Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[LordBiGGs]

oh yea, i've been wondering if anyone has tried rdm/brd in an exp party. refresh and ballad would be really sweet and since most of the mp you use at higher lvl's is from mp regen spells (ex: my pld usually goes a whole chain without resting) anyway, i figured the mp hit from subbing a job with no mp would be made up for with ballad. not that rdm's usually rest anyway.

[sYdeFekt]

Just a reply on the Rdm/Drk...

I've leveld as Rdm/Drk from 30 - 49 and its a pretty fun combo, as long as you do your job as a rdm so far i've had no complaints from any Party that i get to join and I dont have much trouble with getting invites as well, even have some invites for statics. @lvl 49rdm/drk i can sometimes do over 200+ WS damage on IT++ mobs on exp party's if around 200 TP. Also you can switch to strength+ gear before doing WS, then change back to mana gear after.

But as the higher the level gets i've noticed that it becomes more effective to just use magic (either offensive/support) against IT mobs on exp parties, so that makes you realize that it would be more effective to sub a mage job also. But better sub doesnt always equate to a better player...

74 Rdm/Drk Chainspell + Stun/Drain/Aspir is cool.

[Tomoh]

RDM/DRK is a very popular for Dynamis, HNM, and on Fenrir PTs. As sYdeFekt stated, Chainspell+Stun is very useful. My Dynamis LS is asking all RDM to sub DRK for Dynamis Xarcabard.

I have BLM43, WHM42, and SMN41. Now I have to level my DRK18. Also, my LS is asking me to bring my Nin12 up to 37 as well. Besides the time it takes to level these jobs, I also need to raise WAR10 so that DRK won't be gimped. To be proper DRK and NIN, I need to invest in equipments and weapon skills as well. I'm enjoying being a melee and tank but the time required is...

[SpiderKing]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Is Beastmaster a good and/or decent sub job?

[arkaine23]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I hear it is a good solo sub. Lower lvl'ed bst makes charms a little harder, but maybe not as hard as you might think (80-90% success on DC's I've heard). Plus rdm is alltogether better at taking hits than a bst main bc of defensive buffs when you need to charm/recharm your pet. Hume natural charisma ftw.

[Armando]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

/BST can work on any main as long as you keep it as high as the main job. You'll be forced to keep your pet though until the very high levels. That, or kill it against something that's stronger.

Suppose we have two weapons, Weapon A (D20/Delay200) and Weapon B (D40/Delay400). Many people misunderstand A and B have the same performance but that's not true. B is always better because of its higher WR.

fSTR is a function. How much fSTR you gain depends on the DMG of the weapon. I don't know the exact specifics but it most likely is a balancing factor.

4. damage/delay calculations - 20damage/200 delay does not equal 40damage/400 delay. for one thing the 40 damage will hit more than twice as hard even if str and attack is the same. also 400 delay isnt double 200 delay. there is a base delay to be added in. an easy example of base delay is an mnk with 0 delay fists. basically what i'm saying is 40damage/400 delay does more than 20damage/200delay duel wielded. even with dual wield II, same attack/acc/str the 40 damage/400 delay will still do more.

Quite on the contrary. There is no base delay. This only applies to MNKs, as their weapons are basically enhancements for their fists. If you notice, MNK weapons give Delay+, and don't have a fixed Delay like other weapons.

And Dual Weild is nothing but 1) One more hit in your WS; 2) A speed enhancement; 3) Off-hand weapon bonuses. It doesn't do anything for your TP, and for every time you cast Utsusemi you're already neglecting the speed bonus. The value of NIN sub comes mostly from the safety of Utsusemi, and the value of Dual Weild is pretty much proportional to how good the bonuses on your off-hand weapon are in my opinion. It better be good if you're giving up your shield for it.

For an in-depth analysis of Dual Weild go here: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52568 It's argued from a WAR perspective, but the basic principles still apply to RDM with swords.

[Kadenmire]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I am redmage of long standing and have tride many subs. When I first tride RDM I thought to have WHM or BLM as my sub but I found these to be more of a disadvantage to those who like to solo. The combination I've found that I like is Redmage/Ranger.

Pros Jack-of-all-trades in magic, Elemental ranged attacks, Melee fighter.

