sa+sidewinder.. {Yes please}

[Timoham]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I think people should also include their Archery skill (if not capped) in any submitted logs.

No offense, but what ranger doesn't have archery capped? :/

[imac2much]

iglak/Yatsu, you make some good points, and I otherwise would agree with your claims. However, no offense, but did you read through this entire post or just the last 2 pages? I never said Sidewinder is 5x regular hit. It is dan only who is saying that sidewinder is '4x regular hit with defense subtracted only once.' My recent arguments were included solely to disprove that, and not to reinforce the 5x statement.

Here is a post on the second page that referenced one of my threads involving weapon skills (semi-translated from Studio Gobli):

Originally posted by Rones
I've seen this brought up a few times. From what I've read, the JP game guides put it at times 5 instead of times 4 despite the weapons description. I believe I've seen Apple Pie post a list of these various formulaes some place.

Found one of the threads that discussed it.
Here is an excerpt from it. Damage multiplier is listed after the ws name.


Here is the main source of the data. Developed from several years of research.

That post and thread and site all tell you what the 5x stands for. It is neither 5x normal hit nor just a plain quintuple damage modifier. It is used in a damage formula that is explained indepth in both my post and on that site. Can't read japanese, that's ok... my post is in English.

[Anakron]

To your credit, Spider-Dan, I agree that your theory seems more logical, but damn, you think you could try proving your point without seemingly adding "I'm right and you're wrong...dumbass" at the end of every post? I enjoy reading your posts and the logic that they follow, but even so, I see how condescending your posts are...imagine how it might be for those that are actually debating against you.

And yes, I understand how if you're right, then others must be wrong, and sometimes, it's their "fault" for not accepting that they're wrong, but this happens almost every forum in which I see you arguing a point (No, I'm not stalking you. I read a lot about all the jobs). That might suggest that the problem is at least partially within the tone of your posts.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
No. You mean when you THINK it's called for. I.e. when you THINK other information is false.

WTF? Yes, I make the decision to criticize posts based on when I think it's called for. When else CAN I do it... when YOU think it's called for? Give me a break.

Wait, a model without any testing or backup?

Did you ignore the backup that I stated right after I said the word "model"?

TP return indicates that it is not multihit. No matter how you slice it, you can't multiply a normal shot by 4 (or 5!) and get anything near average Sidewinder damage. The in-game description says quadruple damage.

All of the above IS my backup. Feel free to present your counterevidence.

Very true. Convenient that you only concede to this argument when it supports your claims. If it could be a typo in either case, why do you automatically flame those that believe in the case that isn't yours? Just because S-E definition is "official"? It could still be a typo.

Actually, I was trying to point out (by comparison) how ridiculous the typo defense is. If we are going to start throwing around the typo defense, then we can't believe any stat in the game. This increases our understanding how?

Plus, as far as I know, gobli has done more research on weaponskills than any data I've seen presented from S-E (since they don't want to reveal the ingame mechanics).

I'm still waiting for you to cite data on HOW they arrived at 5X. I don't see any information on how they arrived at the magic number of 5X instead of 4X, only that they did. Without the supporting data, there is very little reason to believe them over Squenix. Surely you can't be this blind.

Well, I hate to sound like a 5th grader, but "duh." Everyone already knows this. The fact is you're the only one acting like you DO nkow how everything works.

Again, can you follow your own logic? You agree with me that no one on this forum can KNOW how the game works, then turn around and accuse me of claiming to KNOW how the game works. Right after I specifically say that NO ONE CAN. OK.

Let's shortcut this particular area of the discussion. No one except Squenix knows anything about this game with 100% certainty (and apparently, not even they do, according to some). Therefore, all discussion in this forum is, to varying levels, hypothetical.

Some hypothetical discussion has more evidence than others. In this case, I think there is enough evidence for Sidewinder as one hit @ quad damage that we can regard it as as close to a fact as we can get.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
But defense is only calculated once right? So where is the problem here? Your STR and ATK don't change for the WS, so according to dan's logic, the damage reduction should remain the same. Shouldn't these 2 numbers remain the same then?

While DEF is only subtracted once, I believe VIT is factored differently. Otherwise, Sidewinder would do very close to the same damage on every mob type.

