Rdm/war

[TMPikachu]

Originally posted by Altruist
The reason why RDM/War does not work:

B rated 1h sword

The reason why Taru War works

A+ Rated 2h axe

str/vit really don't matter when your weapon does half the damage, and hits half the time.

I already made that point, weapon skills and abilities usually outweigh stat bonuses.

I'll probably 'graduate' to ninja or drk to get a semi-magic/melee fix eventually, no worries on sullying the good name of red mages.

I've actually sort of figured out how to get down melee with the rdm quite well

every once in a while, I go level up my warrior and monk, then go back to sitting in the corner casting paralyze :D

I'm just wondering, how do dark knights deal with using magic? do they get yelled at for wasting time casting when they should be swinging?

[Jei]

Useful magics from /drk let's see would only be.... drain and Aspire. Those 2 won't be a good excuse to use /drk when you join a level party in any sense since you also get them from /blm plus your dark skill is so poorly low that you will drain very little HP/MP.

The main dark knights, their dark skill is very high. They can make a really good use out of those spells. Their absorbs are also helpful but that's about it... no other useful spells.


Stop thinking of yourself as a Rdm for a moment ok? Imagine yourself playing other jobs and making a party. So you play... Warrior? You make a party of

War Thf Mnk Brd Blm Rdm

Now tell me, if you have a choice between a Rdm/War, Rdm/Drk and Rdm/Blm, who are you going to chose to be your Rdm in your group?

The melee looking Rdm with /war /drk, or the /blm ; / ??

[TMPikachu]

If one of them's in my LS, them.

rdm/blm obviously brings more mp than a drk, of course.

I know a melee rdm is for fun, I'm just saying it's not a total mule of a combination.

[Shiia]

The people who sais having fun subbing a melee can do so freely... outside a PT. Then again, I myself did this very post and asked high level people how should a rdm function. They agreed you can melee but prioritizing your main job first. Subbing a melee, will somehow cripple your primary 2ndary function.

Tell me, you still want to have fun for yourself, even annoying the other 5 people for you not doing your role properly? I have quetioned many rdm if they still understand why people seeks rdm to their parties.

[TMPikachu]

Originally posted by Shiia
The people who sais having fun subbing a melee can do so freely... outside a PT. Then again, I myself did this very post and asked high level people how should a rdm function. They agreed you can melee but prioritizing your main job first. Subbing a melee, will somehow cripple your primary 2ndary function.

Tell me, you still want to have fun for yourself, even annoying the other 5 people for you not doing your role properly? I have quetioned many rdm if they still understand why people seeks rdm to their parties.

I play with my friends and brothers occasionally, they're just there to have fun. and I DO 'properly' do my role, debuffing, backup healing, just that in addition to that I do damage with a 12mp EN-spell. You make it sound like all melee rdm's are incapable of casting magic other than En-stone.
Again, I see it no worse than a taru taru warrior.

this is a rather useless arguement
I KNOW that a rdm/mage is more efficient in that role as a party, I'm only saying, if playing with friends and other people who you're just having 'fun' with, a rdm/melee is not a total gimp, it's probably not as bad as relying on a taru taru for a melee job.

[Shiia]

TMPikachu, thats perfectly fine. As long as you are playing for a fun factor with friend you can sub anything you want. People on that party know you so you should have no problem about it. However its different from a lvling up party with total strangers. Some people still doesn't understand the difference

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Altruist
The reason why RDM/War does not work:

B rated 1h sword

The reason why Taru War works

A+ Rated 2h axe

str/vit really don't matter when your weapon does half the damage, and hits half the time.

This is, of course, an exaggeration. A rdm with 1h sword will hit MORE often than a war with 2h axe - if only because he has half the delay. (Unless you're comparing Elvaan to Mithra, which isn't fair.)

Do you know what the difference between A+ rank and B rank is at level 40?

5 points. 123 vs 118.

At level 60 it increases to a massive, game breaking 7 points.

