Why use gun vs HNM / Gods?

[Vanguard]

I don't have rng high enough for HNMs or Gods yet, but other rngs I've seen use gun for 'big' stuff.

I was looking at guns, and say you use helfire+1 and silver bullets. That is 122 base damage with 880 delay.

Say you use a bow, take mst cst bow and you use, even scorp for normal shots then switch to demon (or kabura but #s ahead are with demon) or so for WS. That is 101 damage and 630 delay for normal shots and 111 damage and 630 delay for WS (delay doesn't matter I guess).

It would seem that damage over time would be better with a bow... You'll get tp faster in order to do WS sooner, and bow has more acc with using acc arrows. Also, I would expect to use cp arrow for every other ws or so, which would make it 117 damage with a whole lot of acc (go at less tp if you think it's easy enough to hit overall).

In general at least, normal hits are for less, but I think you can do ws sooner which should make gun and bow comparable...

One other thing I could think of for a gun is that the longer delay would give the mob less tp, and you get more per a hit. Well, you could use sarnga to get that effect more so.

I know there is rng atk from gun i didn't consider, and can also have some rng atk from cp arrow, but from my lvling experience, the rng attack isn't going to mean so much more damage, 5% more or something?

Well anyway, I'm not siding with bow because there may be factors i'm overlooking, that's why i'm posting.

Overall, even if guns do more damage over time, I don't think it would be that much more.

Oh, just had a thought, ha, guns are probably more accurate inherently than bow? Even so, by 75 with tons of acc gear, it would seem you would hit often enough with bow.

So, any thoughts would be good, just thinking ahead.

Thanks

[imac2much]

You don't get TP faster with bows than guns. Quite the opposite.

First of all, for normal shots, your TP is directly related to the delay. The higher the delay, the more TP you get. So if you are spamming ranged attack, you would get TP at the same time.

However, when you use a WS or Barrage (shots that ignore delay entirely), you get more TP with gun than bow.

Base damage is much more important on HNM than RNG ATK or any other such thing. The huge delay isn't a big deal since for some HNM which you kite you need to run around to shoot it anyway. (and as you know, once you start the shot animation, it can't get out of your range)

Since the base VIT and DEF of HNM are inherently higher than most other monsters you fight, base damage on your weapon matters all the more. For example, M.C. bow does more damage than E-bow per shot, even though E-bow has all that RNG ATK and STR. So even DoT, gun wins out. Combine that with the increased TP return, and you can see where we're heading.

[Vanguard]

Thanks for replying.

It is true that TP is related to delay, but it isn't a 1:1 ratio. Slower delay gives faster tp over time: daggers are one example, but more related is an xbow. An xbow that cna shoot almost twice as fast as a bow will get 10 instead of 13 or 14 tp from a bow.

For a WS and barrage when delay doesn't matter, it's true that higher delay gives more TP from these abilities. For WS, it doesn't matter so much, because it's only a few tp difference. For barrage, it's about 3x5 more tp with longer delay (I don't know how much tp gun gives, but guessing 16 possibly 17). Also, once every 5 mins doesn't seem that notable, otherwise a sarnga could get this effect.

I agree that rng atk doesn't seem that important compared to base damage.

I just had a thought, I assume a rng can't go all out dealing damage. Say they are using a gun, they can't keep shooting as fast as possible can they? and using WS at the lowest tp they think can hit? Compared to an xp pt, a tank can't hold as much hate since he probably can't hit the mob and a pld can't do as much curing compared to how much other mages have to cure him. So, if you use a gun, but have to pace your shots, if you use a bow which does less damage a hit, you could probably shoot more often (factoring in bow is about 25% faster than gun)

HNMS or Gods do have high DEF and VIT, but if you can't go all out, then it seems more clear a bow could match gun overall.

Just for clarification, I think a general list of fights would be triggers, Gods and Kirin, and HNM might be Fafnir.

Is my assumption wrong about a rng having to hold back if they use gun? Maybe the longer delay of a gun would mean you can shoot back to back anyway, which would mean you can shoot back to back with bow being 25% faster. If gun damage is 122 vs 101 bow, it's about 20% more damage a hit, but this number would be less for a WS.

Just looking at the numbers, it still seems to me that a bow should be close enough to a gun...

[Random]

imo it doesnt matter, for big gods and hnms you might use stun arrows to have the chance to stun big things that maybe your mages miss, seiryu and amikiri are good of examples, seiry spams fire magic with chain spell it gets pretty nasty, amikiri just has super high defense and has some nasty aoes

[taps]

and as you know, once you start the shot animation, it can't get out of your range

Just to mention that, it doesn't hold true in ballista, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't always hold true with mobs running away.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by taps
Just to mention that, it doesn't hold true in ballista, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't always hold true with mobs running away.

I agree. When pulling, I've started throwing Boomering, then got "The mob is too far away" (or whatever the text is) and didn't throw.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Vanguard
It is true that TP is related to delay, but it isn't a 1:1 ratio. Slower delay gives faster tp over time: daggers are one example, but more related is an xbow. An xbow that cna shoot almost twice as fast as a bow will get 10 instead of 13 or 14 tp from a bow.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure it is a direct proportional relationship. Dagger is the only exception because there is indeed a minimum TP gain per hit (5) so sometimes dagger gets more than it should (small delay especially with dual wield haste, such that the dagger should get less than 5 tp per hit but because of the minimum requirement still get 5). I'm pretty sure when it comes to xbow vs bow vs gun , the delay vs tp relationship is still proportional.

