Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[LegendaryFire]

Originally posted by DrMrLordX
There's way too much rdm/nin promotion going on here.

Dual-wielding does not make you hit much more often. The best delay you're going to get, as listed here:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=38872

by Divine Spirit

is LVL 25 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.85

Nothing too impressive, especially considering the fact that rdm/nin will be whiffing most of the time against ITs anyway(just like the rest of us. Sorry, bud). EN-magic isn't going to be much more powerful in your hands because you won't be hitting that much more often. You can pile on haste gear with /equip macros, but ehh, then you're compromising yourself by taking away slots that could go for +acc gear instead(in your meleeset).

Dual-wielding, so far as I know, does not make you hit harder.

Dual-wielding a sword and a wand at the same time is a bad idea because you're only watering down your damage output with the sword to hold a wand for stat bonuses. Every time you swing, one of those hits(the wand) will likely be 0 damage, or close to it. A rdm single-wielding a sword or wand can easily swap between the two to cast spells while meleeing. Swap in wand, cast spell, swap in sword/dagger/whatever, resume attacking.

Dual-wielding two wands ain't all that great either. Keep in mind that a rdm/<insertmagejobhere> will likely be using one wand at least some of the time, if not all of the time. You're only gaining the advantage of one more wand, which will only barely offset the stat boost you'd otherwise get from a mage sub(and does nothing to offset the mp bonus and spells/job abilities you're missing). And, there are some fairly interesting shields out there that rdm can use which you will not get while dual-wielding wands.

Rdm/nin will use ninjitsu at a lower level of effectiveness than would a nin/*. Even nin mains don't do much damage or inflict much elemental vulnerability upon targets with attack ninjitsu. You won't double the effectiveness of elemental attack spells. I've had ninja mains use attack ninjitsu for my benefit as a blm and a rdm, and I noticed very little difference. If you want to improve the performance of your nukes, use the /blm sub and cast Burn. Burn rules.

I severely doubt that some rdm/nin will MB for more damage than a stand-alone blm could hope to do, given the fact that a blm of the same level will almost always have available offensive spells one order of magnitude higher than what a rdm would have. They also have more int AND more elemental skill.

I agree. Sure a +1 wand is going to increase some stats, but it still doesn't make up for lost for what /blm or /whm bring to the job. (Or even /summoner.)

I actually plan on doing rdm/nin for soloing. It helps increase your sword skill while waiting for a pt at higher levels. (Even though I'm not there yet.)

That and it might be fun at 75 dual wielding Excalibur. (vicious)

[Patchinko]

As I said in my first post about RDM/NIN, I was speaking from my experience up to that point, which I believe was the late 30s. I have since gained quite a bit of experience. Soon after making my last post pointing out the benefits of RDM/NIN up to that point in my gaming experience, I came to realize something that many have said from the start:

RDM/NIN loses all efficacy in a normal party.

I stuck with RDM/NIN for too long. It was all too apparent that it became an ineffective sub by the early 40s. Therefore, I switched to RDM/BLM, which is a much more effective sub throughout the entire game.

While I stand by my statement that RDM/NIN can be effective in earlier levels, after the mid-30s, it's reasonless. The ninjutsu that was at one point boosting bursts is greatly outweighed by the boosts you'd get from a BLM sub in INT, MP and Mgc. Atk. Bonus by the mid-30s and prior to that BLM, at least, would still be a more effective sub.

One would be better off starting out with RDM/BLM or RDM/WHM and later on leveling NIN sub for higher level soloing.

The desire to be unique can only outweigh the desire to be maximally effective for so long. You can learn it the long way as I did, or you can just start off doing it most effectively.

I was careful in my first post to make it clear that RDM/NIN isn't as effective a sub as BLM, WHM or even SMN, but simply an alternative. However, after reaching later levels, I can say with no doubt that in a party situation, it really stops being an effective option after the late 30s. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend it as a subjob to anyone thinking of using it in a PT setting anymore, since he or she would simply have to stop using it eventually and switch to BLM or WHM anyhow (or have an ineffective sub).

If you want to be the best RDM, I think BLM sub is the way to go now, having used NIN, WHM and BLM. WHM is always a good backup if a PT has no main healer besides yourself and NIN is good for late-level soloing, but for overall maximum effectiveness in a PT, it seems like BLM has the most benefits to me.

Sorry if my earlier statements convinced anyone to go 75 levels using RDM/NIN (...yeah, right! ^-^)!