I would like to point out that this "problem" is in no way solved by making Sidewinder 5X damage. Furthermore, why are you so vigorously disputing the in-game description with a data set (from Gobli) that is suspect to begin with? Not only did you yourself say that the Archery WS system was not fully tested, but they have Flaming Arrow listed with the same damage modifier for 100%, 200%, and 300% TP. So Flaming Arrow does the same damage at 100% as 300%? And we're taking the word of this site over Squenix?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
That post and thread and site all tell you what the 5x stands for. It is neither 5x normal hit nor just a plain quintuple damage modifier. It is used in a damage formula that is explained indepth in both my post and on that site. Can't read japanese, that's ok... my post is in English.

According to that site, it is a 5x multiplier; no more, no less. (Note that 5x damage on one hit is not the same as doing 5 normal hits, for all the reasons I've already said.)

The easy way to see past all the formulas is to look at Wasp Sting, which does the damage of a normal hit + poison effect (TP affects poison duration). It is listed as 1.00 TP effect. Therefore, all the rest of the formula is just plain old damage calculation.

The same logic applies when you read the Sidewinder calculation.

[Spider-Dan]

I'd like to point out one more thing.

When discussing this game, you must take one of two positions by default; either you believe the information stated in the game to be canonical, or you do not. This is not to say that you must continue to believe all information to be true, but simply a starting position.

If you do not believe the information to be true by default, then you can take nothing for granted, and you would have to test every aspect of the game for yourself. This would be taking large leaps backward in our understanding of the game.

If you do believe the information to be true by default, then in order to change your mind, you should need to see data that supports a different conclusion.

As of now, I have seen no data that supports another conclusion as more likely than the in-game description.

[Asurasan]

About the third eye thing stated above. I am 100% positive it will not avoid a monsters ranged attack. If the same holds true in ballista then I doubt you can avoid any hits. One more thing about third eye, you can dodge muliti hit attacks with it, not just one of the hits. I.e. Goblin rush, Combo and such.

Just remember, third eye and blink have totally different properties, with blink the monster has a chance of "Guessing Right sometimes". With third eye, you WILL anticipate the next melee attack directed at you.

Its been a while since I watched Bloodberry's pvp vids. But a good way to see if third eye really does anything, is watch the icon.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
WTF? Yes, I make the decision to criticize posts based on when I think it's called for. When else CAN I do it... when YOU think it's called for? Give me a break.

Last time I checked there is a difference between criticism and derogatory flaming. If someone disagrees with you, you act EXTREMELY condescending towards them, as if you are always right. This is why I wonder if you are self aware in the least. Can you even see how much of an asshole you are? I try to be polite when I can, but when you act like an asshat to every person who disagrees with you, sometimes I have to make an exception.

All of the above IS my backup. Feel free to present your counterevidence.

While DEF is only subtracted once, I believe VIT is factored differently. Otherwise, Sidewinder would do very close to the same damage on every mob type.

Where is your evidence? Where is your backup? Wait, you don't have any except you "assume" that's how it works because otherwise it doesn't follow your logic. Convenient.

I will give you my "counterevidence" in my next post.

I'm still waiting for you to cite data on HOW they arrived at 5X. I don't see any information on how they arrived at the magic number of 5X instead of 4X, only that they did. Without the supporting data, there is very little reason to believe them over Squenix. Surely you can't be this blind.

I already said that the places they have not done complete testing is with TP increases in those 4 weapons, not the intial 100% TP modifier itself. Are you too "blind" to understand that they have been testing this for months? Oh wait, you are "blind" because you will just say "the site is in Japanese, that means I can't understand it and the information is subsequently irrelevant!"

Geez.

Again, can you follow your own logic? You agree with me that no one on this forum can KNOW how the game works, then turn around and accuse me of claiming to KNOW how the game works. Right after I specifically say that NO ONE CAN. OK.

Just because you can say this now doesn't mean you actually believe it or act like it. It's all about tone and attitude, and yours conveys one of a person so annoyingly full of himself that everyone else is inferior. Or wait, do you lack self-awareness? Sorry if I keep repeating this point, but it sure seems like this is the only logical explanation. If you really understand that YOU are not perfect and YOU can be wrong, why bother flaming everyone who disagrees with you? Why not politely respond with your own beliefs as to how things work, instead of acting like an almighty ass all the time?

