E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

[Spider-Dan]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

For those rangers who really want to step beyond mediocrety.. /War and the relevant gearing for it is the way to go.
And yes - being able to do two weaponskills in a burn party is mediocrety.

Funny that you say that, seeing as how the RNG setup that can do 2-3 WS per mob in a burn party (KC RNG) absolutely destroys any standard RNG setup.

/Nin serve's it's purpose, yet you will always be left behind by those who can count their shots and lands consistent WS's.
For those who say they die too much - learn to count your shots.. I did when I was new, and you should too.

What does counting your shots have to do with anything? I can count to zero just fine, thank you. Yet if I fire a 'zerked slug (without having fired ANY shots), and the mob doesn't immediately die, it's pretty much guaranteed that I will shortly. It has nothing do to with the number of shots I've fired, and everything to do with how much HP the mob has remaining.

Fire Staff + /War will be the party member who feeds the mob less TP. Who drops out the bigs numbers and who reminds us all to step up a gear.

Fire Staff + /WAR will also be the party member firing one WS for every 3 mobs, which doesn't exactly help keep the chain going.

Rng/War is the optimum choice if you are capable of understanding the hate line. You can deal far for damage in relation to tp given to the mob. /Nin is for those who rely on others to get to 75.
Sorry if this seems unfairly said, but when I was a newbie.. Ranger had to learn to manage the line, and deal great damage... not be mediocre.

Why is it that RNG/WARs think that /NIN and /SAM don't have to manage hate?

EVERY RNG SJ has to manage hate. The difference is the threshold:

- /NIN needs to manage their hate so that they lose hate before the sixth shadow
- /SAM needs to manage their hate so that they lose hate before the ~third shadow
- /WAR needs to manage their hate so that they don't take aggro, period

If you play /NIN and do not specifically aim to manage your hate so that you are regularly losing shadows, then you aren't doing it right. Period.

The main difference between /WAR and other SJs (in a rapid kill situation) is that because of their frailty, /WAR has to sit on TP waiting for the mob to reach a point where it's safe to kill. So while I'm sitting on 150% TP as /WAR waiting for the mob to reach a point where I can fire a slug without committing suicide, as /NIN or /SAM I would have already fired a slug at ~110% and have ~50% TP built towards my next slug.

[VZX]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

The only place I've ever been where /WAR is effective is BC40 Worm's turn
because :
- ga will wipe your shadows anyway
- you will spent 30-40% of your time killing the bigger worm, which must be done ranged. no melee at all

[Spinnthrift]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

Funny that you say that, seeing as how the RNG setup that can do 2-3 WS per mob in a burn party (KC RNG) absolutely destroys any standard RNG setup.


What does counting your shots have to do with anything? I can count to zero just fine, thank you. Yet if I fire a 'zerked slug (without having fired ANY shots), and the mob doesn't immediately die, it's pretty much guaranteed that I will shortly. It has nothing do to with the number of shots I've fired, and everything to do with how much HP the mob has remaining.

*For those who want to read the rebuttal to someone using a Kraken Club as an attempt to validate a flawed arguement.. skip to the bottom.

That is more based on party setup.. last party I was in with a Rng/War.. the party felt like we were all sleeping. Except at the end of it we'd been making roughly 10 - 12k an hour just having a play about.. most of the time we spent chatting to each other. Then again, we had a Pld tank and a Thf.. me securing hate.

Oh, if we'd had Anniversary/Emp Rings going - that would have been up to 14-16k an hour.. but Anniversary weren't out then, and my Emp wasn't recharged. Maybe not amazing, but nothing to sneeze at.

Fire Staff + /WAR will also be the party member firing one WS for every 3 mobs, which doesn't exactly help keep the chain going.


Why is it that RNG/WARs think that /NIN and /SAM don't have to manage hate?

EVERY RNG SJ has to manage hate. The difference is the threshold:

- /NIN needs to manage their hate so that they lose hate before the sixth shadow
- /SAM needs to manage their hate so that they lose hate before the ~third shadow
- /WAR needs to manage their hate so that they don't take aggro, period

If you play /NIN and do not specifically aim to manage your hate so that you are regularly losing shadows, then you aren't doing it right. Period.

Now - maybe it's just me, but when they 'fixed' (read that as nerfed) ranged weapons to function better at distance... if a mob is causing you to lose shadows, you are losing your accuracy and damage. If causing yourself to cause less damage and be less accurate is the correct way to play, I don't desire to be correct (at least not in your eyes). Period.

Ranger is not all that far removed from Black Mage. You don't see good Black Mages trying to get the mob in their face. You see the tiptoe the line finely.