[Ruic]

I thought I would give some insight here as to the world of the RDM/WAR, as no one else had said anything about it.

CONS:

Social/General: RDM/WAR is generally frowned upon as a really poor class combination excluding solo. You can expect to have a more difficult time finding parties. This class combination demands your subjob be levelled, as it is necessary to gather every scrap of power you can to make this work. This class combo demands a lot of equipment, a lot of money, and a lot of attention.

Stats: You're going to miss out on a lot of MP. You're going to lose some MND and some INT as well. You will have to make up for this with rings, wands, necklaces, and cloaks. This means learning and utilizing equipment change macros for almost everything you do.

Abilities: You're trading off a lot of backline and support ability for frontline ability that is very much self-only. You will lose elemental debuffs, -ga or -na spells, seals, and the job traits inherent in a mage sub.

Pros:

Social/General: You can solo. Not only can you solo, but you can do it damn well. You'll be able to solo T-VT all the way to your thirties. You can tank. You can even do it just as well as normal tanks all the way until 30. I tanked for quite a few parties in Valkum, Qufim and Kazham and never missed a beat. You can function as a watered down paladin, with better hate control all the way until Flash hits the scenes.

Stats: As a Hume RDM/WAR my stats varied from each other by less than 3-4 through every level. You are the epitome of balance. You do nothing excellent, you do nothing poorly. You can fill any role that comes in demand, as long as your equipment is ready to ADJUST to it.

Abilities: You get voke. And more defense. This can be very hard to work with compared to the other abilities you could have. But if you want to be a RDM/WAR you have to realize it isn't a game of stats or abilities, it is a playstyle.

FAQ I get about RDM/WAR ingame

Does RDM/WAR solo well? Yes. I'd argue it solos better than any job other than BST.

Do you have that much trouble getting a PT? No. RDMs are that much in demand. People will give you funny looks, but put up a good search comment.

Can RDM/WAR really tank? Yes, up until about 30, at which point you start fighting mobs with a lot more double attack, and a lot more damage. I would predict that RDM/WAR loses almost all tanking ability in a PT until level 50 when defender can be used.

Does RDM/WAR do lots of damage? No. No. And for the last time, no. You want big damage and casting, go DRK! RDM/WAR functions in a way that wears monsters down. Yes you can solo Ts and VTs pretty easy, but it takes minutes and minutes to do so.

Does RDM/WAR farm well? Yes. But only after you get Refresh and Convert to eliminate downtime.

You CAN TANK, you can NOT do lots of damage. That about sums it up.

[Patchinko]

RDM/WAR wouldn't make a good tank at 50 or beyond either because he's so low damage that keeping hate away from heavy hitting RNG, MNK or DRK is going to be impossible.

[modnar]

About Duel Weild

I don't know why you guys are putting down the Duel Weild. aybe I am missing something.. as far as I can see, it DOES make you hit faster.

If you use with 1 weapon with 200 delay, to hit 4 times you need 800 delay time (8 seconds?).

If you use 2 weapons with 200 delay with the Duel Weild equation, to hit 2 times you need:

(200 * 2) * 0.85 (for Duel Weild 2) = 340 delay time.
To hit 4 times, you will have 680 delay time (6.8 seconds?)
If we say a battle takes 1 minute to finish:
Single Weild you get 7.5 attacks.
Duel Weild you get 8.8 attacks.

__________________________________

Let me take this a bit further:


Delay Duel Wield #2 = 0.85 * (Weapon #1 Delay + Weapon #2 Delay) /2 hits
Delay Duel Wield #4 = 0.70 * (Weapon #1 Delay + Weapon #2 Delay) /2 hits


Weapon Name: DMG: Delay: (Delay/DMG): (DMG/Delay)

Ascention (Synth): 79 : 480: (6.08) : (0.165)

Epee (Sword): 35 : 221: (6.31) : (0.158)
Epee (DW #2): 35 : 188: (5.37) : (0.186)
Epee (DW #4): 35 : 154: (4.40) : (0.230)

Fudo (Katana): 37 : 232: (6.20) : (0.160)
Fudo (DW #4): 37 : 162: (4.39) : (0.228)


For a Ninja:
So basicaly, if you are using Fudo (Katana) with DW #4, you are basicaly doing the same damage of a Synth (with 480 delay) that has a damage of 109+ (compared to 79 real Synth damage).

That is +30 weapon damage compared to a powerful Synth!!


