Difference between Taru RNG and Elv RNG worth fussing over?

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
In the levels where RNGs semi-regularly miss Sidewinder, I don't believe that 10+ AGI is an insignificant difference.

No disagreements there. I personally like to think of endgame, even when I'm not high level, because it determines what you can achieve as your final goal. But I agree with your statement.

However, even at those levels, like I said, I had 5-6 more RNG ACC than Nsx, and he had 8+ more AGI than me... and I still had more accuracy% for regular shots and WS according to parser. So even then I don't think it's that big of a deal, compared to having more HP or STR (which is immediately more apparent and useful).

I know you speak on the RNG/WAR dynamic from the perspective of a high-level PLD, but honestly, I really don't see any high-level RNGs subscribing to that theory in practice. It is extremely rare that I hear a high-level RNG say that they regularly sub WAR, and every time I run a /search, the subjob numbers are ridiculously lopsided. (For example, at the time of this post, of the 46 RNGs LV66-75 on our server, 2 of them were subbing WAR.) Given that PLD is, by far, the most common tank job (post-30), it doesn't look like the HP advantage is one that's being used.

Ah, I see your point, but I never meant that /WAR is more common or even more popular sub for RNG at those levels. What I meant is this:
As you know, there are 3 main types of tanks for xp pt's in this game. The major advantage PLD has over WAR and NIN is that they have more tools to garner and keep aggro than the other tanks. Yes, it's also necessary for PLDs to know when to "hold back" hate in instances, but if they have to constantly "hold back" hate , so that the monster turns and a THF or /THF can fuidama, I feel that the PLD's skills are not being used to their full potential.

Thus, as a PLD I prefer to have a strong trick partner that can turn the monster EVEN if I am keeping as much hate as possible (this makes it safer for the other 4 party members, compared to the scenario where the PLD has to hold back). In this case, I prefer RNG/WAR, because they can ALWAYS turn the monster, even with a weak WS like heavy shot or arching arrow, because they do so much constant damage, and have provoke there just in case. I have been in parties where WAR/NIN's, DRG/WAR's, MNK/WAR's, and RNG/NIN's could NOT turn the monster unless I held back... but RNG/WAR always can. This is why I prefer RNG/WAR in this dynamic.

But is it popular? Probably not, because it takes a lot of trust in your party and your tank to act so "berserk" with your ranger. /NIN is safer than /WAR and has its own benefits, so it will always be the more popular choice. And it's not purely selfish, since if the RNG dies too much, that brings down the xp/hour the PT makes significantly.

But with a good party and a good tank, RNG/WAR is the way to go, and when you're a trick partner as /WAR, high HP is very important.

[sekaran]

With Trick Attack and Assasin, I find that having the mob turn completely isn't entirely needed when PTing with a THF anymore. Of course, with any other melee subbing THF, I could see why having a WAR sub would provide beneficial for WS purposes if PTing with a PLD tank.

I'd still like to sub WAR sometime.. if I ever decide to level it. Low level Taru WAR is just the suck to level with random PTs in Dunes/Korroloka/Qufim/Jungles.. ><

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
However, even at those levels, like I said, I had 5-6 more RNG ACC than Nsx, and he had 8+ more AGI than me... and I still had more accuracy% for regular shots and WS according to parser.

RACC is all equipment, though. Essentially, what you're saying is that better gear trumps better base stats, which I don't think anyone disagrees with. I thought it was presumed that we're comparing different races with equal gear.

[imac2much]

No, what I meant was that the racial difference between a Taru and a Galka concerning AGI was minimal at best, equating to less than a 5 RNG ACC difference.

Whereas the difference in HP is immediately apparent and effective. Capice?

You even quoted this very point from one of my previous posts:

Originally posted by imac2much
The most important difference between all the races IMO is not AGI or STR... it's HP.

So I assumed you were on the same page.

