Ranger/Ninja

[imac2much]

I did misunderstand you, so that was my fault. But I don't even know why we're arguing now, since we're *agreeing with eachother*. :p

My point:
Even without SAM sub, you will gain TP faster than the THF or whatever. As another rule of thumb, most RNG do not just blindly spam sidewinder... they wait until the other participant in renkei is ready (Zerked SW -> Zerked Fui Dancing/Viper is great). Since you are gaining TP *faster* than the THF like we agreed, even without SAM sub, you should have 125-150% TP by the time the THF has 100% anyway. Then you usually have to wait a few seconds for SA+TA to get ready, so you should definitely have 150% by then.

Basically, even if the RNG isn't consciously thinking "I need to wait til 150% TP before I use SW", he will reach that number even without SAM sub. That's why I consider SAM sub useless... what, so you'll have 200% TP at time of renkei (and do considerably less damage)? Or to meditate 60% TP every 3 minutes... why? It's not like you should fire off random Sidewinders... =\

[FeralisCallidus]

Basically, even if the RNG isn't consciously thinking "I need to wait til 150% TP before I use SW", he will reach that number even without SAM sub. That's why I consider SAM sub useless... what, so you'll have 200% TP at time of renkei (and do considerably less damage)? Or to meditate 60% TP every 3 minutes... why? It's not like you should fire off random Sidewinders... =\

With a damn good PLD, RNG/SAM is better than RNG/WAR and here's why:

Every 5 minutes (or six, depending how you care to time the meditates) you will be able to insert an extra sidewinder after an initial sidewinder chain. Saved for a chain 5, this could be the difference between getting and losing 100+xp~

Also, i've heard that DRKs get PT insanely fast post 60 (Because of the nature of guillotine being 4xhit). I ~imagine~ that Samurai sub will help the Ranger gain TP fast enough to keep up his 150TP:100TP ratio of RNGTP:DRKTP.

Also, if a PT with a PLD has a godly THF (i.e. THF/WAR [trip/double attack] with insane gear that gets TP about as fast as ranger...), and is fighting ~ideal~ mobs, samurai sub will allow the Ranger and Thief to renkei almost twice per battle (pure speculation at this point).

[imac2much]

After 65, DRK/THF is generally preferred over DRK/WAR due to the new damage of their lvl 225 WS (changed in a patch a few months ago). These are now insanely powerful, plus since they are only 2 or 1 hit, they are augmented by fuidama a LOT even with nerfed fuidama of THF sub. I've never PT'ed with RNG post 65, but I would *assume* that you would use Arching Arrow -> Fui Spinning Slash at that point. Arching arrow isn't inherently inaccurate like SW, and extra TP only increase crit chance. Yes, AA is weaker than SW, but the damage from the level 3 skillchain bonus alone should outdamage SW (1k-1.5k+ damage with a strong fui spinning slash or cross reaper).

I think experience is more important than theories. I have never partied with a RNG/SAM, so my opinions on them are just theories, so everyone please take them with a grain of salt. It is just how I believe they rank up there, but if they ARE better, I may definitely be wrong. If you have actually used /SAM in this method, and you've outdamaged other /WAR or yourself as /WAR, then that is very interesting. Let us know if it keeps up at high levels when lots of game mechanics totally change (due to level 3 skillchains and such).

However, experience wise, /WAR is much better than /NIN at my level... and that's really all I was trying to say in the first place.

[FeralisCallidus]

If the RNG was using Arching Arrow instead, then that would require him to save 50~ less TP than normal.

Therefor, by this scenario... if you have a good PLD:

lv65~ [ where Arching Arrow -> Cross Reaper + fui is popular ]

Lets assume this is chain 5 (And meditate just became available for the third time):

[Pull] RA >> Mob
[TP 15 (13+storeTP2)]
>-Back at camp, normal PT hate control crap and debuffs happen-<
[Berserk should be on since the beginning of chain 4/end of chain 3]
[Sharpshot]
[Hunter's Prelude]
[Mages ballad II (so useful, I know, but the tank is a PLD, the other attacker is a DRK. And I really don't need anything other than Prelude... so =P]
[Barrage]
RA >> Mob
[TP 90 (13+2/hit for 5 hits)]
--> Assuming two dagger strikes landed in there...
Sidewinder/Blast Arrow >> Mob (If sharpshot and prelude are still active, i'd chance it with Sidewinder.)
[TP 15 (WS)]
Meditate >> me
[TP 75]
RA >> Mob
RA >> Mob
[TP 105]
(((( Depending how fast the DRK in the PT gains TP, I would either fire off another sidewinder/blast arrow or wait for him to catch up at this point. Most likely, though, the DRK isn't very far along (since he's been casting his spells)...so... ))))

Sidewinder/Blast Arrow >> Mob
RA >>
RA >>
RA >>
Normal Course of Battle >>
[Mob should be hugging the RNG, who has Earthen Ward and Aerial Armor on]
--> [ Cross Reaper (PLDfui) >> Mob ]
Arching Arrow >> Mob
--> [ Light Damage]

~One Dead Mob~

[lvsocom]

Originally posted by qweezy
Rng/War does a good deal more damage, but they need a good pt to work in or they'll die alot. Rng/Nin is much more flexible, they can work in any pt but damage isn't great.

This man has it right on, imo. I'm lvl44rng/13nin and occasionally I sub the 30 war I have, right now.. Unfortunately, there is almost no bards on when I goto lvl, so I'm stuck using Nin. Judging fromt eh experience of you 55+rng's I'll definetely give /WAR another try around then. Right now, barrage is my best dmg attack, so keeping it as consistant as possible (from /NIN) is a major reason I use it. Sidewinder and Arching Arrow will probably change that.

Another thing is I use ninja to show the stupid ppl out there that thing 'elvaan rng's can't hit anything', that they are wrong. I usually miss 1/7 shots on flies lvling in CN right now, and the mithra rng I had in a pt recently hit just about the same (rng/nin as well on her). Difference being I was hitting for another 6-7dmg per shot. Not big, but with the hit ratio's the same it was kinda cool.

Greysenn;
I just did a bcnm40 with a VERY experienced group last night (one of the guys does 2-3 a day with various other pt's) and utsusemi saved my ass bigtime. We had, Elvaan rng/nin (me), hume rng/war, taru whm/sum, hume brd/whm, galka pld/war, taru blm/rdm. I couldnt see how often the hume was hitting since I filter alot of stuff in bcnm (missed pt attacks to name one), but I could see his dmg.. I was doing about 6-15dmg more on the madra's until he zerked and he was doing about 10-20 more then me. Just wasn't pretty when the black madra landed a crit on him w/ zerk on. :X My bow crits were fairly good tho, landing 165's about once a mob. I saw a few 170 crits (I use #'s over the head to show dmg) which I'll take a guess and say where the other rng's from zerk. Basically, it was even. I hit for a consistant 130 on the white mandra's where as every 2 out of 5 minutes during the fight he was landing 110dmg hits.

[FeralisCallidus]

Iv~

At higher levels, you'll notice that Zerk helps a LOT more than at lower levels.

vs. Flying monster~

Callidus's ranged attack hits BlahBlahBlah for 160 points of damage (pulling numbers out of my ass. If not 160, then higher)

Callidus uses Berserk

Callidus's ranged attack hits BlahBlahBlah for 195+ points of damage

Mmm. Damage.

Zerk lasts 3 minutes, too.