Rng/brd???

[Icemage]

Re: Rng/brd???

I think its one thing to level a sub you don't like and another to sub something that has no long-term benefit for the main job. Yes, I know Dan would sing the praises of a BRD sub at every level of the game depending on the job, but we're talking rather small returns in contrast to BRD main can do at full power.

As I mentioned above, I am levelling a handful of jobs that won't do anything for me end-game. /MNK sub doesn't do squat for THF beyond level 35, and is only so-so for WAR beyond 24.

I'm doing exactly what you're talking about - levelling jobs that offer me nothing in long term, but give me an edge short-term.

Have you ever actually used a Bard sub at low levels? It's not nearly as horrible as you think. Sure, Paeon is weak, but a weak buff is still better than no buff. Considering that most jobs don't even get a job trait or ability when subbed until at least level 20/10, that's a whole lot of levels where /BRD gets you something tangible that other subjobs don't.

For Corsair, i'd never touch /BRD. If I want to be a refresh monkey, there are two other jobs more effective and consistant about it and I could go back to them if I really wanted to (I don't). Additionally, some jobs to have to consider subjobs for defensive abilites. Building a job for pure support on buff... well, enjoy losing your EXP. Building a job for pure melee output that makes more sense. But if you want to go and be BRD/COR, COR/BRD or BLM/BRD... you just have "fun" with that. For defensive ability, /WHM and /NIN are hard to dispute.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting COR/BRD at higher levels. We're talking about situational use of subjobs in levels where other subjobs simply don't offer much of anything useful (particularly in the pre-20 level range).

I'll level a WHM sub to benefit both my RNG and COR for endgame situations and I'm not looking forward to it. Its not fun for me, its a tedious chore, but I'm well aware of the benefits. I'm capable of playing full support if I want to, but if you're asking me to sub /WHM for EXP or merit you can kindly kiss my ass. Subjobs may be situational, but when I pay out the nose to level, I'll sub what I want to. That's my "situation." I'm not gonna touch /WHM till I have marksmanship and MP merits at a level that is satisfactory for me.

Again, we're talking about a level range that is pretty low. You make it sound like gettin Bard to level ~15 is some ridiculously onerous chore. For what it's worth, I've never seen any ranger at level 75 sub WHM except to solo. Just because you, personally, would not want to do this does not mean it doesn't offer something tangible should a player wish to do so. We're not talking about personal preference here; we're discussing potential effectiveness.

[...]I never said anything about subbing /THF before it was useful, merely that its good to get /THF done as a sub before taking SAM all the way. Getting /THF done early is a more effective use of my time than experimenting with a subjob I won't use long-term.

That's a BIG difference from what you assumed I meant.

I don't think there was any assumption made except from what you posted:

We all know subjobs are situational, but there's a difference between situational and a complete waste of time. Since I'm levelling SAM right now, perhaps I should level SMN alongside it since Carbuncle would make a reliable skillchain partner pre-30, right? OR I could prep THF instead and have it ready to go with WAR, NIN and RNG later on.

By this statement you imply that someone wishing to be BLU/THF should obviously ignore other useful subs like /WAR and /NIN because they obviously don't work very well later on and are such a complete waste of time, particularly when /THF is a completely horrid subjob pre-30. Whether this was your intent or not, that is what you implied, and that's what I believe Spider-Dan was responding to.

I find this thread of logic paradoxical in the extreme; weren't you the one taking me to task for supposedly being overly focused on end-game not too long ago?


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Rng/brd???

Please stop shoveling words into people's mouths. Let's take a step back here.

Have you ever actually used a Bard sub at low levels? It's not nearly as horrible as you think. Sure, Paeon is weak, but a weak buff is still better than no buff. Considering that most jobs don't even get a job trait or ability when subbed until at least level 20/10, that's a whole lot of levels where /BRD gets you something tangible that other subjobs don't

Its nice for 1-10, but if you are levelling melee, particularly RNG, WAR, BLU, DRK, BST or SAM, you're hopefully using the same DEF armor. The /WAR sub for these jobs is going to be useful for Provoke alone and you'll be able to take the hits better at that level than you would be able to later on.

And if the player wants to experiment with /BRD, that's fine, but keep in mind not everyone in your PT is going to be happy with that, they don't want their time wasted. For the early levels a NIN main is going to want people to spot him as a sub-tank and virtually every melee has the DEF in armor to do just that at these low levels, even RDM and BLU. So /WAR is extremely viable from 10 onward.