If people don't even think Peacock Charm is that much better than RNG Necklace, even though it has 5 more RNG ACC, how can anyone even argue that racial difference in AGI is significant? Yes, I realize it's also because of the Charm's unreasonable price, but you get my drift. If you browse old threads on this Charm vs Necklace issue, some high levels who CAN afford the Charm said themselves they prefer Jagd Gorget for the slightly higher RNG ATK. Personally, I don't see much difference with 6 or so more RNG ATK... the 5 extra RNG ACC isn't readily apparent, but I felt I could never have enough RNG ACC for sidewinders.

But before I left the game, I usually had to use the more accurate Heavy Shot/Arching Arrow anyway, so the dynamics change once again.

So in conclusion: racial difference in AGI is overshadowed by gear bonuses, wheras racial difference in HP cannot be compensated and can be significant for certain playstyles.

[Omni]

Originally posted by Rai
I don't know you so I don't know if you are joking, being sarcastic or what.

But if you don't understand this happening you either never partied in Valley of Sorrows or only partied there when you were the only party in the Zone.

Yeah, when I partied there, things went really well if we were the only party. As soon as another party comes in, most often they'd get out into the zone at the very end of the tunnel forcing our puller to go through them, also the speed at which 2 parties go through the Velociraptor forces the puller to go further and further out. Even a THF using flee can be run down by a Velociraptor. So that is how they'd get killed. And I saw plenty of other parties lose their pullers too.

well i said i wasnt being sarcastic

thats odd, ive pt`d thru valley many times and never had any sort of trouble with that. possibly we were 1 of only 2 pts there, i dont remember to be hoenst. i never even bothered to goto valley if i saw that 2 pts were already there. i guess thats why.

but the 6-7 times ive xp there ive never had a puller die going out for them. were u guys only pulling raptors? no perytons too? i think we were doing perytons too so possibly gave us more choices in mobs. :spin:

[Thegod]

tone i cant help take it how you will i disagreed, go on from there otherise your just biting into my .......w/e you wanna call it.

I dont believe paras count forr anything....

everyone says skill >> gear >> some other stuff and IMO thats the best you could describe it.


example a ranger in my party last night had an ebow, i had must+2

now the dmg couldnt even be compared correctly because for some reason he wouldnt shoot as fast as i was shoting and his delay was 58 less then mine....


how does a para account for that???


he asked if it was worth fussing over

i stated i dont think it is because tarus perform perfectly well.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
No, what I meant was that the racial difference between a Taru and a Galka concerning AGI was minimal at best, equating to less than a 5 RNG ACC difference.

Whereas the difference in HP is immediately apparent and effective. Capice?

Well, as I pointed out, I don't really agree with the HP argument (it pretty much rests on /WAR), so I would say that even if the AGI difference is less than 5 RACC, it's still more useful than extra HP you don't need.

If people don't even think Peacock Charm is that much better than RNG Necklace, even though it has 5 more RNG ACC, how can anyone even argue that racial difference in AGI is significant? Yes, I realize it's also because of the Charm's unreasonable price, but you get my drift. If you browse old threads on this Charm vs Necklace issue, some high levels who CAN afford the Charm said themselves they prefer Jagd Gorget for the slightly higher RNG ATK.

The main issue of Charm vs. Necklace is, as you implied, 5 RACC vs. 5 RATK + 5 million gil. If Charms were as abundant as say, Life Belts, I doubt many RNGs would be wearing Necklaces from 55-66 (at the least).

I'd guess that any high-level RNG who can afford the Peacock Charm is likely in the level range where RACC is excessively abundant and they start wearing stuff like STR rings.

[DrSerpico]

Quick pot shot

Well, as I pointed out, I don't really agree with the HP argument (it pretty much rests on /WAR)

Tell Kirin that your hp doesn't matter when you hit a good slug, and he throws a 900+ great whirlwind your way. Galka eats it and drops to 30% hp, taru probably dies.

Does not have anything to do with /nin or /war. AoE's and devastating oneshot heavy attacks also have a more devastating effect on lower HP races. Ullikummi > Heavy Strike comes to mind.

I also notice even at my level for exp, if you want to push the limits, hp IS of concern. (my ranger is currently 45. High level observations made from PoV of rdm75, and through discussion with the 5 lvl 74+ rng's in our shell.)