Some hypothetical discussion has more evidence than others. In this case, I think there is enough evidence for Sidewinder as one hit @ quad damage that we can regard it as as close to a fact as we can get.

To use your own argument against, you, WHAT EVIDENCE? All you have is the WS description. Then you have your 'assumption' that it is just a 4x damage hit with defense reduced once, but I already exposed that to be wrong of itself. So you added in another piece of info you conveniently forgot to mention , where *somehow* VIT is calculated differently so that your theory still works. Wait, do you know HOW it works differently? No. So where is your evidence that it is a 4x hit? Oh, jus the WS description, and that's it. Your little 'it's a 4x hit with only 1hit worth of defense subtracted' theory has already been thrown out the window.

[imac2much]

Here is your precious counterevidence.
I am a level 56 RNG, using SJ WAR to up my ATK some more with Berserk, and Meat mithkabob for a little overkill. I experimented on level 1 worms in North Gustaberg. Here is my equipment, stats, and attack rating:



I proceeded to try 3 test runs. I used normal attacks and Sidewinders on worms with E-bow + Scorpion Arrow.

Test 1:


Test 2:


Test 3:


In your theory, Sidewinder should equal exactly 4 x normal hit, since my STR and ATK is so far greater than a lvl 1 monster's VIT and DEF.
Regular hit = 375 (extremely consistent)
Sidewinder = 2265 ~ 2275
375 x 4 = 1500
Are you saying a level 1 worm somehow has enough defense and VIT to throw off my calculations somehow? Or wait, maybe the weapon skill description is WRONG? That sure as hell does not look like quadruple damage to me.

This is not to say it is just 5x either, since 375 x 5 = 1875. But Studio Gobli never said it is 5x, it just said that the WS damage modifier is 5x, but the calculation to determine actual WS damage is far more complex than that. However, YOU were the one preaching how S-E's ingame definition MUST be right. No matter how you cut it, Sidewinder is not a quadruple damage attack.

I think the reason why the description says quadruple is because the animation shows 4 'piercing arrow' animations attack the monster consecutively when you use it. That's just my guess, take it for what you will. Regardless, you are wrong, and I've backed it up. Happy?

[Jonishush]

Spider-Dan, stop using the word "Squenix" Its pretty damn childish and annoying, Just admit you got owned.

I posted a picture about another idiot on the forum.. BUT, since Im feeling nice tonight, I'll find it for you :angel:

Also, I know your pathetic assface of a life, will come on here look for a good excuse as to insult me and then you'll go for my level... yes Im level 10 And Proud of it.


Here ya go "Buddy Ol' Pal"




Aww, How cute *I think your the brown one.. Not sure*

And to finish off my post, AND to help you I suggest
you do what this picture instructs you to do.



I made that last one by my self..

[Spider-Dan]

imac, are you aware that there is a DAMAGE CAP on normal attacks? Do you find it strange that when you use Berserk and use ranged attack on a LV1 mob, your normal damage does not increase one bit?

Congratulations, you've "discovered" what I already posted a page ago (read the thread much?):

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
As far as testing against TWTBW mobs, one of two situations occurs. Either their defense is so low that you are hitting the damage cap on normal ranged attacks (in which case Sidewinder does a lot more damage than four hits because Sidewinder is not capped), or their defense is high enough to keep you from hitting cap on /ra (in which case Sidewinder does a lot more damage than four hits because their defense is high enough to make the single-defense-deduction significant).

Do you really imagine that I hadn't tried a test like this months ago? It's not some sort of profound breakthrough:



Slug Shot landed for 33xx damage, as I recall. I will be happy to post the pic when I get home. It will prove nothing.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Last time I checked there is a difference between criticism and derogatory flaming.

And thanks for being the judge of what does and does not cross the line.

Wait, I thought this tangent was about MY self-absorption?

If someone disagrees with you, you act EXTREMELY condescending towards them, as if you are always right. This is why I wonder if you are self aware in the least.

No, actually, I do that in specific circumstances, when I decide that it's warranted (how dare I make that decision!).

The ridiculously ironic part of this is that I specifically went out of my way in my original reply to you NOT to reply in any sort of inflammatory fashion (check the thread if you don't believe me), because you have repeatedly complained about it in the past. And you still went ballistic anyway. What a waste of effort on my part.

