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**Silverquick** · 03-29-2004, 07:49 AM

The red mage is indeed a spellcaster.

Though generally newbies take it under the assumption it is a melee hybrid... its actually a caster hybrid.

The Strengths of the class however lie in its enfeebling abillity and then later its refreshing abillity.

When judging by Enfeebling abillity, no race has the advantage, Elvaan have a large edge in White Magic enfeebles, Taru have a large edge in Black Magic Enfeebles, Hume comes in second on both of them and is neither weakest nor strongest in either.

When Judging by Refreshing abillity, only concerns are Magic pool with regard to handing out 3-5 refreshes regularly and your enfeebles. All races can do this assuming mage sub, though Elvaan will need RSE to keep up.

Of which the relative power of the remaining abillities with regards to their relative power/usefulness through the levels.

levels 1-13

1. Melee
2. Enfeebling
3. Healing
4. Nuking (Waste of MP)

Levels 14-25

1. Healing & Enfeebling (both equal at this stage)
2. Melee (pretty close to #1 still, but lower priority)
3. Nuking (they kinda suck still, but grow a little)

Levels 25-40

1. Enfeebling/Dispeling
2. Healing (same relative power as nuking, but higher priority)
3. Nuking (starts to seriously power up)
4. Melee (starts to power down)

Levels 41-52

1. Refreshing
2. Enfeebling/Dispeling
3. Healing (same relative power to nuking but higher priority, not as important anymore though)
4. Nuking (Can to a lot of dmg much more than melee, but about same relative worth due to MP costs)
5. Melee (not enough time to swing, and requires large amounts of melee gear at the cost of caster gear to hit)

**Silverquick** · 03-29-2004, 07:52 AM

Here's something you can probably look forward to...

Things that remain constant:
Enfeebling mob skills is the best out of all other classes in the game. It is the strong point of the class until 41st when the equally powered Refresh/Convert literally defines the class and solidifies the role in a group.

1-25: Can melee as well as any other one handed sword class. Can also take damage as well as a warrior. Nukes are weak at this level and don't do much compared to the sword. Heals are the equal to a Whm.

NOTE: However Parties in these levels do not need any extra melee due to the lower levels being choked with them generally, they usually pull Red Mages in to be either primary or secondary healers. Hence Meleeing Red Mages usually get a bad name here if they ignore the needs of the party first or what they are generally invited for. Can fill in Directly for a Whm and has most of the heals with the exception of curega unless they sub Whm.

25-40: Nukes begin to power up at these levels and can at least come close to Blm nuking (still lesser) but there is a general drop off in melee power in comparison to other True melee classes (this will continue to grow through the levels). Hit rate at these levels begin to drop off without adding melee equipment to keep up.

NOTE: Parties at these levels still seek Red Mages generally as Back up healers due to the relative shortage of healers in the game. However once past 30th most of the melee classes in the game start over again on Advanced classes so there is generally not as much need for healing and there are plenty of available Whms. These are generally the levels most Rdm/Melee combinations die out. Identity crisis is usual about these levels, however, the Addition of Dispel at these levels however gives you a purpose in the group as a Debuffer, but due to Nukes powering up, now you can fill in for the Blm.

41-55: (The limits of my experience) Refresh/Convert levels and seemingly limitless mana for the Red Mage. However also the job becomes busier. The Class comes into its own now and finds its own purpose... rather than being a half azzed lower powered everything. Refresh means you are now casting spells a good 80% of the time refreshing 3-5 party members and your normal sctring of Enfeebles plus Dispelling mobs a lot. Little time for anything else and it continues to take away from your time for everything else especially post 48th with the addition of Haste. Melee damage tapers off to become the lowest damage in the party of those meleeing... no chance in hell of tanking efficiently anymore. Nukes more powerful than melee, however BLM Nukes far outstrip you as they gain Ancient Magic at level 50 no chance in hell of filling in for them anymore.

NOTE: Groups at these levels invite you for two things. Refresh and Dispel, outside that they could care less. At this point they are looking for a support caster when they invite you, everything else is irrelevent to them.

**Vaiyo** · 03-29-2004, 07:57 AM

What a list!

1. Do RDMs ever put out respectable damage at higher levels?

--->1a. Do RDMs have time to melee at higher levels, and can they melee/renkei well, or do other dmg-dealers laugh at their melee output?

--->1b. Do RDMs have time to nuke at higher levels, and can they nuke/burst well, or do BLMs laugh at them?

No, RDMs do not put out 'respectable' damage in my opinion, based on my own standards. Respectable damage to me means that I am able to get at least enough hits to get 100% TP to renkai (in which case means that I hit enough times and hard enough so that it doesn't end up being 0) ... which does not happen. Usually it takes me about 7-10 battles to be able to use a WS once during exp parties.

RDMs have time to melee at the upper levels, same with nuking/bursting, assuming you've done your job at everything else (healing if you're the main healer - by the way, no recommended if you are - or enfeebling/refreshing/dispelling if you're the back-up)

2. Once I get PTs at level 10-40, will I pretty much be a backliner that casts Enfeebles and little else?

Not necessarily ... if you're the back up mage and have done your job (which before-41 means dispelling and back-up healing/nuking), you can pull out your sword assuming that the time lost on healing back MP isn't going to stop your group from chaining mobs.

