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  • #31
    Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

    Re: Fishing/Crafting Nerf
    You only saw the rusty fishing nerf, but in fact fishing has been nerfed in *each and every major update* since the beginning of time, with the singular exception of the last one.

    Quick scan of the update notes shows me:
    A new synthesis recipe for black ink has been introduced. In conjunction with this addition, the item's buying price has also been adjusted.

    While also a fishing nerf (indirectly) this nerf affected high level Alchemists more, mostly due to the inflationary aspects of these synths.

    Re: Combat nerfs

    Update History : Battle nerfs

    Dec 16, 2003:
    The system for calculating the effect of the "Shield Bash" ability has been adjusted.
    PLD nerfed

    "Sneak Attack" will now only be successful when performed from directly behind an enemy. The positioning for "Trick Attack" remains unchanged.
    THF nerfed

    Apr 22, 2004:
    An issue concerning the accumulation of TP with weapon skills that consist of multiple strikes (i.e. Combo, Penta Thrust, etc.) has been corrected.
    All DD nerfed with multi-hit attacks (everyone except RNG. Specifically Barrage is left unaffected because it is not a WS).

    Sep 24, 2004:
    The effectiveness of the ninjutsu "Utsusemi" now relies on the type of attack that is being used on the caster.
    NIN nerfed
    Alone among melees, RNG have been left alone until now (and in fact have gained power with the inclusion of things like added Axe skill). Everyone else has been hit by at least one previous update.

    ----

    If you honestly don't think RNG is worth playing anymore, then don't play it. I'm still seeing a fair amount of people playing the job, it's still useful as far as I'm concerned, just not broken. Overnerfed slightly? Possibly. Still, I won't go out of my way to avoid inviting a ranger, any more than I go out of my way to invite any other job. Maybe others will, I don't know, that's their loss if so. I still find rangers to be productive and useful when emplayed in situations where they aren't at a distinct disadvantage (skeletons, turtles, CoP wyrms, etc.).

    As for the cost issue, while I sympathize about the expense, you also have to realize is that much of the outrageous costs associated with the RNG job were due to its enormous popularity.

    The bit about BCNM/BC fights is amusing. RNG were ridiculously overpowered in quite a few BC-type fights due to their near-invulnerability and ability to shoot from extreme range for damage. There's still battles where RNG are the go-to choice for direct damage (BC40 Worms Turn for instance). The difference now is that you can't just throw a bunch of RNG at, say, Promyvion-Holla and expect to win anymore. I've lost track of how many shouts I've seen in Jeuno along the lines of {Promyvion-Whatever} {Looking for members.} {Ranger} {please}. Maybe people will actually develop some tactics now rather than turning every fight into Kirin-style run and gun. Then again, that might be expecting too much from the average player.


    Icemage

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    • #32
      Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

      Well I just had finished a few sessions now with RNG/WAR and I have to say I love it even more now. The damage I've done in an EXP party is even more varied that's true, but slap on Berserk+Barrage and I'm doing damage well beyond what I did before this patch when I'm the right distance away. If I'm not the right distance (Say the got closer) my barrage just works even better even though the damage is less overall it ends up being more because the barrage missed less.

      Not only this but my piercing arrow seems to of benefit greatly from this, I hadn't tested Sidewinder enough yet to see if I like the change with it. So far though I've pulled off damage well beyond what I use to do at the right distance, but this is also sort of a problem now my damage goes higher at times then I was expecting so my ability to stay under hate is a little goofed up.

      I also noticed the compass did have a sligth change done to it. Before there use to be just two circles, now I can Identify 4 distinct circles. There is the center circle brightest of the 4, then of equal distances 3 other rings, each about a dot distance apart (Dot as in the red, green, blue, and yellow dots on the compasses).

      What I had noticed is when the target entered into the 4th ring with a bow my accuracy seemed to crap out really bad. Like 1 in every 5 would hit. When they were in the 3rd ring my accuracy was pretty normal but attack seemed much higher then I ever had it be. Now the odd ball about this is the 2nd ring with the bow seemed to get horrible again with accuracy and damage started to reach a near normal hit pre patch. Then when I got within the first section accuracy and damage seemed very wierd, it seemed to have spotty locations were accuracy would do good by poor damage and were damage did good but poor accuracy.