For a /NIN:
If you are using a Epee (sword) with DW #2, you are basicaly doing the same damage of a Synth (with 480 delay) that has a damage of 89+ (compared to 79 real Synth damage).

That is +10 weapon damage compared to a powerful Synth!!



Did I miss something that you guys know? Is my logic flawed somehow? Please tell me...

Note:

I am calculating based on the DMG and Delay of weapons ONLY, not STR and Att etc. +30 (for Nin) and +10 (for /Nin) are the additions to the weapon DMG not the actual damage done. Just thought I would clarify that.

[Chiren]

I am 52 RDM/BLM currently. I wanna give RDM/NIN a try - my goal is 55RDM/NIN with dual Wize Wizard Anelaces. ^^

Your calculations seem pretty good modnar - however they are missing the critically important difference in stats between a mage class and a warrior class.

The worst part about subbing NIN is of course your mage stats are not as strong. Its that tradeoff that parties hate. Yeah I've heard of really specific set PTs where the RDM/NIN tanks while the thf tricks hate onto him, but realistically I think the only party-valid nin-sub combo is WAR/NIN. All things equal a RDM/NIN would hit like a girl compared to a WAR/NIN with the same weapons and same equipment.

I'm actually trying to switch my part-sub to SMN. Yeah you lose out on fun stuff like elemental seal and divine seal and my precious warp spell...

But Garuda -> Party Blink would kick ass. Everyone gets 3 shadows(!).

[leii]

a rdm/nin would be very good for soloeing but in a party a blm or whm sub would be better

[modnar]

Whoah! This post! I remember this post!

How come nobody has said anything about my Duel Weild argument above?

Any comments?

Edit: just read that comment above. Yeah I know about mage vs melee classes. But I was just saying that ppl are putting down an awesome attribute (Duel Weild), so I put forward that argument.

[Apple Pie]

Actual melee damage is calculated by

(D + fSTR) * (ATK / DEF multiplier = 0 ~ 2.4)

fSTR: WR + 0 ~ WR + 8
WR: int (D / 9)

Suppose we have two weapons, Weapon A (D20/Delay200) and Weapon B (D40/Delay400). Many people misunderstand A and B have the same performance but that's not true. B is always better because of its higher WR.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by comparing Ascention and Epee. Are you saying RDM does better than BST does?

[modnar]

No no. Nothing about RDM and BST.

I was just taking 2 weapons for comparison. I wanted to illustrate that Duel Wield can make 2 one-handers give more output than 1 two-hander. At the time (and even now), I am not concentrating on what those weapons actualy are or anything like that. I just took some realy powerful weapons (I think I choose the strongest in thier category at the time with decent delay) to help illustrate the point.

I do not know what WR is or what it stands for. If you explain it I might be able to post a better reply. Its been a while but I am not sure what "WR: int (D/9)" means. However I do understand that you are trying to point out that the fSTR is effected by the weapons Damage listed on the weapon since this WR is part of it.

My argument is based on Damage/Delay ratio where I keep the Damage constant and change the Delay. I do not put into consideration any WR. This is how I am trying to show the Duel Weild is a powerful asset because it decreases delay and can bring the damage output to the same area (or surpass it) of a 2 handed weapon since we are dealing with DOT (damage over time).

So the whole thing is realy simplified.

Now, with the added variable of this "WR" you bring in, it would be interesting to see which of the the weapons I argue about gives out a higher DOT. Is the WR difference enough to offset the decrease in delay Duel Wielding brings to the table?

In l33t terms:
You give a Ninja 2 weapons with D20/200delay and a Dark Knight with D40/400delay.

Who does more damage over time if all variables (ATT, STR) except weapons are the same, Ninja or Dark Knight? Does the Duel Weild delay give more DOT than the WR variable?

[Apple Pie]

Who does more damage over time if all variables (ATT, STR) except weapons are the same, Ninja or Dark Knight?

If we ignore these variables and exclude their weapon skills, it is obvious that Ninjya does more damage. However, it's not a fair comparison and it doesn't mean NIN/WAR outperforms DRK/WAR in the real world.

I wanted to illustrate that Duel Wield can make 2 one-handers give more output than 1 two-hander.

I'm just wondering why you're doing this here on our RDM forum.

[modnar]

EH?! I AM A RED MAGE!!! Where else would I be?