Where is your evidence? Where is your backup? Wait, you don't have any except you "assume" that's how it works because otherwise it doesn't follow your logic. Convenient.

Tell you what... since you are the one claiming that Squenix doesn't know WTF they are talking about, I think the onus of proof is on you.

The direct statement of Sidewinder's properties from the makers of the game is really all the proof I need. Even if you conclusively disprove my single-defense-subtraction explanation of the help text, that does jack-sh*t to provide any sort of reason to believe that Sidewinder is 5X.

Which, lest we forget, was my entire objection in the first place. No one has provided any evidence to prove that Sidewinder is 5X. And from the looks of it, you've given up even trying (I've asked for proof three times already).

I already said that the places they have not done complete testing is with TP increases in those 4 weapons, not the intial 100% TP modifier itself. Are you too "blind" to understand that they have been testing this for months? Oh wait, you are "blind" because you will just say "the site is in Japanese, that means I can't understand it and the information is subsequently irrelevant!"

Can you answer the question? Where is the evidence that Sidewinder is 5X? Where is the evidence that is supposed to discredit Squenix?

You haven't cited it, because the only "evidence" you have is the chart itself! That's like saying that the Bible is true because it says so in the Bible.* Nice.

To use your own argument against, you, WHAT EVIDENCE? All you have is the WS description.

Don't you see the gaping hole in this statement?

"What evidence do you have that Emperor Hairpin is Evasion +10? All you have is the item description."

Repeat ad infinitum.

*You can replace "Bible" with the holy book of your choice.

[iglak]

Originally posted by imac2much
iglak/Yatsu, you make some good points, and I otherwise would agree with your claims. However, no offense, but did you read through this entire post or just the last 2 pages? I never said Sidewinder is 5x regular hit. It is dan only who is saying that sidewinder is '4x regular hit with defense subtracted only once.' My recent arguments were included solely to disprove that, and not to reinforce the 5x statement.

Here is a post on the second page that referenced one of my threads involving weapon skills (semi-translated from Studio Gobli):



That post and thread and site all tell you what the 5x stands for. It is neither 5x normal hit nor just a plain quintuple damage modifier. It is used in a damage formula that is explained indepth in both my post and on that site. Can't read japanese, that's ok... my post is in English.

actually, i read through the entire post except the last page, i skimmed through that. my mistake, i should have read through the referenced thread, i understand now.

so i assume their formulas are based on the average damages of a lot of uses of the weaponskill? and with a lot of changes in stats one at a time... yes, that would take months and months.

does it say how they know the enemy's VIT and DEF stats? was all of this done in Ballista?

is the "WD" predicted to be the damage of a normal hit also?

[poweryoga]

You keep saying "SE said it".... I'd like to see the interview for the sidewinder statement. You have no data to back up anything you're saying other than the fact "SE said it".

And thanks for being the judge of what does and does not cross the line.

Last I checked, other people judge you and see how you act and decide if you're being condescending towards other people. but you're saying the only one allowed to judge you is yourself? Other people who judge you are "self absorbed"? God forbid people judge you for the way you're acting.

Lets put it this way... rugal is putting so much effort and throwing so much data (i won't use the word proof) at you saying its 5x....

And I find this funny...

Which, lest we forget, was my entire objection in the first place. No one has provided any evidence to prove that Sidewinder is 5X. And from the looks of it, you've given up even trying (I've asked for proof three times already).

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/memo.html

Wasn't this the page of debate? The one that has like 3-4 months worth of data collecting, damage forumla speculation, 10+ pages of the proof that you're simply throwing out the window because you can't read japanese? You know, the part you conveniently left out in all your replies regarding "proof" that you want? Proof is provided, but its not what you want, so its useless?

Do you want proof, or stuff that goes along with what you believe? Backwards learning is not back in style is it?

Isn't the way to finding a solution to find the problem, and then the solution? You're finding your assumption and nailing everyone else around you till they all give up? How do you learn?

Why don't you show some data to back up your statement that sidewinder is indeed 4x damage?

A debate with only one side providing data and experimental values isn't really a debate at all, its you discrediting him and being too stubborn to believe you can actually be wrong.

You're neither the alpha nor the omega.