/MNK will get you Boost at level 10, adding roughly the same attack bonus (and possibly more between pulls) than the first Minuet. /BLU also would enable you do have some early offensive and defensive spells at your disposal. At 20 /DRG for a little TP boost once a minute.

Keep in mind /BRD is one song, less than half the power of what it would be as BRD main and that you cannot use instruments. As a result, all buff bonuses BRD would enjoy are solely determined by singing skill, which is halved now.

Paeon is worthless in combat, but its decent for downtime, but that's where it starts and ends for Paeon. Minuet is just as marginal, possibly less useful, than Boost until you get past 20-ish. Of all the buffs, I'd have to say Madrigal would be the most useful of them all.

But what was my initial point before we arrived at this tangent debate? Oh right, it was that its a total waste of time to use something like /BRD if you don't have the the other subs ready for when they are "more useful."

Let's say you do have a NIN sub ready. It's not useful til RNG is 24. At that point you'll get the majority of a /NIN sub's benefit. But if you're not going to at least level WAR to 37 as a subjob, you're doing yourself a disservice by playing around with a BRD sub just to get to 24 and switch over to NIN. /WAR is damn good from 30 onward and its nice to have it at your disposal from that point on.

There are a lot of people - particularly within the Alla community - that will say /WAR is only viable after 70. Um... no. They're confusing /WAR with when STR/Attack build is most viable, which, /WAR is great for RNG at 30 onward when you get Berzerk. All that /WAR needs keep in mind is to not spam weaponskills and shots and to walk the hate like just like a good BLM would.

Anyway, after the recent update, /SAM has once again become a viable sub. If you're after Hasso and the TP traits/abilities, you're good to go at level 60 so long as you use Fire Staff. Seigan it at 70, offering an alternative to Utsusemi. You may not see the returns on levelling SAM for a long time in your RNG career, but its another option to have and worth working toward early, just like NIN or WAR.

I'm talking about long-term benefits. Eat your vegetables first and then you can enjoy dessert. But what you're suggesting is to eat candy before the meal, which makes getting to dessert more difficult than it has to be. Playing around with /BRD when you don't have /WAR, /NIN or /SAM ready for later only postpones the inevitable levelling of at least two of those subjobs. Get 'em done and over with.

So, are we now done with this pointless Devil's Advocate nonsense? Really.

[Cometgreen]

Re: Rng/brd???

People can play however they want, and failing to have a sub leveled that they're not using right now does not affect their game play. If someone wants to go the very slow route and go RNG/BRD to 20, stop to get WAR and NIN to 15, take RNG to 30, stop again, etc, it's their choice, and it doesn't make them lesser players. And it certainly doesn't affect the viability of BRD as a sub pre-20, which is now the issue at hand.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Rng/brd???

Yes, I know Dan would sing the praises of a BRD sub at every level of the game depending on the job, but we're talking rather small returns in contrast to BRD main can do at full power.

Why do you keep comparing /BRD to a BRD main? It's irrelevant, since we're not talking about replacing a BRD main with a BRD SJ.

[Here was a large section that I had typed out replying to the majority of OMG's post, which was an unabashed anti-COR/BRD rant. However, this is mightily irrelevant to this forum, and more importantly, has already been covered in the COR forum. So let's stay on topic, k?]

I never said anything about subbing /THF before it was useful, merely that its good to get /THF done as a sub before taking SAM all the way. Getting /THF done early is a more effective use of my time than experimenting with a subjob I won't use long-term.

That's a BIG difference from what you assumed I meant.

I'm talking about long-term benefits. Eat your vegetables first and then you can enjoy dessert. But what you're suggesting is to eat candy before the meal, which makes getting to dessert more difficult than it has to be. Playing around with /BRD when you don't have /WAR, /NIN or /SAM ready for later only postpones the inevitable levelling of at least two of those subjobs. Get 'em done and over with.

It would help if you would say what you mean, instead of hoping everyone else can read your mind. In this case, the disconnect is because you apparently take it for granted that leveling subjobs is an either/or decision, where someone can choose to level a useful low-level subjob, or a useful high-level subjob, but not both.

