Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

About as far as I'd ever go with RDM/WAR is the tanking T/VT scenario or PvP. It can work in solo, but you lose a lot of nifty spells from /NIN, /BLU or other subs in the process.

/WAR is really nice for PvP, though. Provoke interrupts spells in PvP and Double Attack and Berzerk are to have in close quarter combat, not to mention you'll have a sufficient number of spells to cripple your opponents. /DRK and /NIN aslo are very nice in PvP.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Hi, me again, "the noob who brought up RDM/PLD*," showing how the upcoming version update will benefit the anti-cookie-cutter-combo:

Sentinel: "Damage Mitigation" is still quite unclear. Best case scenario, you'll have some tanking ability that can stack with both Stoneskin and Phalanx; worst case, a time costlier version of Phalanx. Also, the increased enmity on "all actions taken while in Sentinel" is awesome to make this a more viable tank.

Shield Mastery: Quite obvious. Gives this combo a vital reason for wearing a Shield solely for the prevention of interruption of spellcasting.

Of course, these can work just as great, if not better, the other way around; I'm just sharing my happiness about it here .

* - by NO means am I the first, nor will I be the last, to think of this combo as a practical use for soloing, or, for parties, the tank/heal/support. I just greatly like the concept and promote it in spite of what others may say, so don't even bother flaming me.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

What level is your RDM now? You still won't be able to take advange of Sentinel from /PLD until your Lv.60 anyway.

Shield Mastery is still not that useful to RDM; spell interruption is not much of a concern for us. We already have Aquaveil (Lv.12), and if you have Stoneskin and Phalanx up (while you should if you're in melee range), you won't be interrupted with or without a shield.

[Jei]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

In party it's very unlikely you'll be casting with 1 hand weapon. All the spells we cast in regular basis will benefit a lot from elemental staves. And on a side note, Red mages have very little reason to call hate to ourselves to begin with :O

When soloing it might help. If we were able to block with our shield more often you know. And hoping those blocks to happen while I'm casting is even a rarer case...

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I use Genbu Shield, so when I block, I'm taking little to no damage anyway. And my Enhancing Magic is so high that I can be getting walloped by 5 Mandies and still get off Phalanx's and Stoneskin's.

WAR is a better sub than PLD for solo.

Trust it.

[Taskmage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I could see shield mastery being useful solo for recasting stoneskin while under fire, but as long as stoneskin is up you can't be interrupted by melee attacks anyway.

Sentinel, if the new effect is similar to phalanx and stacks with it, I suppose could be used for taking heat off a tank, but you could do so much more reliably with a Cure IV or Sleep, either of which would be available with any sub. For solo I can't envision a situation where a defensive effect that's only active for 30 seconds every 5 minutes would enable you to do anything you couldn't otherwise do. No matter what Sentinel turns out to be, I think Cocoon would prove to be superior.

Good to see you around though. How's your rdm coming?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Hi, me again, "the noob who brought up RDM/PLD*," showing how the upcoming version update will benefit the anti-cookie-cutter-combo

On a second reading, and judging from you tone, you seem to believe Dreams' posters are normal players, and their preferences are then thus "cookie-cutter".

If that is your assumption, you are very much mistaken.

If you read the postings--not just in RDM, but in other job forums, you'll see situational recommendation for /BRD for melee jobs, /RNG for jobs w/out useful range attack, /BLU for WAR to increase damage output, the supposedly lol /DRG, /PUP, and etc. And, that's just the obvious stuff.

Anyway, the widely agreed verdict is that RDM is so good, while /PLD doesn't add much, it certainly doesn't make RDM/PLD unusable. The combination, though, is a waste in the sense that you can always sub something even more useful than /PLD.

No matter how much you want to ignore those who bring up Cure IV as the answer to what you want to do with Cover, or disregard those of us who tell you Shield Mastery adds little TP+ or SIR- to a RDM with Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Aquaveil, your desire for otherwise doesn't make them untrue.

As I've implied, normal players don't post here much; the average players don't even post on forums, this one or any other. Your plan received close scrutiny from many people with great gasp of the game mechanics, and it was rated as "ho-hum"; it can do many of the things you wanted, just not the best for any of them.

Accept that, and move on. Go level your RDM instead--it's a lot more fun. ^_^

[Taskmage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

We're beating a dead horse here, but a good analogy came to me.

If you've played chess at all, you're probably aware that the majority of games start with pawn to E4. That is the "cookie-cutter" opening for the game. It is so because it has been analyzed to have broad strength in comparison to other opening moves and leaves many options open for development in the mid-game. Many new players get quickly bored with this strategy and want to experiment with more unorthodox moves. This is a perfectly natural way to start exploring the game and expressing your creativity through it. However, as people gain experience in the game, they start recognizing and appreciating the strengths of the tactics that have become traditional and return to them for most purposes. Could a player opening with something unusual like B3 or something off the wall like H4 beat a player who leads with the king pawn? Certainly. Ultimately the player with the best understanding of the game and knowledge of the capabilities and weaknesses of their choice is favored to win, but the player starting with H8 is going to be fighting at a disadvantage and will probably get some jeers from more veteran players for making a comparatively weak move.