      Still just a start on the test, but I do have to say I am pulling Barrage attacks that are better then they have ever been. I'm sure no one's going to beleive me by just saying so I'll be trying to get pictures to prove it, just since I'm using PS2 they aren't going to be that great I would imagine.

      Also for an FYI after the 4th ring there is like a thin slightly brighter circle. Any monster targeted that are near that 5th circle is like an automatic miss, it's seems to be the range limit. You can still prepare to fire since for ranged attacks what's considered in range is just slightly outside of that 5th circle. So the best it does now is for pulling in situations were you can't get close enough to the monster, say and aggresive monster that's unwanted is blocking the path.


      Cheezy Test Result (I am nerdier than 96% of all people. Are you nerdier? Click here to find out!)

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      • #33
        Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

        Originally posted by Impaction
        Yea right, what goes aroud comes around.
        That might make sense if RNG's had anything to do with any of the previous nerfs.

        What might make more sense is "Karma is a bitch" since you say every rng was a cocky prick.
        That would be rather intersting though since you seem to be happier than an 18 year old in a strip club about this nerf.

        Macht, what do you do when you're engaged and you cant see the compass. I've also noticed really weird accuracy issues. Missing mutlitple times on "too weak" mobs, missing ws's from normal distance on tough or dc mobs with sharpshot on. I dont like the dmg change (obviously I'm a rng, why would I want my dmg to be less), but what bugs me most is missing on mobs that I really shouldnt at all. +50~ r. acc. w/ sushi and sharpshot and still miss a ws or part of a barrage? That just doesnt seem right, and oh yeah, now 3 accuracy bonus attributes.
        I RNG 75 I WAR 37 I NIN 38 I SAM 50 I Woodworking 92+2

        PSN: Caspian

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        • #34
          Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

          Thanks Macht for your testing ^^

          I too think visual aids would be best for such a disscussion ^^

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          • #35
            Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

            Originally posted by Prince Caspian
            Macht, what do you do when you're engaged and you cant see the compass. I've also noticed really weird accuracy issues. Missing mutlitple times on "too weak" mobs, missing ws's from normal distance on tough or dc mobs with sharpshot on. I dont like the dmg change (obviously I'm a rng, why would I want my dmg to be less), but what bugs me most is missing on mobs that I really shouldnt at all. +50~ r. acc. w/ sushi and sharpshot and still miss a ws or part of a barrage? That just doesnt seem right, and oh yeah, now 3 accuracy bonus attributes.
            That was the other thing I found as an oddity, Rng. Acc. now seems play a different effect into your accuracy. Kind of like it increases the number of potential areas that you can hit good in, I haven't tested it enough but I have noticed my accuracy to be considerably better if I were to just simply take 1 step to my side. I'll still have to test it more but it seems each time you move you can reset the accuracy factor and have a far less likely hood of missing more then once.

            Once I get use to this new damage range I can test it better, I'm have trouble now that I'm exceeding the damage range to stay under the tanks hate so I keep having my range messed up and have to reset every time. On the few occasions were I didn't pull hate I noticed standing still there my accuracy evently seemed to start missing.

            I haven't had any serious accuracy problems to really speak of yet and testing accuracy is definatly hard to really do then straight out damage is.

            Double Post Edited:
            Also Caspian I'm curious what is your DEX at? I still back that for abilities like Sharpshot your better of with DEX then you are AGI for their effects. On the old system it always held true for me in the BCNM40s were I was the only RNG to consistently pull off 800+ Barrage and EES.
            Last edited by Macht; 07-25-2005, 04:17 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost


            Cheezy Test Result (I am nerdier than 96% of all people. Are you nerdier? Click here to find out!)

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            • #36
              Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

              Originally posted by Prince Caspian
              Macht, what do you do when you're engaged and you cant see the compass.
              Prince Caspian, from what I understand you don't exactly have to be engaged now since RNGs now are shooting away from meele range. So probably the only time that you do have to be engaged is when you want to use a WS, which leaves the compass open for you to use. However if this option is not to your liking, I think that sometimes you can sub-target something so you can still see the compass. I know I do something like this when I'm farming for elementals and want to see if an element is up or not I just sub-target one of my magics so that part of the screen isn't covered up by the menu.