Skill rank alone can't make a big difference in melee abilities of different jobs until after level 60 when different ranks start to have significanly different skill caps. (+ and - in ranks have NO EFFECT AT ALL until after level 60)

What makes most of the difference is job-restricted equipment, job abilities (Berserk, Boost, Last Resort), jewelry/belts that are oriented toward boosting one type of stats. And the fact that you can't put a RDM/anything in the renkei because they have to sit between fights (even with refresh and ballad).

I often melee unless:
1. There are too few mages to begin with - then I pull out my wand and sit if I'm not needed casting.
2. There is a bard - then I stay back to help him get the right songs on the right people.
3. There are strong AE attacks or nasty AE status such as silence or petrify - I don't expose myself to that to deal 1/2 to 2/3 the damage of melee jobs (with En).

Other than those situations, I see no reason why I shouldn't contribute *some* damage, even though it isn't (and shouldn't be) as much as DRK, DRG, SAM, MNK, WAR. En spells ignore physical defense which is VERY useful; most monsters have at least one weakness which allows En spells to hit for full damage most of the time. As a mithra, I usually hit about as often as melee jobs (just not as hard).

Also, when I often have to party with RDM who use no more than 1/4 of their MP in a fight and then don't sit to save their TP, WAR/WHM, WAR/BLM, THF who won't pull (what exactly are THEY contributing?), and a ton of people with underleveled sub, I see no reason to feel bad about meleeing as long as I also take care of my primary responsibilities. I can't remember the last time someone died in a party I was in as RDM. Even when there is a disastrous overpull I usually make sure everyone gets out by Sleep, Gravity, or healing the person who is taking hits as we run.

Sorry this is a little long - this thread seems to come up about every 5 minutes, and some people seem to immediately take the position "if you ever pull out your weapon you should be shot". It's not that simple.

[Silverquick]

Originally posted by Karinya

5 points. 123 vs 118.

At level 60 it increases to a massive, game breaking 7 points
.

Yeah, but thats a huge effect.

A Blm doesn't have that much difference in actual Elemental skill than you do either, Yet he can land nukes much more consistently than you and for more damage on the same ones.

Partially its because the Blm has Higher Int that is given with each level of the class...

Guess what... so does a melee class. Even if you add a load of Dex all you're going to do is bring yourself even with their dex unbuffed.

The reason they hit so much better than you is because they are actually equipped class wise with skill and Dex additions built in each level.

And if melee skill and dex works like our Int/Mind with regards to Black and white Enfeebles...

Then the difference of 4 points means a good 10% difference in effectiveness.... maybe more

....and that in the skill comparison alone... not including the Dex additions class wise they get that you don't.

[Apple Pie]

A rdm with 1h sword will hit MORE often than a war with 2h axe - if only because he has half the delay. (Unless you're comparing Elvaan to Mithra, which isn't fair.)

True. However, over all damage isn't the same even though we have two weapons like these.

- Weapon A: D60, 400 Delay
- Weapon B: D30, 200 Delay

In the real world (when we go out leveling), weapon A isn't equal to weapon B. How the Damage is calculated isn't that simple unfortunately.

For instance, while a dark knight with Vassago's Scythe [D83] does 60 - 70 damage on IT mobs, a paladin with Gluttony Sword [D44] only does 20 - 25 damage on them. This doesn't include any food effects.

Food effects iventually determines our roles. I've never seen red mages eating Meat Mithkabob to get +21.9% attack though...

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Apple Pie

True. However, over all damage isn't the same even though we have two weapons like these.

- Weapon A: D60, 400 Delay
- Weapon B: D30, 200 Delay

In the real world (when we go out leveling), weapon A isn't equal to weapon B. How the Damage is calculated isn't that simple unfortunately.

Do you know any actual damage dealing formulae? Hard information would be better than the endless rounds of speculation and anecdotes.

For instance, while a dark knight with Vassago's Scythe [D83] does 60 - 70 damage on IT mobs, a paladin with Gluttony Sword [D44] only does 20 - 25 damage on them. This doesn't include any food effects.

This isn't necessarily difference in the weapon. DRK have higher STR, attack up job trait, and often have +attack gear.

Of course, a one handed weapon shouldn't do as much damage as a two handed weapon - otherwise it would be unfair to the two handed weapon users that they have to give up shields for no increase in attack power.