This is an assumption that I do not agree with. But more to the point, it's completely irrelevant to this thread. The OP was not asking which SJs he should level, but which SJs he should use.

If you want to make an argument that it's not worth the time to level the most effective subjob for a specific situation, I suggest you make a thread about it. It certainly has nothing to do with this thread.

[Lmnop]

Re: Rng/brd???

5 days later (actually 2 weeks later, hello holidays) I thought I'd like to share some input that has very little to do with Rng/brd:

Dan did actually misunderstand a few of Omg's points, though they weren't exactly clear. No reason to get upset over it. Just clarify. Oh, but wait, every time he says something you shove words in his mouth.

If I have this straight: Omg was saying (very ambiguously) that these threads are usually geared towards people avoiding leveling the jobs they need leveled. Yeah, you're right, but if you stop thinking on that and just think about "in a perfect world with every sub in the game leveled," you see that Dan wants to look at practicals of what job is best when. How about that, a misunderstanding?

Continuing...

Yes, I know Dan would sing the praises of a BRD sub at every level of the game depending on the job, but we're talking rather small returns in contrast to BRD main can do at full power.

No, he wouldn't. In fact he'd specifically say (and did) that BRD sub is situational, best only at certain levels. That's what's known as the opposite of what you said.

For Corsair, i'd never touch /BRD...

yeah, good thing no one brought up COR/brd. Because S-E specifically made Cor not to function well in any combination with Brd (with the exception of the possibility of getting a 2 + 1 combo but I never finished the other thread to see if it's true or not).

So, are we now done with this pointless Devil's Advocate nonsense? Really.

Sorry. If it helps, I really like your Sig.

I also had a lot more quotes and random bickering originally. But I don't think Kitten did anything really wrong to justify my being an asshole.

----------------------------

I realize this post is mostly irrelevant, but I really want to point out one thing:

Kitten, I understand where you're coming from. Don't worry about needing to respond back to "you know who," because most people on these forums know good and well how much of a troll the person is. lol

Do I still get warning points or punished otherwise for using the F word on these forums still? Because surely this warrants some.

Spider-Dan is one of the most unbiased posters I've ever read. He doesn't even bother to respond to flames directed at him. To me, that seems like the least Troll-ish behavior you can have. If being logical is trolling, I need more troll friends.

But no matter where he goes, his blunt logic is met with defensive posters who lash out to protect their own opinions. Wtg humanity. Way to hang Astronomers for telling the King that the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth. Wtg.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Rng/brd???

Again, if you want to be a ranged attacker that buffs as a job you want to take to the top, then Ranger is not for you. You're looking for Corsair.

Again, if you want to be experimental, be experiemental in a static party. Don't be experimental in a pick-up party unless they consent to it. It wastes your time and everyone else's when you force a worthless subjob on the PT. Really why do /BRD if other subs haven't been prepped? Its benefit is for a span of levels you can get through in a few days,.

Its cute to have paeon and madrigal to 30, but its cheating yourself if you have to go back and level /WAR and /NIN anyway. Progressing RNG is just pushed even further off as a result of using a short-term subjob.

Now, IF you have all the other EXP subs done and want to try /BRD, I don't see the harm if your PT is willing to go with it. You're not cheating yourself or wasting any time in doing so because other things are prepared. But in general, questions from people like the OP aren't polling to see if its really effective, but to see if they can use it to get around other subjobs.

Now, enlighten me as to the flaws behind any of this reasoning and why we should continue to senselessly play Devil's Advocate. /BRD is not useful to RNG long-term so why even waste time on it when 1-20 can be over and done within a couple days for any job? Just to say its viable? Really?

[cakemeat]

Re: Rng/brd???

I really dont know why ppl bitch so much about subjobs.

If you think about the mathmatics of it. the actual level barely offers you much. its the skills/abilities that really do anything.

SO if you want to give everyone in your party an extra 10 or whataver attack points (minuet) instead of having yourself an extra stat or two.. DO IT

fuck subjobs is all i gotta say. there is a reason that a level 25 cannot take down a level 50 job. its math.

[Lmnop]

Re: Rng/brd???

Just to say its viable?

yes

Would there be any cool and actual good benefits from this combo? Or would it just be all bad? Would appreciate some descriptive reasons please, thanks.

And the answer is during a certain level range, for reasons being that it simply offers options not attainable by other subs.