Cons Can't use heavy armor or weapons, Can't use guns or crossbows,
Can't use highest level WHM/BLM magic.

Basically I am a Jack-Of-All-Trades not a specialist this works well for me because I mainly solo but I think that this combination could work in a party as well.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Hmm, not sure what to say to that other than, good luck.

RDM/RNG is fine for solo, well. . . . not really, but RDM/mage is the way to go in lower level parties.

RDMs strength is not that we can use higher lvl Black or White magics. Leave that to the Black and White mages. RDM strength is that we are versatile and need skills to augment our natural abilities. RNG adds nothing to RDM from a party perspective, and it's marginal from even a solo perspective.

RDM solo is about longevity. With a D in accuracy, soloing, especially after the distance adjustment, is damned near impossible if you want to depend on arrows. Quite honestly, you'd be better off with a BLM sub so that you can drain and aspir, or even Warp/Escape if things look bad.

For soloing, there are a bunch of subs, and recently, PLD came to the forefront. NIN is still good for surviveability. BLM is still good when you want a solid sub that kills things VEEERY slowly, but safely. DRK is good if you have an attack build. RNG, I wouldn't mess with that outside of Ballista or skill up pts.

[Meth]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I see a lot of posts mentioning /BLM for Rasp, Shock, Frost, etc.. but one of the largest advantages for /WHM are the status cures. If I am asked to be main heal I always sub WHM for this reason, if there is a WHM in party I sub BLM for the elemental enfeebles, drain, and aspir.

[rrynn]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

here's my 2 cents, listing only subs i personally have lved and therefore have exprience with.

rdm/blm
pros: nice all around utility. you get a high mp pool, some extra int, elemental seal, drain, aspir, ele.enfeebles, conserve mp, escape, sleepga for croud control, wizard's earring for +5 elemental skill, and you never have to walk home.
cons: lacks status cures/curaga if you're main healing or xping on stat effect happy monsters. doesnt add anything useful to melee soloing except warp/escape for emergencies.

rdm/whm
pros: erase, -na spells, bar spells, protectra/shellra, curaga, slightly higher mnd, divine seal, healer's earring when you need one more -emnity.
cons: smaller mp pool then rdm/blm, adds nothing useful to melee or sleep/nuke soloing unless dealing w a status happy mob, divine seal/cure IV after convert gets annoying if you merit convert timer much, and you only get basic teles so you often have to walk quite a long way home.

rdm/brd
pros: ballad, paeon is better then our crappy regen 1 anyway, small bonus from minuete/mandrigal but not much, you could piss things off w foe/horde lullaby if needed but probably not sleep them reliably.
cons: very party specific. rocks for manaburns, for if you're in the blm pt in dynmis, for some missions and oddball xp party setups. but your brd buffs are half level, and nothing will not give the boots a full brds songs would. you dont get any mp from brd sub so you'll have a smaller then normal mp pool.

rdm/nin
pros: utsusemi, dual weild for offhanding a stat weapon (like martial analace for tp effect, or thantos baselard for some extra feeb skill) or for 2 fast daggers and enspell fun. survivability basically. with good timing and enough blink tools you can survive most mobs nearly indefinately once you get :ni. neat for tanking in some situations, just 2 hr sleep 2 to get hate at the start and have a thf handy for sata.
cons: low mp pool. adds little if anything to most xp situations, does not really do much in terms of increasing our dmg melee wise. there's a reason those avestra videos are so damn long...

rdm/drk
pros: stun, chainspell stun for gods/hmns/generally badassary. drain and aspir before you'd get them from /blm. absmnd. i've occationally used rdm/drk as a caster job in xp parties and casting paralyze after sticking absmnd gets some sick resaults. for melee solo, gives you a better mp pool then most other solo subs, nice native attack up trait, souleater/last resort for weaponskills, access to weaponskills such as vorpal blade, and you get to wear a nifty killers earring for +5 attack.
cons: lower mp pool then blm or whm sub, still doesnt give you the ability to pull "real" dd numbers on xp mobs.

[Meepus]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I thought I would give some insight here as to the world of the RDM/WAR, as no one else had said anything about it.