Certainly DRK will usually outdamage PLD. It'd be terrible if they didn't. DRK, DRG, WAR, SAM, MNK all outdamage PLD. Weapons may have something to do with this but they aren't the whole story - all of those jobs have offense increasing job traits or abilities and often wear offense increasing gear, as well as a different balance of stats.

It's certainly true that RDM melee power doesn't match that of jobs designed to deal damage in melee. However I don't think this is entirely the result of a small difference in skill cap or of weapon statistics - it is the combination of slightly lower skill, stats, job traits and abilities, EX/SP weapon skills, different weapons (usually 1-handed for RDM), different emphasis in supporting gear and foods that leads RDM melee to be less effective overall. You can't point to any one of those factors and say "This is why RDM can't melee as well."

[Vestas]

As tired as this argument is it breaks down this way in my humble opinion (and that's pretty humble!). There are two kinds of players:

1) Those who care about minute details and min/max'ing

2) Those who don't*


* Number 2 is also known as "Those who just have fun"

MMOG's are usually dominated by the first. These are the folks that attempt to minimize diversity in a game and boil it down to the single most effective combination to succeed. There's nothing wrong with this per se. These folks are rarely wrong and the "templates" they come up with are often the best in the game for being the most effective.

The net result is that everyone then assumes that's the "only" way to play (who wants to be purposely less effective afterall?). I'm surprised that Taru Taru tanks are still in FFXI. But then Gnome Warriors were still around in EQ for the first two years. Eventually though, even those will drop from the game as the power players (and by trickle down the rest of the game world) assume that maximum hp numbers is what matters.

The second set of people however just play around with what they think is fun, cool, or keeps them interested. Occaisionally they look to justify their decisions but in reality there's no way they're going to overcome the amount of player research achieved by the first group.

Neither is right or wrong. The question always comes down to what does the player base care about more. None of this matters between friends, who will always be accepting of each other. It only really matters for someone who doesn't have a regular group or is trying to get into a powerful LS that expects its players to be a certain way.

The choice inevitably is in the players hands. Me personally? I'm a bit of both. I firmly believe that the best template in the world does not make a bad player good and that a good player can make the most of the worst template.

[Apple Pie]

Do you know any actual damage dealing formulae?

Actual Damage = Base Damage (fixed) * X (random)

Base Damage = 10D/9 + ([your STR] - [mob's VIT]) / 5

- It is "D" of your weapon when [your STR] is equal to [mob's VIT]

X (0.0 - 2.4):

- Depends on [your ATK] vs [mob's DEF]
- There are six zones you belong to (0.0-0.4, 0.4-0.8, 0.8-1.1, 1.1-1.5, 1.5-1.8, 1.8-2.4)

Therefore, unless we have exactly the same ATK and STR, Weapon A [D60, 400 Delay] isn't the same as Weapon B [D30, 200 Delay].

What is more, even though we have the same ATK and STR, they are not the same when we fight against VT or stronger mobs having higher VT than our STR. Weapon A always does better because of how base damage is calculated.

e.g) suppose ([your STR] - [mob's VIT]) / 5 = -2

Base damage of A is 58 while that of B is 28. 58 > 28 x 2

P.S.
Great thanks to those guys in Shitaraba's verifying thread researching this for two years.

[Jei]

wow apple you know a lot of those equations any other interesting equation? I'd like to know like elemental magic resist rate calculation.

[Tsunare]

But then Gnome Warriors were still around in EQ for the first two years

Acctually, just a point about EQ...

Race doesn't matter squat once you're in the ubers, all your stats are more than capped anyway, so a gnome warrior is just as good as any other race except for a few minor details (ogre frontal stun, the slam ability, etc) however those minor details can largely be evened out with AA points.

So, in EQ you could be any race you wanted to be for your class and still be optimal in the end.

[Apple Pie]

There are already a lot of things clarified there and some are on Official Guide for Expert.

I can't find the log of Shitaraba discussing magic resist stuffs but I believe it's already found...

BTW, the equation I posted doesn't apply to MNK. There's another one for them but in summary, STR has stronger effects on their damage.