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              • #37
                Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                Not sure of the exact number. Only thing has -DEX is Custom Boots, though I'll probably be exchanging them soon for some leaping or bounding boots.
                I've also notice not moving seems to kill accuracy over time. Fighting beetles I'd start off good, then towards the end of the fight I'd miss like 5 times in a row. Weird thing is, I was xp'ing on helm beetles in CN the other day. (roughly 10 lvls above me). On one beetle I think I missed twice. On the next I missed probably 10 times....seems really random, and very hard to get a good test on.

                Thx zemp, I'll have to try that. Only reason I really stay engaged anymore is to monitor TP and then fire off WS, though the only time I ever fire it at 100 is if I'm pt'ing with SAM, otherwise I'm usually the first to get there.
                Last edited by Caspian; 07-25-2005, 04:47 PM.
                I RNG 75 I WAR 37 I NIN 38 I SAM 50 I Woodworking 92+2

                PSN: Caspian

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                • #38
                  Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                  So can we come to a possible theory that ranged accuracy is not stable, but rather you have to be constantly on the move to get the best from it, however still staying in a certain portion of the ring in the compass?

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                  • #39
                    Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                    Thats the best theory I've heard thus far.
                    I RNG 75 I WAR 37 I NIN 38 I SAM 50 I Woodworking 92+2

                    PSN: Caspian

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                    • #40
                      Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                      No idea what level you are Macht, but I also converted to the RNG/WAR, also being a 75 RNG myself, Ill post my experience with this ^^.

                      Ill start of by saying I think the changes were in the right places, they were just a little too extreme ^^d.

                      So as a RNG/WAR I have about +46Racc+ whatever Sushi adds onto that. So my first battles with this combo were on Aura POts, since my LS was farming Ro'Maeve Waters. I was using Obow with Holy Bolts, and WSing with Darksteel, and I also kept berserk up whenever availiable.

                      My base damage was 80-86, and my Weaponskills were hitting for about 650~
                      Now I wasnt very pleased with this outcome, but not overly mad either. Pre-patch I was doing around 800~ Slugshot and 110-120 Base attack. Another major problem was missing so often. Its hard to believe that with +46 Racc +Sushi we could still miss at such a large margin of attacks, and on all ranges of mobs too. Its somewhat similar to other melee, but ours jsut seem to be very sporadic.

                      So after a bit we moved onto Genbu, and this is where me and the two other RNGs participating became quite angry, you should have seen the /tells lol.

                      Base damage was about 30-40, and Slug Shot was for around 250~ This was a horrible awakening for all of us whose normal attacks use to be 65-75 and WS for 550 easy. Another major problem was that Genbu was usually on the move making it difficult for us to do damage correctly. After a bit we tried an interesting strategy that when Genbu was bein kited (usually always is for us atm), we make the tank run in a certain path and the RNGs use their WSes [Genbu] moves into the correct position. It actually worked pretty well but it can be hard to coreograph since Mob AI when chasing someone can sometimes be arbitrary.

                      All and in all, RNG/WAR seems to be the new sub of choice, but I would like to test out /SAM and /DRK as well, because to you never know at this point ^^.

                      There is still hope for us RNGs! Just remain strong and try to cope and adjust with what may be our new life ; ;.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                        While I don't agree with how this thread was titled, I just wanna point out what Icemage and everyone that's favored towards this patch.

                        I don't think RNG's are whiners about this patch. But like what I've said it in the thread that was closed that "If you can give me a definite answer as to what the developers wanted the RNG's to be, then maybe you can understand why this patch was implemented." That's all I ask for. You can't say they're made to be the heavy damage dealers cause hell I thought DRK's were. But maybe they weren't meant to be heavy DD's cause this patch was put in. Again I don't know what the hell the Developers made the RNGs to be. But If NIN's were pullers, the players MADE them into tanks, not SE. Players are smart, cause they always come up with ways to break the game down. And the bad part is, when it gets changed, everyone will get mad cause of the change. Why? Cause people hate change. But with change comes evolution, and great players evolve and adapt to any given situation they're put in. Regardless on how harsh, bad or even unfavorable, they pull through.

                        Originally posted by Kagetsu
                        There is still hope for us RNGs! Just remain strong and try to cope and adjust with what may be our new life ; ;.
                        Indeed.


                        JP
                        Last edited by JP_Ikari; 07-27-2005, 02:36 PM.