CONS:

Social/General: RDM/WAR is generally frowned upon as a really poor class combination excluding solo. You can expect to have a more difficult time finding parties. This class combination demands your subjob be levelled, as it is necessary to gather every scrap of power you can to make this work. This class combo demands a lot of equipment, a lot of money, and a lot of attention.

Stats: You're going to miss out on a lot of MP. You're going to lose some MND and some INT as well. You will have to make up for this with rings, wands, necklaces, and cloaks. This means learning and utilizing equipment change macros for almost everything you do.

Abilities: You're trading off a lot of backline and support ability for frontline ability that is very much self-only. You will lose elemental debuffs, -ga or -na spells, seals, and the job traits inherent in a mage sub.

Pros:

Social/General: You can solo. Not only can you solo, but you can do it damn well. You'll be able to solo T-VT all the way to your thirties. You can tank. You can even do it just as well as normal tanks all the way until 30. I tanked for quite a few parties in Valkum, Qufim and Kazham and never missed a beat. You can function as a watered down paladin, with better hate control all the way until Flash hits the scenes.

Stats: As a Hume RDM/WAR my stats varied from each other by less than 3-4 through every level. You are the epitome of balance. You do nothing excellent, you do nothing poorly. You can fill any role that comes in demand, as long as your equipment is ready to ADJUST to it.

Abilities: You get voke. And more defense. This can be very hard to work with compared to the other abilities you could have. But if you want to be a RDM/WAR you have to realize it isn't a game of stats or abilities, it is a playstyle.

FAQ I get about RDM/WAR ingame

Does RDM/WAR solo well? Yes. I'd argue it solos better than any job other than BST.

Do you have that much trouble getting a PT? No. RDMs are that much in demand. People will give you funny looks, but put up a good search comment.

Can RDM/WAR really tank? Yes, up until about 30, at which point you start fighting mobs with a lot more double attack, and a lot more damage. I would predict that RDM/WAR loses almost all tanking ability in a PT until level 50 when defender can be used.

Does RDM/WAR do lots of damage? No. No. And for the last time, no. You want big damage and casting, go DRK! RDM/WAR functions in a way that wears monsters down. Yes you can solo Ts and VTs pretty easy, but it takes minutes and minutes to do so.

Does RDM/WAR farm well? Yes. But only after you get Refresh and Convert to eliminate downtime.

You CAN TANK, you can NOT do lots of damage. That about sums it up.

Thanks for this. In the beginning I thought myself quite crazy to lvl RDM/WAR but I soon found out that it wasn't so bad, atleast so far; current RDM lvl being 17.

For anyone thinking about not solo'ing RDM/WAR between lvls 10-17 and would rather take the plunge just for fun, really, in a pt @ Valkurm Dunes:

Basically~ Stacks of Rolanberry pies, good armor and decent weapon for appropiate lvl = key; IMO.

By doing this I can melee, enfeeb, and nuke nicely. I didn't get to try and use provoke though, as we had a PL and we let him soak up the hate.. so as far as tanking goes, I have no experience whatsoever.

This is how I went about everything, perhaps use it as guideline if you wish:

First things first:

One key word! MACROS MACROS MACROS. If you don't use Macros I can almost guarantee this whole ordeal will become very difficult and frustrating.. seeing as you are Nuke'ing, Enfeeb'ing, and Melee'ing each mob consecutively one after another, rapid fire. So yah, use them. They are your friend ^-^

Starting:

Enfeeb~ Dia, Blind, Paralyze -- in that order for every mob

Continue with:

Nuke~ Stone, Water, Aero; I mostly did Aero considering it did the most dmg, but whatever MP permits, use it.. Although I advise not to use all your MP for each and every mob unless absolutely neccessary since that can become time-consuming, you lose TP for having to heal so much (although the WS's as rdm/war do sucky dmg I'm afraid O.o), and besides the fact you can always Melee.. and again, if MP permits enfeeb/nuke some more whilst melee'ing

And Lastly:

Melee~ Of course since by the time you get to Melee the HP of the mobs should be pretty middle-to-low, but if you have a decent weapon (Spatha is great!) you can still do not too bad dmg melee'ing.. so give it a try ^-^


Andddd, that's pretty much it.


