Rng/sam

[aegina]

I have a subjob question. I just finished browsing through months of threads on this forum and two other sites, but I cant seem to find the answer to my question.



I am currently leveling thf, but I plan to have rng be my next big job



I know after reading lots of posts that /war and /nin are the two most commonly used subs. From what ive read, /war can deal near-patch damage, whereas /nin has utsusemi, but my question is, what about rng/sam? Ive heard /sam mentioned a couple times, but I haven’t seen it really discussed in detail yet.



While you would only get one blink instead of six, ive found you usually don’t NEED more than one or two. And since rng cant melee for tp like it could before, it seems like the extra ws’s from store tp and the +60 tp every couple minutes from meditate would let you out- damage ninja. It doesn’t seem to me like it would out damage /war, but it seems a lot more survivable than /war because of Third Eye. In other words, the best of both worlds, or at the very least, a nice balance of the two.



I know before the nerf, /sam was a common sub, but what about post nerf? Is /sam still viable? Has anyone actally tried it? Ill still sub /nin until 60, but I want to know if /sam is a good sub or not.



p.s. im new to these boards. Everyone /wave to the new face

[Hitokami]

Re: Rng/sam

I would also like to know the answer to this post. Sorry I have nothing to contribute, but Ive just started playing Rng and in the Dunes (I know bad exampe) I gain TP like crazy compared to other melees. I also want to know if anyone has tryed /sam post patch if meditate and gain tp skills are worth it.

The only doubts that I have are with weapon skill accuracy. I also have noticed in the Dunes, that I very rarely hit my flaming arrow. If this continues, then /sam may be not the best choice, if 2 weapon skills go by without any damage.

[Caspian]

Re: Rng/sam

What food are you using Hito? Even if using sushi, you will still miss some in the early levels. The +% sushi gives doesnt help as much when theres a low number to give a percentage of.
As far as tp gain now? I've been playing /nin, but am leveling war again and will soon switch to that for xp parties. TP gain I got post patch was still great. The only job that beats me routinely now is sam. (Honestly its the way it should be, sams being tp masters and all and still getting beaten to 100 TP just wasnt right).
As far as /sam goes, I'm not sure about Thrid Eye. Yeah, its useful, but if you just control your hate with /war you wont have to really worry about getting hit anyway, and will still be dealing more DoT, especially with Berserk. /nin for dual wield and a second hawkers, it wont really make much of a difference. Especially if you're using sushi. Dont not use /sam b/c of it, but be aware it also has limitations. I'm sure there will still be instances endgame where /sam will still be useful, but I know by and large /nin in the old standby with /war gaining more ground everyday.

[aegina]

Re: Rng/sam

caspian, it sounds like you prefer /war over /nin (which is fine). you say to control your hate with /war, but sometimes you do still get hit. (though if you need six blinks to survive, then you need to fix your playstyle, i agree lol). /nin seems to me like overkill on defence. but comparing /sam to /war, isnt one blink better than none? just how much more dot would you get with /war anyways?
after playing thf i dont think i could live without blinks and /sam sounds like it would deal more damage than /nin

[Macht]

Re: Rng/sam

Well RNG/SAM could potentially do more WSs faster then RNG/NIN leading to about 600 more damage for each extra Sidewinder accomplished. However you will be doing same damage per shot as RNG/NIN with only landing 70-80 out of 100 while they land 80-90 out of 100. So at best RNG/SAM getting 6,400 damage and RNG/NIN getting 7,200 or an 800 damage difference.

So just to stay par with RNG/NIN you would need to hit Sidewinders as many and as often as possible. Problem presented there is now you are clustering damage for what won't always be an ending shot, so your risk actually becomes greater then that of a RNG/WAR. Even though you have Third Eye the 1 min. interval is going to really kill it's effectiveness as you progress and try to keep par with RNG/NIN.