Way to make me feel welcome as a Red Mage Apple Pie... /cry

Oh wait. Why I am doing this in the RDM forum. oh. not "what are you doing in the Red Mage forum!"

He heh e... I guess my insecurity about my newbness in the Mage domain showed itself...


Well, at the time I was only reading and was replying to comments as as those done by DrMrLordX

Originally posted by DrMrLordX
There's way too much rdm/nin promotion going on here.

Dual-wielding does not make you hit much more often.
...
is LVL 25 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.85

Nothing too impressive, especially considering the fact that rdm/nin will be whiffing most of the time against ITs anyway(just like the rest of us. Sorry, bud). EN-magic isn't going to be much more powerful in your hands because you won't be hitting that much more often. You can pile on haste gear with /equip macros, but ehh, then you're compromising yourself by taking away slots that could go for +acc gear instead(in your meleeset).
...
Dual-wielding, so far as I know, does not make you hit harder.

etc, etc.
I just wanted to present an argument defending Duel Weild. I saw some people dismiss it too harshly, so I thought I might just shed some light on it. I remember at the time I was thinking.. "This should go to the Ninja Forum!". But then I had to leave and I never got back to it. I did not even read a reply to my message until a few days ago. :p

[Apple Pie]

Well, I partially agree with DrMrLordX. The fact that we're only able to have DW2 isn't as impressive as the fact that we get Attack Bonus I, Berserk, DA, Warcry and Vorpal Blade with WAR sub.

I think the advantage of DW is,

1) 1 more hit is added to multi-hit WS
2) Stats bonuses of both weapons are added and applied to each weapon except for +5 En- spell damage of Enhancing Sword

Until we have access to Suppanomimi (-5%) at LV72, it doesn't enhance our melee ability a lot.

Of course, Utsusemi is super. The biggest reason I choose NIN sub is because I want Utsusemi I and II. RDM/NIN is something like NIN + SMN in that we have Phalanx and Stoneskin to back it up. We have Haste, too. No one can take well-equipped RDM/NIN down easily in Ballista.

[modnar]

/DRK

Guys, any information on a DRK subjob? Its pros and cons? It would be useful information on this thread.

[LordBiGGs]

there seem to be a lot of misconceptions about rdm in this post, at least about higher lvl rdm's.

1. convert creating large ammounts of hate - i've never once seem convert draw agro. dont think i've ever seen convert +divine seal + cure IV draw agro.

2. /nin debuffing - its incredibly hard lvl ninjitsu, at least for lower lvl nin's. so your nin sub probably wont even have his ninjitsu capped. even if it is capped, its capped for half your rdm's level. this means your debuffs are probably going to get resisted at a decent level.

3. rdm's meleeing in exp mobs - definitely no melee'ing against mobs with AoE's. your weapon probably won't be capped unless you've lvl'd it with another job or done a lot of skilling up. so you will miss constantly. when you do hit, you're going to do almost no damage. think pld's swing for no damage? we have higher str and attack than rdm's and our weapon is always capped, so...yea... after about 20 fights an rdm would get enough TP for spirits within which honestly always does lots of damage at max TP/HP, but hardly worth it.

4. damage/delay calculations - 20damage/200 delay does not equal 40damage/400 delay. for one thing the 40 damage will hit more than twice as hard even if str and attack is the same. also 400 delay isnt double 200 delay. there is a base delay to be added in. an easy example of base delay is an mnk with 0 delay fists. basically what i'm saying is 40damage/400 delay does more than 20damage/200delay duel wielded. even with dual wield II, same attack/acc/str the 40 damage/400 delay will still do more.

5. rdm's well rounded - solo'ing, yes rdm's are very well rounded. exp'ing there is nothing completely well rounded. closest thing to well rounded in an exp party is war/nin which can DD or tank. an rdm in an exp party is the debuffer/buffer. rdm's cast dispel and refresh mostly. they also can main heal or back up heal depending on the party set up and cast enfeebling. keep in mind when you level. red MAGE is a mage.

i fell rdm/nin is the best choice for solo'ing. my closest friends are a whm and blm, so when i play with them i would probably use rdm/war so i can keep hate. in parties rdm/whm and rdm/blm i feel are the best choices. smn is ok, but you dont need auto-refresh and rdm's dont have any real problems with mp.

as for drk sub job.

pro's: attack bonus (whoopee), aspir (could get it from blm)

con's: no use for last resort or soul eater solo or in party. very little-to mp/hp bonus. basically doesnt help you in anyway.