[Mithrael]

This is a better indicaction of actual TP:TIME relationship. Because TP gain is fractional (i.e. you can get 9.9%TP) the number of "swings" varies slightly. Obvious, you want to match your weapon as close to the valley of each group as possible. TP per hit is pretty linear, it's 3 equations, so not exactly linear, but each segment is linear.

An 880 delay weapon would have 100% tp in 88 seconds, assuming no special skills (barrage) are used, you are not hit, and you have 100% acuracy.

A 630 delay weapon would have 100% tp in 84 seconds assuming the same info.

This is because 880 is close to the valley and 630 is close to the peak.








Not ranger related: This is why you hear DRKs debating the Bone Scythe vs. Brb. Scythe bit. Bone scythe falls near a peak, meaning 76.8 seconds, Brb. is near a valley meaning 70.4.

[Narru]

Vanguard, it seems to me you're trying to justify not putting out the money to use a gun. If that is the case, don't worry about what other people say/think and just use a bow.

[imac2much]

Great information, as usual Mithrael. Thank you.

[ClydeArrowny]

I know its different cause of dual wield, but ninja I PTd with tried a seemingly strange weapon setup. Fudo in main hand and unupgraded relic in off hand(D1 delay999.) He gained TP at least twice as fast as my thf and the drk, sometimes more.

[Tokitoki]

Mithrael isnt that graph just assuming that the TP is the same on all delays because otherwise it would spike so much. I mean sure it takes longer for you to shoot but you do get more TP in return. If, for instance, you have a 990 delay weapon (which isnt a normal in-game weapon but it was at the end of the graph) it would only take a few shots/hits to get 100 not the many shots/hits it would take to get 100 TP with the low delay weapon.

I dunno it just looks like its based on TP from each weapon being constant, not higher delay = more TP

[Vanguard]

Thanks for the information. I like that graph Mithrael, and I see how that extra bit of delay can put you over the edge to get 1 more tp a hit. And according to it, a xbow should get tp in about 67 seconds vs a bow at 84 seconds; these proportions seem to be right.

To say though, all the values seem high for me, because It feels like my xbow gets tp faster (all though it may be because of some melee swings in between) and I know my thf gets tp faster than 60 seconds, but as imac said, it could be because of the minimum of 5 tp for daggers.

I haven't used a gun yet; guess i'll have to try it.

Narru, I guess you're voting for guns, and although money is one reason, I do/did (maybe still do) think a bow could match a gun. It could be my mentality of always liking low delay such as when i played thf. I love TP, although mithreal's post makes it seem that where a bow lies, it's getting ripped off of 1 tp where as a gun gains an extra.

A note: last night our LS did genbu and byakko, and 2 rng went and bow used xbow... I guess they didn't care about giving them TP and just wanted to get tp themselves fast (maybe I should ask and hope they know some English).

Also, thank you clyde for that your post lol. I'm going to try that with my nin right now (and i was about to toss my relic for taking up space).

[Mithrael]

Tokitoki: it's assuming the delay associated with each weapon vs. the TP returned.

For example:

a 150 delay weaon (lower bound, afaik, there is no weapon in-game with a lower delay) gets 5tp.

a 180 delay weapon gets 5tp.

A 200 delay weapon gets 5.4tp.

a 300 delay weapon gets 7.8tp.

...

a 900 delay weapon gets 17.2

a 999 delay weapon gets 18.4

Take the following example

a 519 delay weapon gets 12.4tp per swing. 100/12.4=8.06 swings. Since you can't do a .6 swing, it effectively takes 9 swings to get to 100% tp. 9 * (519/60) = 77.85 seconds

a 520 delay weapon gets 12.5tp per swing.
100/12.5 = 8. 8 * (520/60) = 69.33 seconds.

That's why there is a spike at every increment of TP gain. The goal, if it is possible (and often times it's NOT possible), is to have a weapon with a delay that falls right after the peak, maximizing it's TP vs Time.

I'm not sure I really understood exactly what the question was. did I answer it?

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As for why it seems faster IRL...

Well, sometimes a minute doesn't feel like a minute for one we're very unreliable regarding what "feels" like more damage, or what "feels" slower. I often "feel" like i miss less with my greatsword, but the parser disagrees 99.9% of the time.

You didn't say what level your THF is, but if you're 20+ and subbing ninja, you need to subtract 10% of the time and adjust on the chart that way. If 60+ subtract 15% If you're 50+ and subbing warrior, you have double attack. If you're 55+ you have triple attack. There are many reasons that you'd get TP faster, none of which can be accounted for with any reliability in a general chart.

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As for how the chart is derived (hopefully this will answer any other questions:

Delay 0 - 180: 5.0
Delay 180 - 480: ((Delay - 180) / 256) * 6 + 5
Delay 480 - 900: (Delay + 480) / 80

to determin length of time to get ot 100%tp:
int(100 / tp_per_swing + .99) * (delay / 60)

You add .99 to force a roundup (because 8.01 is actually 9 swings/shots), then INT it to remove the fractional part.


--

Anyway, the whole point is that TP gain in the two situations you posted are nearly identical. 4 seconds is hardly a difference at all, especially when accounting for human error of not shooting as soon as you possibly can.

[Vanguard]

My thf is 75 and has about +54 if i remember so I hit roughly 95% of the time and based on my sneak attack timer, I know i get tp faster than a minute.

But anyway, a comment, in your calculations you did weapon delay / 60 to get seconds, but it is actually /100. 100 delay is 1 second (well, least i'm highly sure =) ). I haven't thought how exactly that will change your calculations, but it will speed everything up because that means 600 delay is 6 seconds and not 10 seconds (and that does sound about right for a bow so I guess that supports 100 delay is 1 second).