Red mage subs are the same way. It may be true that the majority of people using accepted subs are simply sheep and don't understand why they made that choice. That's why the term cookie-cutter has become so negative. But there are also us players that have explored and considered the other options and have come back to the traditional combinations because we recognize that blm and whm are solid subs with broad utility and are most likely to give easy access to the tools we need as the party develops. Other subs just don't have equivalents for staple spells like Sleepga, Escape, Silena and Curaga.

Gotta leave for a christmas party so I'll cut this short. I have had red mages using traditional subs that were absolutely useless. I would rather have a rdm/pld that knows what they're doing than a rdm/whm that doesn't understand their responsibilities or the needs of the party. BUT because most experienced players tend to choose /blm or /whm over other subs, between two rdms I don't know, one with a cookie-cutter sub and one with something weird, I like my chances better inviting the cookie-cutter mage.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

On a second reading, and judging from you tone, you seem to believe Dreams' posters are normal players, and their preferences are then thus "cookie-cutter".

If that is your assumption, you are very much mistaken.

If you read the postings--not just in RDM, but in other job forums, you'll see situational recommendation for /BRD for melee jobs, /RNG for jobs w/out useful range attack, /BLU for WAR to increase damage output, the supposedly lol /DRG, /PUP, and etc. And, that's just the obvious stuff.

That is not my assumption: it MIGHT have been if I were met with about a million more "STFU NOOB"s than I was (and, so far, the only person who really called me a noob was myself). vosotros!

Anyway, the widely agreed verdict is that RDM is so good, while /PLD doesn't add much, it certainly doesn't make RDM/PLD unusable. The combination, though, is a waste in the sense that you can always sub something even more useful than /PLD.

Pretty much what I was aiming for: something that would be okay for me in plenty of situations, but not the best for, well, anything. Hey, isn't that what "jack-of-all-trades" means? Though by NO means will I EVER critisise anybody else's decisions: I'm hardly in the position to do so, lol!

No matter how much you want to ignore those who bring up Cure IV as the answer to what you want to do with Cover, or disregard those of us who tell you Shield Mastery adds little TP+ or SIR- to a RDM with Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Aquaveil, your desire for otherwise doesn't make them untrue.

As I've implied, normal players don't post here much; the average players don't even post on forums, this one or any other. Your plan received close scrutiny from many people with great gasp of the game mechanics, and it was rated as "ho-hum"; it can do many of the things you wanted, just not the best for any of them.

Again, when I say jack-of-all-trades, I seriously mean it. Not to say all of your suggestions, tips, and misscelania aren't INCREDIBLY smart and helpful ^_^ .

Accept that, and move on. Go level your RDM instead--it's a lot more fun. ^_^

Will do!

If I said anything that could pose an arguement, alert me, because that is exactly the thing I am avoiding.

But on the subject of odd subjobs (pre-emptive no offense, I already said I'm not doing any real criticism), you know why Monks don't sub Red Mage?

Because when ever they cast an Enfire . . . "OHMYGOODNESSMYHANDSAREONFIRE!"

(Again, no offense to any real MNK/RDMs; it was just a joke. If anybody had RDM/PLD jokes, I'd laugh with them, too.)



On a more serious note, has it been confirmed that Sentinel stacks with Stoneskin and Phalanx? From what I've heard, after everything is said and done, the damage Sentinel reduces is 90% of what it would have been (1000 Needles minus Sentinel equals only 100 damage, and that is when not enhanced by PLD JSE O_o ).

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

>_>

If you browse through The Red Mage Index, you'll find a link for "En-spell damage explanation".

* Enhancing Magic skill < 150
(SQRT(enhancing_magic_skill) - 1) * (1 + weather_modifier + date_modifier)
* Enhancing Magic skill > 150
(( enhancing_magic_skill / 20 ) + 5 ) * (1 + weather_modifier + date_modifier)

Since en-spell damage is based on Enhancing Magic, MNK/RDM would only have minimal damage added per punch, given his Enhancing Magic would be half-levled at best, compared to the RDM's. Beserk, Warcry, and Attack Bonus from /WAR would be much more helpful, and is therefore the preferred support job for MNK's.

As with RDM/PLD, the answer to "Why Monks don't sub Red Mage?" is "Because, there's always a better support job to use instead."

If additional healing is desperately needed, MNK/WHM will do better than MNK/RDM. If damage is needed, MNK/WAR. If MNK is taking too much damage, he can use /NIN (though unlikely to be happy about it).

If no "real" healer seeking, ditch the MNK/RDM, and get a DRG/WHM or PLD/WHM instead.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

. . . It was a joke. -.-;

Because, you know, if the Monk En-spells, it would be applied to his Knuckles, ispo ergo his hands. I was being hypothetical, anything but serious, and apologetic to anybody who may be offended.