3. Once I get Refresh, will I get PTs strictly to keep Refresh and then to Enfeeble?

--->3a. Refresh only lasts 20 seconds, and I've got to keep 4 members refreshed at all times, atleast. Will this mean I'll never have time in high level parties to cast anything but Refresh and Enfeeble? No time for nuking and/or melee?

Refresh lasts 2 and a half minutes. A lot of RDMs can juggle refresh cycles and enfeebling/dispelling inbetween casting refreshes to members of the party. This does not give us RDMs much time at all to nuke or melee, but the time is still available in small dosages.

4. Once I am able to subjob, will PTs expect me to be WHM sub and act as a back-up Healer along with my Enfeebling role and Refresh role? Will RDM/BLM be shunned by groups that are XPing?

RDM/BLMs are pretty common among RDMs, probably more so than RDM/WHMs. Both are actually pretty interchangeable.

5. How well do RDM solo? I know they are the second best, but their damage output can't be great, so it takes a while for them to kill anything?

RDMs are the best farmers in the game simply because of their buff/debuff spells that allow them to kill more things over time. We slice through most things easy conned and under. If given the time to do so (ie. no adds), RDMs can solo toughs at high levels ... but since our damage output is low, it can take a lot longer than a Beast Tamer.

Hope that helps.

**JayblahX** · 03-29-2004, 08:11 AM

Wow, amazing replies! Truly does help alot.

Unfortunately, both of you are painting a picture of the RDM that I feared:

At higher levels, I'll lack the time to play the class as a jack of all trades, and simply be a buff-bitch (pardon the term, but its reminds me of my Enchanter in EQ, which went from an amazing class to simply a buffing and debuffing at highest level play).

At this point I think my Elvaan MNK will likely be my focal point, although the paranoia of how hard it is for MNKs to get groups (due to the ignorance of people who think MNKs are second-rate damage-dealers, and the prevalence of melees in general) is really dawning on me.

**Silverquick** · 03-29-2004, 08:27 AM

Its not just monks that face that my friend,

In reality it is ALL melee damagers. This game has a huge abundance of them compared to the relative number of party crucial classes for making the base group.

This is what you need for a Party to be a good and balanced party... 6 slots... 4 of them must be filled with these...

Tank: Sustain damage and hold agro,
1st: Pal
2nd: Nin
3rd: War

Healer: Heal the Tank and others
1st: Whm
2nd: Rdm
3rd: Mage classes with WHm sub (Blm/Whm and Sum/Whm)

Damagers
1st: Drk, Drg, Blm (Nukes)
2nd: War, Thf, Sam, Monk
3rd: Pal, Nin

Support: Enfeebling/Enhancing
1st: Rdm and Bard (equal depending on which side you need)

NOTE: there is an Ungodly huge number of damage causing classes all competing for 1-2 spots in a party. Only one or two of those will be chosen for a group.

So yes, some of those melee damagers do indeed wait for weeks on end for a group because... when it comes to melee damage its a dime a dozen thing and everyone does it better than a Red Mage.

**Silverquick** · 03-29-2004, 08:35 AM

and simply be a buff-bitch

heheh well about this specifically, you're gonna be my melee bitch and completely dependent upon me the higher you go. And that doesn't include the other things the Red Mage does.

There will come a time at level 40th plus where you will be kissing my feet just to join your party...

So who's bitch is who's here?

**Vaiyo** · 03-29-2004, 09:18 AM

No need to get defensive. After all, that statement's got some truth to it ...

... although debuff bitch is more like it. But in any case back to the original poster. If you want to play a melee-hybrid instead of a caster-hybrid, I suggest you try out Dark Knight. Granted, DRKs do not have all the cool spells that RDMs can utilize, with drain, aspir & all the absorb spells you make a pretty good addition to any team if you play your aggro right.

As with any melee other than PLD or NIN, at high levels you'll most likely run into more situations where you're waiting for a couple whours for a group ... but it's not a big deal, you can do crafts to earn gil and buy better items while you wait.

**Uroboros** · 03-29-2004, 10:49 AM

People get it wrong going in. Dark Knight is the battlemage, not RDM. Even Paladin is closer to how people think RDM might play.

You get to swing your sword but it tends to be incidental. However, rather than being upset about not really being a jack of all trades, as painted in the manual, RDMs should be happy that they're one of the only viable solo classes. Ask other pure mages how they feel about soloing, and watch as seemingly harmless solo situations go horribly wrong for pure melee classes.

**JayblahX** · 03-29-2004, 12:29 PM

Semantics aside, I'm not the type of player who enjoys being a backliner. I've been a Cleric for 3 previous MMORPGs and its high-time for a change of pace.

I had hoped the RDM could be different, but from what its said here, its not. I love the concept of being a MNK; the idea of beating the tar out of foes with my fists in a pimp Gi is... cool.

However, the paranoia of sitting on my ass for hours after coming home from work to find a PT scares me alot.