                        brave; integritous; commanding
                        New sig. Thank you Graelinn of BeastInTheSack (Garuda)
                        75 ナイト, 37 戦士, 31 忍者, 18 シーフ, 16 モンク, 8 侍, others: level 1 T_T.
                        ナイト 怒 (いかり)(Level 75 ナ/Level 37 戦)

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                        • #42
                          Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                          I am a RNG but i wont be biased, but I see alot of post on people who dont play rng or havent used/ pted with it since the patch...
                          I say just go fight fafnir, go to dynamis, and go fight sazuka, and then make your findings. On gods and HNMs, Is where you will see how the patch really affects not only RNG, but other jobs and battle tactics as well. Good or Bad, thats where most of your changes will surface, believe me I found out this week^^. Btw I was living when I was popping off max dmg in shrine and other rngs were fustrated as hell looking for the the "spot".
                          RNG 75, SAM 75, RDM 75,SMN 68, NIN 37, BRD 37, THF 37, WAR 37, DRK 37, WHM 37,PLD 27,DRG 26
                          My long kiss good night..........
                          Take The Quiz Yourself!

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                          • #43
                            Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                            Originally posted by Kagetsu
                            All and in all, RNG/WAR seems to be the new sub of choice, but I would like to test out /SAM and /DRK as well, because to you never know at this point ^^.
                            Oh that is very interesting indeed ^^ It would make sense for /DRK for the 2 Attack bonus JT, but do those carry onto ranged attack? Furthermore does Last Resort and Souleater carry onto ranged attack? I'm also curious if the +2 Attack Bonus JT from /DRK will be stronger,weaker,or on par with /WAR and Berserk ^^

                            Originally posted by JP_Ikari
                            I don't think RNG's are whiners about this patch. But like what I've said it in the thread that was closed that "If you can give me a definite answer as to what the developers wanted the RNG's to be, then maybe you can understand why this patch was implemented." That's all I ask for. You can't say they're made to be the heavy damage dealers cause hell I thought DRK's were. But maybe they weren't meant to be heavy DD's cause this patch was put in. Again I don't know what the hell the Developers made the RNGs to be. But If NIN's were pullers, the players MADE them into tanks, not SE. Players are smart, cause they always come up with ways to break the game down. And the bad part is, when it gets changed, everyone will get mad cause of the change. Why? Cause people hate change. But with change comes evolution, and great players evolve and adapt to any given situation they're put in. Regardless on how harsh, bad or even unfavorable, they pull through.
                            I don't think RNGs (general term) are whiners, look at Macht and Apple Pie (to name a few) that still trying to (and possibly succed) find a way to make things viable for those RNGs. Survival of the fittest ^^

                            I admit that I don't know about the "end-game", but I do know that the "end-game" is not 100% of the game. As JP_Ikari stated, people are smart and will learn to adapt and things will even out in the end.

                            Until then /cheers to Macht, Kagetsu, and all those chugging along as RNGs despite this update.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                              The reason I named this thread the way I did...well, look at my post, I tried to help RNGS. Still, try and count the number of threads that say "OMG...we suck now." or "Let's send 10,000 petitons to SE and have them change RNG back." I was tired of all of the whining that a lot (not all) of the RNGs were doing. The game is survival of the fittest. Either you adapt or you die out, which a lot of RNGs did on Ragnarok. Merman's rings are 200k now....down from 800k each. That's a lot of RNGs that just gave up, and flooded the market with their nice gear. Now the people that didn't give up with RNG can afford nice gear, and deal good damage. Because they chose to adapt.
                              Rodin - Ragnarok Server (Out of Retirement)
                              90BRD 90SMN 90WHM 75BLM 75RDM 61BST 50RNG 37NIN 37THF

                              Goal: All jobs max level and capped merits.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Quit your B****ing and read this!

                                you make it sound like rangers can still do good damage. They can, in exp parties, and only exp parties.

                                People sold their high end gear because rangers are the new dragoon for HNMs. You don't want them because

                                1) unreliable
                                2) low damage
                                3) low accuracy

                                posting a stupid compass doesn't help anything. Any ranger with half a brain has figured out the sweet spot and most of them still agree the job is not worth the cost anymore.

                                There's hardly any "adapting" to be done when there's simply better choices to be picked.

                                Survival of the fittest? More like the survival of the least-nerfed class. Believing the classes are balanced and only potential limiter for your effectiveness and damage output is the player's skill is uninformed, ignorant and most of all, stupid.

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