The main difference between /WAR and other SJs (in a rapid kill situation) is that because of their frailty, /WAR has to sit on TP waiting for the mob to reach a point where it's safe to kill. So while I'm sitting on 150% TP as /WAR waiting for the mob to reach a point where I can fire a slug without committing suicide, as /NIN or /SAM I would have already fired a slug at ~110% and have ~50% TP built towards my next slug.

This is a valid point, you definately can gain more tp, but in quick kill parties - which don't necessarily have to be tp burning (skillchaining with a balanced party will still net the same results, you just have to be able to work better together...), a Ranger who can finish off a mob with a big move, will still be able to gain the necessary tp's to fire again. Also, even with lots of R.Acc, a lot of the good Rangers I know, have explained they prefer to have slightly more than the minimum TP as Sidewinder/Slugshot is moderately innacurate with 100tp. So much so, they're often happier getting to 150 or so before releasing. But they also say they can do that easily before a mob reaches half health.

This goes back to the older thought of school regarding counting shots.

Now - your point about a Kraken Club Ranger is cute.. really cute. I mean.. *every* ranger has one of those. Like the Ridill/K Club Dark Knights. They're part of the AF obviously. What you're not mentioning is that most people don't have those, and with weapons like that - that go beyond 'normal' - the standard conventions get thrown out of the window. It's like my LS mate who has a Mandau.. he does things other Thf can't.. go figure, but I'd not rely on his weapons being available to everyone's setups.

It's a common phrase called "The exception that proves the rule.." and if you're basis of an arguement is around a Kraken Club, well - that's really cute, and I won't bother reposting even if you decide you need to 'win' at the internet. Most people who have the top end weaponry - won't read forums to find out how to play, as they've already made their own rules and style.

What I've posted - is information that people can use who haven't got Relic Bow, K Club, Ridill, etc... and while you're arguement that says Krakening Rangers who Kraken Post do more damage... it's not for general use.. unless you want to give me a K Club and I'll be a Kraken spamming Thf and change the rules for all Thf too. You know.. if I had a Ridill and K.Club.. I wouldn't use daggers on my Thf.. unless I had a Mandau.. and I'd spam other WS's.. and so on. Be sensible now.

Peace.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

That is more based on party setup.. last party I was in with a Rng/War.. the party felt like we were all sleeping. Except at the end of it we'd been making roughly 10 - 12k an hour just having a play about.. most of the time we spent chatting to each other. Then again, we had a Pld tank and a Thf.. me securing hate.

Oh, if we'd had Anniversary/Emp Rings going - that would have been up to 14-16k an hour.. but Anniversary weren't out then, and my Emp wasn't recharged. Maybe not amazing, but nothing to sneeze at.

I probably wouldn't brag too much about "10-12k" in the TAU era. Double that and you might have something to talk about.

Just saying.

Now - maybe it's just me, but when they 'fixed' (read that as nerfed) ranged weapons to function better at distance... if a mob is causing you to lose shadows, you are losing your accuracy and damage.

And yet you are gaining damage (and TP) from melee attacks; damage that otherwise would not exist. Funny, that.

Ranger is not all that far removed from Black Mage. You don't see good Black Mages trying to get the mob in their face. You see the tiptoe the line finely.

RNG is nothing like BLM; trying to play it like one is your own mistake. We don't have to manage MP, and they won't have ninjutsu as an option. Ranged attacks and WSes don't get interrupted when you have aggro. We can't cure ourselves. The list goes on...

This is a valid point, you definately can gain more tp, but in quick kill parties - which don't necessarily have to be tp burning (skillchaining with a balanced party will still net the same results, you just have to be able to work better together...), [...]

Uhh, skillchains in meripo? No. And it has nothing to do with how good you work together; it has to do with BLM, pure and simple.

Without a BLM, there's no point in aiming for SCs (other than simply completing incidental ones), as the SC damage from commonly used meripo WS is frequently resisted anyway.

With a BLM, SC+MB now becomes worthwhile, but there is no mechanism for BLM to be able to maintain MP and still carry their own weight. Meripo parties simply kill too quickly for BLM to have time to rest.

[...]a Ranger who can finish off a mob with a big move, will still be able to gain the necessary tp's to fire again.

Also, even with lots of R.Acc, a lot of the good Rangers I know, have explained they prefer to have slightly more than the minimum TP as Sidewinder/Slugshot is moderately innacurate with 100tp. So much so, they're often happier getting to 150 or so before releasing. But they also say they can do that easily before a mob reaches half health.

All of the preceding is ridiculous theorycraft. No, it is not hard to land 100 TP slugs in meripo (save the two extremely evasive mobs that everyone is aware of); no, you can't gain enough TP (via ranged only) to WS a mob if you just killed the last one with a WS in any sort of decent party; no, you most certainly cannot build 150% TP before a mob gets to 50% life.