Like Dan mentioned, thf/mnk pre-30 is insane. But after 30 it's useless.

Sam/drg is insane 20-30 (I'd know: I did it) but those are really the only levels they're ideal (well, and 70+ but I only took sam to 37 for SJ, yet leveled DRG just for subbing to my sub).

seems to me like if you say...

Again, if you want to be experimental, be experiemental in static party. Don't be experimental in a pick-up party, period. It wastes your time and everyone else's when you do this.

...that you're just trying to defend your opinion, even though I know you're smart enough not to suggest that we all act like sheep, because that's what that quote looks like.

So instead of saying "I can't believe you're trying to kill everyone else' creativity," I'll just say:

"Ok Kitten. If people have a choice between subbing a job because it's already leveled and leveling a new job, I'm going to call them gimp for not leveling the other. You can choose to hate rng/brds at level 15 the same way I hate level 70 war/nins with Greataxe 0."

[Legal Fish]

Re: Rng/brd???

What you sub early on has no effect on what you sub later. Saying it's a bad idea to sub BRD at early levels is bad because at level 75 you don't is a horrible argument.

That said, PUP is one of the worst subs for a RNG because it hogs up the Ranged/Ammo slot.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Rng/brd???

Again, if you want to be a ranged attacker that buffs as a job you want to take to the top, then Ranger is not for you. You're looking for Corsair.

Omg logic, circa-2003: "If you're looking for a job to tank and hold aggro during a fight, then Ninja is not the job for you. You're looking for Paladin. You need to stop being a half-assed Thief and half-assed Paladin, and just pick one job or the other."

Again, if you want to be experimental, be experiemental in a static party. Don't be experimental in a pick-up party unless they consent to it. It wastes your time and everyone else's when you force a worthless subjob on the PT.

Actually, subbing WAR/THF/NIN pre-20 would be "forcing a worthless subjob on the party." That's the whole point; /BRD is actually better (read: more effective) than those other cookie-cutter SJs at low-levels.

Really why do /BRD if other subs haven't been prepped? Its benefit is for a span of levels you can get through in a few days,.

Its cute to have paeon and madrigal to 30, but its cheating yourself if you have to go back and level /WAR and /NIN anyway. Progressing RNG is just pushed even further off as a result of using a short-term subjob.

Why do you continue to return to this false dilemma? It's not an either/or choice of "use /BRD in the dunes" vs. "use /NIN in the thickets". The great thing about SJs is that you can change them at any time!

Now, IF you have all the other EXP subs done and want to try /BRD, I don't see the harm if your PT is willing to go with it.

You... don't see the harm?! Talk about not getting it.

What everyone else is trying to explain to you is that /BRD is ACTUALLY GOOD. You're acting as if it's some sort of charity work for your party members to allow you to use the MOST EFFECTIVE subjob.

But in general, questions from people like the OP aren't polling to see if its really effective, but to see if they can use it to get around other subjobs.

So what? If he has /BRD ready to go, why shouldn't he use it while it works? What's the point in telling him to level /WAR and /NIN Right Now when he already has a better subjob ready to go? Whether he levels them today or a week from now, he still shouldn't be using them for the next ~15 levels anyway.

Now, enlighten me as to the flaws behind any of this reasoning and why we should continue to senselessly play Devil's Advocate. /BRD is not useful to RNG long-term so why even waste time on it when 1-20 can be over and done within a couple days for any job? Just to say its viable? Really?

The problem is that you think we're just playing Devil's Advocate, telling him to use a useless subjob just because. In fact, even if you have all SJs leveled and available, /BRD is still arguably the best choice for RNG pre-20.

Your argument of "well it'll be done in a couple of days so who cares?" pretty much invalidates anything else you can say on the subject. If it's so short that it doesn't matter anyway, why do you care what he's subbing? He can go /MNK1 and be done with it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Rng/brd???

Omg logic, circa-2003: "If you're looking for a job to tank and hold aggro during a fight, then Ninja is not the job for you. You're looking for Paladin. You need to stop being a half-assed Thief and half-assed Paladin, and just pick one job or the other."

Seriously, I LOLed and promptly stopped reading right there.

You win.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Rng/brd???

So basically, you're saying that you lost the Special Olympics. Sweet.

Sorry, but you don't get to play the "arguing on the internet is retarded" card on your third page of arguing. It really just makes you look like a sore loser.