If you're going for chain 7, you really don't have time to stop for aggrofree curaga... Bard tosses it and takes the damage until rangers get more hate then him. Not as safe to do with a taru as with a galka. You get less leeway, and because shit does happen, you die more often with lower HP races.

That's all I had to say about that.
Besides, you can't really argue against HP being a concern for a job specialized in dealing HEAVY damage and thus generating a lot of hate?

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Well, as I pointed out, I don't really agree with the HP argument (it pretty much rests on /WAR), so I would say that even if the AGI difference is less than 5 RACC, it's still more useful than extra HP you don't need.

Um.. I know you don't consider HP a factor, but that doesn't mean it's true. For some people's play styles it will be a factor, for others it won't. Nearly every skilled RNG I've played with has considered it a factor. I am NOT insinuating you are not skilled, but perhaps your regular PT setup or playstyle just doesn't garner much aggro (an exceptionally good THF, a PLD extremely quick with his cover, no need to be trick partner, etc). But otherwise, it's our ROLE to dish out lots of damage ... lots of damage = lots of hate = we get hurt. Just because you don't believe that HP is a factor doesn't change what I myself said... and my whole point was the racial difference assuming 500 or so HP is more important than the equivalent of 3 RNG ACC.

I *also* clearly stated later I was just talking about endgame. If you want to fuss over the little points while climbing the ladder, that's fine and nothing wrong with it. But why do people go to so much work to gain levels? Usually so they can take part in endgame... i.e. HNM, high level merit parties, and in RNG case multi-RNG/NIN (with utsu:ni) xp destruction parties hehe.

Whether you agree with me or not doesn't change WHAT I said, which should be clearly obvious. That's why I don't understand why you think my argument concerned purely RNG ACC gear vs RACIAL AGI. It doesn't.

The main issue of Charm vs. Necklace is, as you implied, 5 RACC vs. 5 RATK + 5 million gil. If Charms were as abundant as say, Life Belts, I doubt many RNGs would be wearing Necklaces from 55-66 (at the least).

I'd guess that any high-level RNG who can afford the Peacock Charm is likely in the level range where RACC is excessively abundant and they start wearing stuff like STR rings.

Agreed, and once again I was talking about high levels. You're right, when people spam sidewinders, RNG ACC could still be useful. However, I'd say it's more like 55-59... at 60 once you can use US+PPA, you'll almost never miss a sidewinder. The +40 rng acc will be more than enough and generally will make that 6 or so AGI utterly insignificant. For times US is not refreshed, that's what improved sharpshot is for.

Once again, I'm mainly talking about endgame. Once again, I believe at endgame (and normal xp pt as well), HP is pretty important for a high damage character. DrSerpico stated this much clearer than I had. If you don't agree, Dan, you are entitled to your opinion, but in that case don't take my quotes out of context and don't pull words out of my mouth like this:

Essentially, what you're saying is that better gear trumps better base stats...

Either you are just trying to make me look bad by making things up, or you just didn't read my posts.

[Thegod]

sorry imac i agree after discussing with LS 75 rngs.

HP is crucial, but not a big deal if the rngs log out after 3-4k during a god fight to reset hate.

I dont find any difference in getting agi naturally or through gears (ala sery. kote vs crimson gloves)

in either event a level 70+ rng be he galkan, taru,m mithra, or elvaan will be highly saught after for every god fight...


and if not, its a good thing ima blm too =)

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
I *also* clearly stated later I was just talking about endgame. If you want to fuss over the little points while climbing the ladder, that's fine and nothing wrong with it. But why do people go to so much work to gain levels? Usually so they can take part in endgame... i.e. HNM, high level merit parties, and in RNG case multi-RNG/NIN (with utsu:ni) xp destruction parties hehe.

I already conceded that at endgame, there is an abundance of RACC equipment available, which will of course reduce the value of extra racial AGI greatly.

The whole point I was making was that prior to that point, AGI is more valuable than HP. That's why I specifically said that endgame is one thing, but there's a lot of leveling involved before you get to that point.

