, which equates to ~7 mp extra on the first tick, and 4 mp on each subsequent tick. Most WHM's also sub smn, so that's the same. Unless you plan on buying a vermillion cloak, that's yet another edge whm's and blm's have on resting faster than a rdm.

    You say Max MP doesn't matter. I'd agree, somewhat, but you forget that as a rdm, you're at your max mp more often than any other mage. Convert, remember? So for the first and fourth mobs, usually, you're at full mp. And as has already been said, yes, after a while, both a taru rdm and an elvaan rdm would be at the same mp, and therefore be considered equals...but A) when that happens, convert should be up, so a taru regains their MP advantage, and B) that means a taru went through that much more MP. If he used the MP smartly (and a good player would), then he has just prooved that a taru rdm is more effective and efficient than a non-taru.

    Maybe at lower levels its less obvious, but at higher levels, every mage tells the puller not to look at their MP to pull unless something weird happens that makes everyone use all their mp (like getting 2 adds when trying to pull the chain 3 or 4 mob). It's up to each mage to budget out their mp so that they can have just enough for that 6th monster to kill it fast enough to make chain 5. What it boils down to is, a taru simply has more to budget. That means more nukes, and more cures. Plus, if you're partied with a whm, you basically won't have to cure at all at high levels. Most whm's and pld's complain about over curing...so adding your own cures into the mix just makes things worse. So...nuke away...and taru's do that much better than you do.

    About the straight-line dependency of mnd and paralyze...I'd be curious to see if this was the same for every single point of mnd added. I know for a fact that this isn't the case for INT and max damage (at low levels, 1 point of int correlates to 5-10 damage, while at my level, 1 point of int correlates to about 1-3 points of max damage). Also, I'd be curious to see exactly how accurate the breakdown between +enfeebling magic skill and +mnd worked. I find it curious that paralyze would break the mold, as with every single other spell/ability/etc. in the game, adding directly to the skill involved is much more effective than adding to the stat it is dependant upon.
    For The Horde!!
    Current Gil total spent on gear:
    3,235,000
    Current Gil Value of gear:
    1,151,000
    Laughing when new players complain about prices:
    Priceless

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    • #47
      Originally posted by l)@RK-l)EVIL
      well
      the fact is rdm elv > rdm any other race
      (tarus have shity MND and high INT) elv have the highest MND from all other races and shity INT)

      i love how dispel got resist sometimes vs carbs we will do 0 damage till they use dispel again ok who care if you have alot of mp when your spells get resist your job is suppert you need to think alot about how MND is useful

      rdm need MND more than MP cuz if your spells get resist and there effect dont last long your useless

      ask yourself why rdm AF quest you see elv not taru

      from talking to random npc in the game
      best ninga is mirtha in vana'diel (i think she is dead or something cant remember)
      best darkknight is galka in vana'diel
      best rng is mirtha in vana'diel
      best pld is elv in vana'diel
      best sam is elv in vana'diel

      dont know about others :p
      what npc say is what sqaureenix say they know everything about there own game
      I won't even dignify this mess of crap with a response.
      For The Horde!!
      Current Gil total spent on gear:
      3,235,000
      Current Gil Value of gear:
      1,151,000
      Laughing when new players complain about prices:
      Priceless

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      • #48
        Originally posted by AtraposBLM


        I won't even dignify this mess of crap with a response.
        DOH! You just did. Then again I wouldn't either.
        Relic Stage 5: Excalibur Completed.
        RDM75 / PLD73

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        • #49
          Originally posted by AtraposBLM


          I won't even dignify this mess of crap with a response.
          i was joking realy :p i have not even read the posts lol
          they say taru rdm better another one come and say elv better :p so there is nothing useful in the topic realy

          everyone know that taru is the best mages in the game if i see taru rdm seeking or any other race i invite taru mage without even thinking

          why i invite taru rdm?
          they have just too much mp than others and they MB realy good who dont love extra MB from the rdm ?? you dont need to tell me how elv rdm MB is not very strong cuz i know that
          just take it easy elv mage will never say that taru mage is better
          you know elv so proud and blah

          from my all my pts i can say one true thing that
          taru with good equipment > elv with good equipment its sad for elv but its true and i think all elv know that

          Main : Sephiro
          Mules : Sephira Eviljin Sephon
          COP missions = Complated

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          • #50
            edit :

            if you need to know what elvaans think about others races dont even waste your time just see this picture
            elv will never say your better than him :p
            Attached Files

            Main : Sephiro
            Mules : Sephira Eviljin Sephon
            COP missions = Complated

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            • #51
              Oh yeah!

              Well... ummm...

              We're taller... :sweat:

              I don't care if someon's a taru or a galkan rdm... As long as the person can do the job they're supposed to, and do it well, then I don't care.

              It's been said a billion times, it matters truly on the person playing the game. I've seen terrible taru mages, and quite good galkan mages.

              Basically, regardless of what you do, if you're good at doing it, GREAT! If you suck... read the boards. :spin:

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Hopkins

                If you carry on the argument without taking a few minuites to read it then your not really being objective.
                Which is why I didn't carry on the argument :spin: In any case this is TARU vs ELVAAN, and being that I have no particular interest in vehemently defending either, I'll let you guys do the arguing instead

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                • #53
                  Both views on either side are so flawed that I stopped caring.