With RNG/WAR that isn't the same case, since RNG/WAR with Berserk + good Rng. Att. Food will have the same 70-80 out of 100 but won't have around 80 damage a shot it'll be more like 120-200 so they pull out 8,400-16,000 damage. Of course shots have to be controlled and release your most devistation at well timed points as finishers (Not to early and not an overkill) unless condition allows otherwise.

Balance is something you want but like stated don't overspecialize it, this includes balance itself. RNG/NIN and RNG/WAR work well because they specialize in something but can balance or cover the other needs very well. This isn't saying that RNG/SAM is bad because the part were RNG/SAM is actually good which hasn't been to directly stated, is that they produce some really damaging Skillchains if a Mage MBs off it. In effect RNG/SAM doing the similar role of a SAM, just look up the SAMs strengths and you've kind of gotten what a RNG/SAM is like.

[aegina]

Re: Rng/sam

ah, thanks! thats just what i was looking for...

you're saying that rng/sam is good, but deals its damage the same way a sam-main would, just using ranged attacks instead of the gk to set up sc's and mb's. Rng/war deals its damage through increased stats and berserk, and /nin is through the extra accuracy(with utsusemi making up for the difference in damage).

i will definitely use /nin now for random pickup pt's, but /sam sounds interesting if i can build a pt to sc and mb around it. i like building my own pt's.

[Caspian]

Re: Rng/sam

I believe /sam is still used on some hnm's when they want to give the mob as little tp as possible. Like Macht said, the big draw of /war is Berserk....Berserk > all. Such a huge boost in damage, and gets even bigger the higher your lvl and base atk. Trying to find a good pt where you can use /sam sounds like it would be fun. Just be sure sure not to overspam those sidewinders. ><

[Ninjitsu]

Re: Rng/sam

I disagree with the assertion that a playstyle change is in order if you need 6 shadows. That is potentially 3 times a double attack mob attacks and hits you. It can, and does happen. There are also times where a tank just isn't everything you could have hoped for and you have to burn a little more shihei in exchange for reasonable damage. Now, I'm not talking about going nuts and doing sidewinder/slugshot - barrage - sidewinder/slugshot or anything, but you can certainly be in a situation where you might blink a few times in a fight because the tank just isn't holding enough hate.

I lost my old account and ended up starting over recently, so I haven't played ranger in a while, but when I did, I got in as much damage as I possibly could without screwing up the PT flow. Most PTs I have been in expect you to do as much damage as you can get away with. It's all about knowing the hate line and not going beyond the point of no return without killing the mob. When a good PT melds together, it isn't as much of an issue as one would think.

I never was a rng/war fan. Why bother? It's more dangerous and you are less accurate. I'd rather endure the ninja expense and carry my insurance policy and reap the benefits of more acc. As an Elvaan, I felt like it was the way to go whether I wanted to or not anyway.


Just my 2 ;-)

[qaitakalnin]

Re: Rng/sam

i also believe it depends on your pt set up. For instance in my pt i am the puller, i like having the /nin for the shadows so that i dont get hit (or hit very little) when bringing back a mob. Now I could let the thf in the pt pull....but then it would be really boring for me so i prefer doing the pulling. /sam, at least from what i have been given to understand is for certain HNMs for just what ninjitsu said, to give the mob as little tp as possible also it allows for you to be traded out with another /sam to keep chaining.

[aegina]

Re: Rng/sam

ok, now i've actually played ranger/ninja for a bit, and i like it a lot. those shadows are a serious life saver!

if i pull hate, so what? i'll just tank for 20 seconds. once they pull the mob off me, i recast utsu and keep tanking (er- i mean, dd-ing...) and if they can't get hate off me in time, shadowbind and step away, recast utsu, keep tanking. i can tell that ranger/sam... *could* out-damage /nin, but the point behind /nin is it makes you more than a dd. you are also an emergency tank, too. subbing ninja has saved not only myself, but my whole pt more than once already... i wonder how much cooler this job will be once i learn utsu :ni XD

ranger/sam could be good, though, but you would need a very specific party setup. as a ranger/ninja, i have seen myself out-tp sam/wars many times already, and i have been in parties where i was skillchaining with two people at once and out-tping them both at the same time. you don't NEED store tp when you're the fastest tp gainer in the party. as stated above, you wouldn't be trying to solo your weaponskills (you pull enough hate already, and without shadows that would be near-suicide), instead you would want to build the party around a skillchain, and you would need two awesome skillchain partners who can both gain tp fast. you would also want a black mage or two.