In the case that only LV70+ is being discussed, then yes, HP is more useful than AGI, since RACC is so abundant. But prior to that, I don't think it is.

It seems that our dispute is less about AGI vs. HP and more about leveling vs. endgame.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Quick pot shot

Originally posted by DrSerpico
If you're going for chain 7, you really don't have time to stop for aggrofree curaga... Bard tosses it and takes the damage until rangers get more hate then him. Not as safe to do with a taru as with a galka. You get less leeway, and because shit does happen, you die more often with lower HP races.

Are you talking about the HP of the BRD here, or the RNG?

I don't dispute the usefulness of HP for non-THF jobs without a NIN sub.

[DrSerpico]

Okies, clarification

The whole point I was making was that prior to that point, AGI is more valuable than HP. That's why I specifically said that endgame is one thing, but there's a lot of leveling involved before you get to that point.

I'm currently 45 rng, in the lower middle of levelling. I would value more hp over more agi. It depends on your pt setup, as imac stated, but with more hp as buffer, you have more room to try the limits.

Sacrifice a rushed pull outside perfect circumstances for chain 6, pull 2 mobs at once and shadowbind in order while you go all out on the first mob, which WILL make you take hits, even if you have utsu: ichi.

That was the point I was making.

[imac2much]

No, my dispute is over this post you made:

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
RACC is all equipment, though. Essentially, what you're saying is that better gear trumps better base stats, which I don't think anyone disagrees with. I thought it was presumed that we're comparing different races with equal gear.

What I said is this: you took what I wrote out of context and put words in my mouth that I never said ("better gear trumps better stats"). It's OBVIOUS you took my words out of context. Why? Look at what I wrote IMMEDIATELY following your snippet of my quote:

Originally posted by imac2much
However, even at those levels, like I said, I had 5-6 more RNG ACC than Nsx, and he had 8+ more AGI than me... and I still had more accuracy% for regular shots and WS according to parser. So even then I don't think it's that big of a deal, compared to having more HP or STR (which is immediately more apparent and useful).

I'm shocked and confused how you can pull something I say out of context, put words in my mouth, then contradict what I said in the very post you quoted with this:

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
It seems that our dispute is less about AGI vs. HP and more about leveling vs. endgame.

Wrong! Allow me to repeat:

Originally posted by imac2much
So even then I don't think it's that big of a deal, compared to having more HP or STR (which is immediately more apparent and useful).

And to drive the point in further, I said this as well:

Originally posted by imac2much

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
In the levels where RNGs semi-regularly miss Sidewinder, I don't believe that 10+ AGI is an insignificant difference.

No disagreements there. I personally like to think of endgame, even when I'm not high level, because it determines what you can achieve as your final goal. But I agree with your statement.

I already addressed the whole "leveling vs endgame" dispute there, and even agreed with you.

Once again, my whole point is that the minimal benefit you get from 6 or so AGI is overshadowed by the difference of 500 or so HP for many RNG playstyles. Please don't twist my words. My posts aren't that hard to follow if you read them thoroughly.

[Spider-Dan]

You said that with 5-6 more RACC, you had better accuracy than nsx, who had 8 more AGI. Since that extra RACC came from gear, I took that statement to mean that you were saying that his racial AGI advantage was eclipsed by your gear RACC advantage (i.e. your gear trumped his base stats), and based on that, you didn't think the extra AGI was that big of a deal (compared to more HP or STR).

In any case, in non-endgame situations (because I'm not at endgame), I've had very little use for extra HP. Even if the extra accuracy I get from AGI is small, I know I get a benefit from that, all the time. Of course, the STR vs. AGI is a totally different issue, and a discussion that won't be resolved here. But AGI vs. HP, in the leveling ranges, seems like a pretty straightforward decision for a /NIN to me.

To put it in reasonable perspective, I can't imagine a leveling RNG ever equipping +HP gear solely for the +HP stats, yet I see them equipping +AGI all the time. If extra HP is really more useful than extra AGI, more RNGs would be equipping +HP gear, would they not?