                  Im a Taru RDM/WHM 75/37...

                  CoP/Zilart/San/Win Finished, Bastok 1-1

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                  • #54
                    I'll admit that sometimes I don't MB because my MP doesn't allow me and my convert is not ready.
                    I'm not a pround elvaan. I know where I stand with my MP with a Tarutaru, Hume, and Mithra. Hell this level 49 WHM Mithra has more MP them me! So?! Am I still that bad because I have ... what?.....200 or 300 less MP then you guys do?! I do my job, I keep the chain to 5 if the meeles are doing their part, I keep the PT refresh, I keep monsters dispelled and enfeebled, hell I'll even do some Hasting if the WHM forgets a certain guy, I'll MB as often as I can! Sorry if I don't have the extra MP to spare to do some regular nuking.

                    I heard some of my friends in the game said that some of the most important enfeebles by the rdm are determine by mind, so does that make elvaan a better rdm b/c of the high mind?
                    Yes, your MND will help some. Apple Pie has shown that with some of his experiments. Equipment can help you make up your weaknesses, but not make you stronger then a race that already has an advantage in your weakness. Can we let the thread end here now?

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                    • #55
                      DrMrLordX:

                      Your logic is so fundamentally flawed it is hilarious. Are you honestly saying that our 6,000 MP advantage is negated by your 16% more efficiency with a 6 MP spell? Please, learn how to think. Something to chew on:

                      I don't have any +MP save my AF and anything given by +MND/INT items, and I still have 6,000 MP more than you to toy around while having +30 MND. On top of the Warlock's Tabard (RDM AF body) and the Enfeebling Torque, where's your 16% Paralyze efficiency now?

                      I NEVER get resisted on Paralyzes, and I rarely have to recast it, and even if I do, oh wow, it's 6 MP. Yes, I'm sure over 4 hours I'll have to recast Paralyze 1,000 more times than you.

                      Let's look at some reality here buddy:

                      6,000 more MP.
                      At level 61, my highest nuke is Thunder II.
                      Thunder II costs 86 MP.
                      6,000 divided by 86 is 69, meaning I can cast Thunder II 69 times on "free" MP that you will never have.
                      Thunder II does roughly 350 damage at my level against ITs.
                      350 multiplied by 69 is 24,150 damage.

                      6,000 more MP.
                      Highest cure spell RDMs get is Cure IV.
                      Cure IV costs 96 MP.
                      6,000 divided by 96 is 62, meaning I can cast Cure IV 62 times on "free" MP that you will never have.
                      Cure IV heals 360 MP.
                      360 multiplied by 62 is 22,320 HP.

                      I can deal deal 24,150 more damage not considering ANY Magic Bursts at all (which I generally do 2+ a fight because I dislike partying without SAMs who can fully exploit my MP), and I can cure 22,320 more HP than you will ever be able to.

                      If you can honestly tell me that despite my ability to deal over 24,150 more damage and cure 22,320 more HP per party that Elvaan is better than a Taru RDM at minimizing downtime and saving as much MP for everyone else as me, then you my friend are a moron.

                      Read it, just take in those numbers. If you can't admit that you are NOT what a Taru RDM can be, then you are just joking yourself and making me lose even more faith in humanity.

                      Good day to you sir.

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                      • #56
                        M&M cookies are better than Chocolate Chip cookies.


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by MMan530
                          M&M cookies are better than Chocolate Chip cookies.
                          I think that's the most logical thing said on this thread so far.

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                          • #58
                            M&M Cookies are the shiznits. Now I want some... lol



                            Does the extra MND from being Elvaan make up for the extra mp each convert? Thats a personal oppinion. Just remember a Taru can sub whm and get a large portion of the mnd back, same as a Elvaan can sub blm and get more int. If you say that you don't want to sub whm because blm gets better spells (or visa versa); then I guess mnd isn't important to you, so your whole argument is flawed.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Zeyno
                              M&M Cookies are the shiznits. Now I want some... lol



                              Does the extra MND from being Elvaan make up for the extra mp each convert? Thats a personal oppinion. Just remember a Taru can sub whm and get a large portion of the mnd back, same as a Elvaan can sub blm and get more int. If you say that you don't want to sub whm because blm gets better spells (or visa versa); then I guess mnd isn't important to you, so your whole argument is flawed.
                              Why is it flawed? You can just wear +MND gear

                              By the way someone posted a pic of an Elvaan in the tavern with harsh words towards Bastokans and Windurstians... that is nothing... wait till you talk to Halver for Mission 6. If you're not Elvaan, he rips you apart, except he attacks your race, AND your country... how can he insult a taru?
                              FFXIV: ARR - Leviathan Server - 50 Bard, 47 Dragoon, 50 All crafts, 48 Botany, 48 Miner
                              FFXI: Shiva Server

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Gman


                                Why is it flawed? You can just wear +MND gear

                                By the way someone posted a pic of an Elvaan in the tavern with harsh words towards Bastokans and Windurstians... that is nothing... wait till you talk to Halver for Mission 6. If you're not Elvaan, he rips you apart, except he attacks your race, AND your country... how can he insult a taru?
                                I have a friend who changed alliances from San d'Oria to Bastok on the sole reason that Halver was a jerk. He was Elvaan, too.

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