Anyway, I'm not sure I'd place MNK as 2nd-tier in damage from the resarch I've been doing (can you tell I like to learn it all before I actually start playing, lol. Forgive the annoyance).

It seems that MNKs do more sustained/consistent dmg than any other class in game (Keep in mind Rangers and BLMs do insane nuke dmg, but at the cost of gil or MP respectively, and DRK and DRGs also do burst dmg with weaponskills. All these classes also have to manage hate carefully.) MNK fists hit twice, and with a sub Warrior, they hit twice REAL FREAKIN' HARD, more than other classes melee for, all told. Along with that, they get Raging Fist (gets beaten by Pentathrust but still amazing) and the final WS (Asura something?) that supposedly is the best in the game. Versus undead, no other melee class does more damage, so I hear MNKs are high demand 60+ (though there are few that ever make it to that level because getting grouped before then is rough).

I know this is the RDM forum, but am I accurate about that? I'm still worried about getting PTed as any melee, and the thought of playing a RDM is still there too.

**Silverquick** · 03-29-2004, 12:44 PM

The reality my friend,

Is that any melee damager class will have troubles getting a group at times. Only Drk and Drg are different, and even then I have friends who play them that have gone without groups for up to a week at a time.

The only classes in this game that have an easy time getting groups are Tanks... Paladin and Ninja... and Backliners and support classes... like Whm, Rdm, and Bard.

Though Black Mages can get groups semi regularly because people generally try to fill 3 slots in the party with Backline Mages. and that is their mode of thinking when they look at it.

**Vaiyo** · 03-29-2004, 12:45 PM

I've no real experience with monks & their damage ... because quite frankly, most have 1) quit by my level or 2) haven't been invited into groups that I've been in. So sadly to say, your fear about monks are pretty real.

Though you might be right about monks doing real high damage in the game. A ranger LS member of mine said that with Asura Fist, a monk can probably do just as much (if not more) damage than BLMs and rangers. Now whether that's true or not, I do not know; I am level 60 and am just getting to the point where melees are getting their best WSs.

I'll leave the specifics to people that would know.

**Uroboros** · 03-29-2004, 04:55 PM

LS mates and other friends past 65ish tell me nothing outdamages a monk at that level besides rangers and black mages. The tough part is getting there, many people mistakenly view monk as a subpar class.

And ANY melee, as others have said, is going to have trouble getting parties. The only job where it's easier to get a party than red or white mage is bard. I routinely get invites when I forget to go /anon while farming with THF sub, without a party flag up or search comment filled out. And I cry a little for my DRK and THF friends who are LFP every day for three hours.

I didn't go into wanting to play red knowing it'd be that easy, but now that I'm there, it's a nice benefit.

**pdac** · 03-29-2004, 06:31 PM

If you're worried about red mage being boring while in the back, you're in for a surprise - it's probably one of the most demanding jobs in the game most times. You'll also enjoy it immensly if you are party leader usually, as its a great position to organize and coordinate from.

As for monk, I lead whatever party I'm in 95% of the time, and I always will welcome an experienced and well-equipped monk into a damage dealing slot. They do great consistent damage, and have several abilities and traits which make them ideal as a pummeler, not a crusher (a few incredibly damaging hits). If you like to see your hits land often and for good damage, you'll like monk - it all adds up ^^

Either way though, play what you like. Thats what its all about after all ^^-b

**SharMarali** · 03-29-2004, 09:12 PM

I don't actually have a lot to add about what's been said about RDM. I am able to quite efficiently juggle a cycle of refresh for up to 5 people, self included, (thus far I've never been in a situation where I would need to juggle it for 6 in a level up PT.. hoo boy I can't even IMAGINE a situation where that would make sense.. ^^) .. MB twice with level 3 black magic in a single renkei.. Backup heal.. Cast "enfeebles" .. And swing my sword in between, although the sword is JUST there to give me something to do when I'm not casting RIGHT that second. It's not the challenge people make it out to be, so long as you pay attention to the log. No, we're not a jack of all trades. We're casters who can attack, not attackers who can cast. At high levels, we become incredible supporters.

As for MNK..

At high levels (65+), MNKs become probably THE single most popular attacker class. Part of this is because there are a couple of areas where you fight bone type monsters, but there are also a lot of other great things about MNK. For one thing, since THF's yokodama was removed and they must now stand DIRECTLY behind the person they are "tricking" onto, you really need a human shield AND someone who can take hate for a few seconds if you have a THF in your PT. MNKs are good for this because they have stupid amounts of HP. WARs are good for this too, but most other attacker classes are not. Since most DRKs and DRGs use THF SJ nowadays, same rule applies if you have a DRK or DRG. You generally want a MNK or a WAR to be your other, non-human shield attacker.

Now, since two of my very good friends online happen to be level 75 MNKs, I have some perspective on the kind of damage a MNK can do. While it is true that some attacker jobs, at these levels, can do more damage on the whole than MNKs, MNKs deliver more consistent damage and still deal it out in vast numbers. They have incredibly powerful weapon skills. A SKILLFUL MNK must walk a fine line between doing their job well and doing it SO well that no one can pull the hate off them.

Hope this helps somewhat..

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