[Mikamaru]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

/NIN RDM with cap'd daggers and evisceration can keep up with a normal not so merited DD class with 2 low delay daggers. 20 base dmg from enspell if enhancing magic is cap'd. rdm dont use swords... the dmg is not as good. unless you got a joytoy

/SMN is a joke to pt with, its not worth it

/BRD is just about the same, Ballad will last 1/2 the time and any song you put on melee is at 1/2 strenght.

/blm is good if there is a whm. about what who ever said about the /BLM enfebs, choke rasp drown ect... there not that great for normal pt's by the time u get off all your rdm enfebs then start on the blm enfebs the fight will almost be over. that and if you think you can /blm and replace a blm, your dreamin. i'm a RDM75 taru, a BLM hume can out DD me with the same Tier III spell. and i do have MaB gear to help.


/whm is overall the best choice for rdm for many reasons. 1, divine seal. it saves you 100mp when you convert. -na spells, macroing in your -na spells will save a nin's ass if he's para'd. and the -ra spells are okay to have, when ever i main heal in a pt i -ra everyone and IV the tank. 80% of merit pt's im in i'm the only mage, i've tried /blm and /whm. /whm was by far WAY eaiser to squeez my MP out for 10 mins. that and you have a higher Clear Mind with /whm...


/drk is for HNM/NM pt's for chain stun. no point in going /drk in a xp pt when u can /nin

/war is a joke if u plan on xping with. pple do that in teh d00nz

/rng is fun to play around with


PVP:

/nin /blu /blm

Depending on lv uncap i like going /nin altho i've found it eaiser to kill a PLD going /blu and Garuda's dagger longer fight but i've found your stoneskin will last almost twice as long, guess its player preference tho

[arkaine23]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Juices and Food stack. You can be under effect of attack or acc food and still pop juices constantly.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Juices and Food stack. You can be under effect of attack or acc food and still pop juices constantly.

How do you plan to carry enough ingredients to "pop juice constantly" to last 3+ hours? Heck, how do you plan to find the time to craft juice during parties? >_>; I can barely find time for /heal on most of the time.

/SMN is a joke to pt with, its not worth it

It's situational; best Convert, and Auto-Refresh is nicer than Ballad from /BRD for its "always on" nature. (Though, it is only only for yourself). Aerial Armor has marginal utility for overly eager melee type without /NIN, to boot.

/BRD is just about the same, Ballad will last 1/2 the time and any song you put on melee is at 1/2 strenght.

RDM/BRD is a very strong choice in MP heavy parties; 4 MP/tick is a 25% performance increase over 3 MP/tick with only Refresh. In a mage heavy party, no need to cast as many enfeebs, and practically no need to Cure at all, so one's own MP pool isn't as much of a concern.

/whm is overall the best choice for rdm for many reasons. 1, divine seal. it saves you 100mp when you convert. -na spells, macroing in your -na spells will save a nin's ass if he's para'd. and the -ra spells are okay to have, when ever i main heal in a pt i -ra everyone and IV the tank. 80% of merit pt's im in i'm the only mage, i've tried /blm and /whm. /whm was by far WAY eaiser to squeez my MP out for 10 mins. that and you have a higher Clear Mind with /whm...

That last part is false; Clear Mind from /WHM will not stack with RDM's native Clear Mind trait. Otherwise, I do agree RDM/WHM is the most useful exp combo.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

RDM/BRD is a very strong choice in MP heavy parties; 4 MP/tick is a 25% performance increase over 3 MP/tick with only Refresh. In a mage heavy party, no need to cast as many enfeebs, and practically no need to Cure at all, so one's own MP pool isn't as much of a concern.

I'd say RDM/BRD is extremely situational. If you're EXPing in a zone where there's no quick way out, I'd still feel better with /BLM for CS/Escape if the need arises. MP heavy PTs just don't happen unless its manaburn. Even if they do at 55+ you have Sanction Refresh to enjoy. That's a constant Ballad.

And now in the Conquest zones, the +hHP recovery is insane with Signet, melee and tanks have no excuse not to rest when the opportunity comes, which is going to take the burden off mages not only in EXP PTs, but alliance play as well. Remember, we topped off melee and tank because if they did rest, there was TP loss. There is no TP loss with Signet active now, so that's saving MP right there.

And in a mage-heavy PT - which is usually a manaburn these days - I trust a BLM to cure as far as I could throw them. They're typically not good about monitoring cures, which leaves the burden of curing on the RDM more often than not in such a setup. /WHM is going to support that function better anyway. And really, if you're in a good manaburn, you're going to have BLMs loaded to the brim with +hMP gear anyway. I'd sooner go RDM/NIN than /BRD in manaburn, provided one BLM would be willing to go /WHM.

RDM/BRD is a nice idea, but I've never really found a scenario where it was necessary, I just can't justify 1 extra MP a tick over what I could get from other subjobs. I could see its benefits in alliance play prior to the Signet change, but ever other instance I've thought it might have been plausible, it seem the idea is quickly snuffed out. So I still find /BRD advocates to be on the fringe