Please keep in kind that I've only lvled RDM/WAR only as far as lvl17 (at dunes), and have no experience whatsoever in lvling that combo on a higher level. I found the RDM/WAR combo to be actually quite fun.. if your willing to fork over money for pies (about 4k for a stack) and good equipment. Boooyah

[Icemage]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

RDM/WAR is outmoded, except maybe when you're a small group situation where you need Provoke to tank.

For solo play RDM/BLU is now a much stronger combination, as it gives you access to a variety of interesting new spells, particularly Coccoon (+50% Defense) which gives you stronger defense to combine with Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Bio II or Bio III (at level 75) to make things hit you for much less damage.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Meepus,

At RDM17/WAR8, you get exactly one useful thing from /WAR, which is Provoke. With Provoke, Cure and Blind, RDM/WAR can actually be a decent enough tank at those levels--but if you're not tanking, RDM/WAR is pointless.

At RDM20/WAR10, you actually get a defense bonus from /WAR, so if you want to tank, that's really the level to start anyway. Eat defense food (like boiled crab), gulp juice, and forget your TP if you really want to play RDM/WAR; RDM is a mage, and needs MP.

If you don't want to tank, use RDM/WHM instead, please.

Note that /WAR doesn't really make your sword strikes all that much more powerful. If anything, /RNG, /DRG, or /DRK during RDM Lv.20-29 will improve your damage more than /WAR. Of course, if you're after damage, you're better off with some other job instead of RDM.

* * *

/heal on between battles, get your MP, and use a wand when casting spells for more MND and INT. In fact, switch to a different wand when resting for MP; Pilgrim's Wand is your friend.

If you must swing a sword, remember your en- spells; those can easily add 25% or more to your melee damage, while the WS's will not do much, as you've observed yourself.

Unless you are tanking, don't melee monsters with AoE attacks (e.g. "Bomg Toss") or nasty enfeeb moves like Sleepga (e.g. "Dream Flower"). Last thing any party needs is an MP sponge of a RDM.

[Sabaron]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Unless you are tanking, don't melee monsters with AoE attacks (e.g. "Bomg Toss") or nasty enfeeb moves like Sleepga (e.g. "Dream Flower"). Last thing any party needs is an MP sponge of a RDM.

I meleed as RDM all the way up to Refresh. We're not that bad, you just have to get proper nutrition and choose different gear. After Refresh, though, you need skill-up parties to keep melee up which you will want to do because the only situation in which you can't contribute in melee is XP and that's because XP parties pick on VT/IT. If you like your sword, i've found the Fencer's Ring is very nice if you can get your healers to cooperate (WHM's hate yellow HP). The ring activates with <100%TP and <75%HP (Yellow) and it gives +5 En- damage, which, at my level, is about a 10% damage boost. You'll still be hitting for 70 when the big guys are hitting for 150, but hey... damage is damage and as long as your Stoneskin is up, you won't be an "MP Sponge". Throwing on a Bar-status and a Bar-element are also nice. Plus if you sub BLU (which I love as a main and as a sub for RDM so far) you'll have to be in melee range to use half of your good spells anyway. The only problem with BLU is that a BLU needs "room to work" because a lot of the best spells are AoE, so throwing a Sandspin in a worm infested tunnel is not an option.

[Aaramis]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Not going to add my 2cp on *why* or *why not* a RDM should melee, but I have a question on *how* a RDM can effectively melee. Especially pre-41.

Maybe it's just me, but I spent every possible moment in a PT that I could bending a knee to rest.
With enfeebles (Dia, Slow, Paralyze, as well as the occasional Blind, Silence, Gravity - not to mention re-casts if an enfeeble drops early), and backup heals and/or nukes, I would easily spend 15-20% of my mp pool per fight. Sometimes closer to 30%.
Which means that if I were meleeing, I'd be out of MP by chain #2.

Unless you melee and drink juices? But then that would cut your melee efficiency by not eating +atk or +acc food, and would probably miss quite frequently (which means you'd do better damage by nuking).

*shrug*

Post 41, though, when you no longer need (or have time!) to rest, meleeing might be a possibility - but I'm still a fan of nuking over meleeing, unless you're solo (at which point you can safely melee using phalanx, stoneskin, utsusemi, etc.).