You seem to be speaking in a lot of hypotheticals. Are you relaying someone else's opinion? Because whoever is giving you RNG advice doesn't seem to know WTF they are talking about.

This goes back to the older thought of school regarding counting shots.

So let's talk about counting shots.

E-bow takes ~7.3 seconds per shot and returns 14.8 TP/hit.
Assuming 90% accuracy, that means that you need to fire 10 shots (after a WS) to reach ~150 TP... or, 73 seconds (this is if you are perfectly consistent with your CTRL+D and never have to move into song range, etc.).

If it takes your party 73 seconds to get a mob down to half life, what business do you have criticizing someone else's kill speed?

[Spinnthrift]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

Firstly - I'm not 75 Rng. I'm a Thf. I said.. that WS'ing twice from having fired that many shots isn't something to boast about.. which you were the one who leapt on...

Had you comprehended the post that said...:

Pull, fire some shots, fire some more shots, WS, change to bow, fire some more shots, Barrage, WS.. and go pull again... you might have understood my original post. Go back and read the thread instead of telling us all how K.Clubs win the internet.

As I said.. it was a sleepy party, and not a meripo. Just mooching about killing stuff and chatting. Not everyone is 75 Rng. Not everyone is HNMLS'd to the eyeballs. Meripo isn't everything. And I've never said I was a 75 Ranger... please.. go find where I did.

So pre-meripo, when you do need that kind of stuff to worry about... my arguements stand. Because the post I was referring to - wasn't a 75 fully merited ranger.

As I said.. be sensible.

Peace out buddy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

I don't feel I have anything to add to this thread that would make it more absurd than it already has become. So, I will just add these two things:

lolKrakenClub - because all RNGs have one, right?
lolmeritpo - because meritpo is from which all playstyle is devised, right? Meritpo as an example is only an example of disillusionment.

That said, going back to the OP, both are good, just get them as you can. But at least get Selene Bow when you're able to use it.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

Yes, I read the original post before I replied. While you did arrive at the correct conclusion (switching weapons in the middle of a fight is inefficient), you arrived at that conclusion completely by accident. You seem to be under the impression that /WAR is the choice of the skilled, veteran RNGs, when in fact, skilled veteran RNGs are explaining to you that /WAR is usually a useless e-peen sub.

As for KC, I was going to let it drop (seeing as how your response made it clear that you obviously aren't a RNG and can't really be expected to know what's going on with KC RNG), but since there seems to be more than one person saying "lol I can't believe you mentioned KC"....

KC RNG is a well-known high-performance solution that any informed RNG should aspire to. Any knowledgeable RNG should, therefore, be wary of making blanket statements like "meleeing is for n00bs" or "you should never be firing more than one WS in a fight" or even "/WAR is the way to step beyond mediocrity".

Had you just been making those statements on their own, that might have been one thing, but since you felt it necessary to criticize another, I felt that your statements needed to be held to a higher standard. KC was merely one of an avalanche of inaccuracies and oversights in your post.

If you want to talk about non-meripo, I'm fine with that, too. Everything I said about holding on to TP still applies (unless you're planning to SATAWS it back onto the tank, in which case you really need to be standing at point blank anyway). We can also talk about the MP savings that /NIN provides the party; every hit that I absorb is a hit that the tank doesn't take (and in the case of a NIN tank, that means they get to swap out +evasion for +damage when they don't have to focus on dodging every hit).

[Omni]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

so... anyone know if dmg calculations were altered with the last ranged attack/distance update?

i feel my o-bow to be stronger than usual. on trolls, my o-bow was putting up identical numbers as my s-bow.

yes, i'm trying to steer this circular debate else where b/c heh well, its circular.

[Caspian]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

No, Omni, I haven't heard of any changes made to the calculation, other than all your gear, food, ja's, songs, and such are added after the fact now, so maybe all the +r. atlk. from O-bow makes more of an impact than it once did.
It is closer, but I still notice that slugwinders do more with my Sbow than my Obow.

[VZX]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

I really wanted to know what the heck is really going on with the calculation from recent patch

My guess is fSTR2 reduction based on distance, since from my experience in sky, there are only certain numbers that pop up when i fight something (ulli and byakko) and that number difference is very small. So my guess was raw damage penalty -> fSTR2 penalty

but who knows ¯\(º_o)/¯

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: E.Bow Vs Selene Bow

I have noticed somewhat that Obow has been even with my damage elsewhere at times, especially so when acid bolts are applied. In Caedarva I couldn't tell you the difference between using Obow or anything, really. Mamool Ja are a different story and I usually go for the Bow on those. Trolls its usually Obow.