barrage + meditate + uber fast tp gain anyways = ... hmm... [skillchain frenzy] [can i have it?] hehe
but now that i've actually played ranger awhile, i like ranger/nin better. it's safer and you're more useful to the pt.

[Macht]

Re: Rng/sam

Yep, each has their own flavor to that RNG as /WAR, /NIN, or /SAM have their effective uses. RNG/WAR isn't helpless in their abilities either, I've saved my party as RNG/WAR for my fair share as well.

[Caspian]

Re: Rng/sam

Yep, each has their own flavor to that RNG as /WAR, /NIN, or /SAM have their effective uses. RNG/WAR isn't helpless in their abilities either, I've saved my party as RNG/WAR for my fair share as well.

Defender for the win! Plus if you play it right you can ride the hate line all day long. Damn I can't wait till I finish lvling my subs so I can get back to doing what I love....shooting crap.

[aegina]

Re: Rng/sam

i don't argue, but with /nin you don't NEED to ride the hate line. if you go over, you just tank ti'll the tank gets hate back

i'm not hating /war, i've just fallen in love with /nin, hehe

and /sam may have a blink, but they can't tank when needed

[Macht]

Re: Rng/sam

i don't argue, but with /nin you don't NEED to ride the hate line. if you go over, you just tank ti'll the tank gets hate back

i'm not hating /war, i've just fallen in love with /nin, hehe

and /sam may have a blink, but they can't tank when needed

Yeah, I get what you are saying and /NIN is good for that. I ride that hate line though using Iron and Scorpion Arrows, I keep my Demons for when I need to annihilate a mob. For better view of what I mean, Berserk + Food means a RNG/WAR can do equal to damage that a RNG/NIN does using Demons or Bodkins but only use Iron and Scorpions. When they pull out the big arrows like Demons and such they completly kick the crap out the damage a RNG/NIN could do.

The crap kicking attacks work well when tank needs hate taken away from them, just the downfall is when you commit to taking that hate away you better be dishing out all you can to end the fight quickly. So great judgment on how the party is doing against the mob is very key. RNG/NIN is nice because you don't really have to plan out that part of the stragedy, you actually plan it out in the oposite direction and that is what makes them so lovable.

The sacrifice to being RNG/NIN though is you plateau your damage at a lower range, it's still by far among the greatest damage dealt but RNG/WAR when situation occurs were they have no restrictions the RNG/WAR will be dishing damage far greater. The job choices all have their strengths and weaknesses what makes a good job is that the player uses them right.

RNG/NINs will get beaten around pretty good by MNK type monsters (So no Malboros or mobs like that to try and EXP off of), outside of that they are fairly well covered by the other types. It's just what is your flavor and actually have the skill for.

It's like the Rangers in EQ, some Rangers had the skill that they could actually play as the tank. Many others didn't have that skill, and some Rangers in EQ had the skill to were they could just annilihate the mob faster then others could do. It was just all dependant on their skill. Seems Rangers even on EQ proved to be a job of challenge considering they died so much they ended up coining the term "Ranger Gate" were as in FFXI we call it "Blood Warp" or "Death Warp".

[aegina]

Re: Rng/sam

as a ranger/ninja, the most i have ever dealt in a single hit is about 120-150 damage of so.
what's the most damage you've dealt as /war in a single shot against xp mobs?

(not ws's, just normal shots against xp mobs. also, i'm lvl 52 atm, if that matters)