sa+sidewinder.. {Yes please}

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
...

I already explained how Sidewinder works.

Chill down and take a freakin reality check. You're not the master of this game. Your word is not the end-all be-all of this game. If someone disagrees with you, sometimes it's worth it to take a second look and give them credit instead of automatically becoming defensive so as to never change your own beliefs. Relax and realize no one is perfect. Not even you. You may be right sometimes, but you may be wrong sometimes; your haughty attitude isn't enough proof to show that you're always right.

Let's see. Studio Gobli did a ton of testing. Most likely more than you. Yet because they do not agree with you, they are automatically wrong or imperfect.

Of *COURSE* their data is imperfect. They are purely testing with the end result (the game itself), and do not have insight into the actual gameplay mechanics of FFXI. But last time I checked, neither do you.

It's obvious that neither you nor I nor any of us other gamers know exactly how damage works.

You do NOT know how Sidewinder works. You merely guess to how it works with your experience and hearsay. Repeat: you do NOT know how sidewinder works.

4x? 5x? Does it really matter? Not really, but you're the one who brought light to this silly debate in the first place.

You used this statement to "prove" that sidewinder MUST be quadruple damage:

And now we have progressed from disagreeing with information stated in interviews to information given inside the game.

I already addressed the fact that in-game information is not always accurate!

My position has never been that Squenix can't be wrong, but just that if one is going to claim something that contradicts one of their statements, one better have a damn solid foundation to make such a claim.

Have you even been to that website? Have you seen the extensive testing and graphs they posted showing their months of testing (in their included links)? I don't trust this site "just because they're Japanese." I trust it because they have so much testing to back them up. Yes, I already said some of their TP mitigation is incomplete for certain WS, but the initial damage modifier of Sidewinder is 5x; has nothing to do with the damage modifier as TP increases (which is constant).

This is a "damn solid foundation." Just because we ourselves didn't do the testing doesn't make it any less "solid." It is more than you yourself have ever done. All you did was take a screenshot, snip out the description of sidewinder and post it in your reply. Great.

I think anyone who wants to believe sidewinder has a 5x damage modifier is totally free to believe that; they DO have proof from a reliable source. Yes, this source is not perfect, and they are still testing and testing, but since they don't have access to the actual gameplay mechanics (and neither do you), their data will never be "perfect."

I hate to personally point you and your posts out like this, but you seem to enjoy doing it to others so I guess you won't mind. Unless you're a hypocrite of course.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Chill down and take a freakin reality check. You're not the master of this game. Your word is not the end-all be-all of this game. If someone disagrees with you, sometimes it's worth it to take a second look and give them credit instead of automatically becoming defensive so as to never change your own beliefs. Relax and realize no one is perfect. Not even you. You may be right sometimes, but you may be wrong sometimes; your haughty attitude isn't enough proof to show that you're always right.

Your argument against Sidewinder being quadruple damage was explictly the fact that it does more damage than four hits.

I merely pointed out that I had already offered an explanation for that (i.e. RTFT).

Then you come back and accuse me of being haughty. ???

Let's see. Studio Gobli did a ton of testing. Most likely more than you. Yet because they do not agree with you, they are automatically wrong or imperfect.

No, because they disagree with the in-game description (which already matches a very well-known damage model for Sidewinder), I would need to see a huge amount of data to believe that Sidewinder is conclusively NOT 4X, and MUST be 5X.

Of *COURSE* their data is imperfect. They are purely testing with the end result (the game itself), and do not have insight into the actual gameplay mechanics of FFXI. But last time I checked, neither do you.

And last time I checked, the one party that DOES have insight (Squenix) says that it's 4X. Yet you dismiss that.

I already addressed the fact that in-game information is not always accurate!

Seeing as how I made that statement in direct response to another (quoted!) post, can you please keep your attributions straight? I obviously wasn't talking to you.

Have you even been to that website? Have you seen the extensive testing and graphs they posted showing their months of testing (in their included links)? I don't trust this site "just because they're Japanese." I trust it because they have so much testing to back them up.

Once again, RTFT. I already stated that I can't read Japanese, and asked for any data on that site that was substantial enough to contradict the in-game description.

P.S. I notice that in your long diatribe against my claimed elitism, you totally failed to even address the explanation I gave for Sidewinder's damage output.

[Timoham]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Sidewinder is one hit. Look at your TP return. Case closed.

No shit it only gives you TP for one hit. But if it only hit once, third eye would blink it. Explain that? kthx.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Your argument against Sidewinder being quadruple damage was explictly the fact that it does more damage than four hits.

I merely pointed out that I had already offered an explanation for that (i.e. RTFT).

Then you come back and accuse me of being haughty. ???

Hahaha... slow down there. So you deny that you are haughty? That is probably the most hilarious thing I have ever read in any of your posts. Self-awareness is something some people don't have.

I admit that I am not perfect and sometimes I (and everyone else) can be wrong. In most of your posts, you seem to just assume you are right and everyone else is wrong. Your very attitude and tone in which you address people you disagree with is arrogant and haughty. You don't even realize that? I thought you were being an ass on purpose.

No, because they disagree with the in-game description (which already matches a very well-known damage model for Sidewinder), I would need to see a huge amount of data to believe that Sidewinder is conclusively NOT 4X, and MUST be 5X.

Eh? What damage model? Please refer me to this damage model. And not just your 'observations' and 'assumptions' please. BTW they do have a huge amount of data... did you even look at the posts and related links like I asked? What are you asking for, a 100 page research report?

[QUOTE]
Seeing as how I made that statement in direct response to another (quoted!) post, can you please keep your attributions straight? I obviously wasn't talking to you.[/QUTE]

Seeing as how you keep bringing up the SAME argument, even in this very reply:

And last time I checked, the one party that DOES have insight (Squenix) says that it's 4X. Yet you dismiss that.

..obviously it is still relevant to the argument. Just because you didn't reply directly to me about that doesn't mean you never said it. You still stood by that claim in your reply to me, so I had every right to reply to it.

P.S. I notice that in your long diatribe against my claimed elitism, you totally failed to even address the explanation I gave for Sidewinder's damage output.

I never addressed it because it is imperfect. It is just your assumption and it is NOT necessarily how sidewinder works. You are claiming that it is DEFINITELY how sidewinder works. How the hell do you know that? Just because you like making several arrogant and caustic posts on a forum? No matter how smart you wish to think you are, you do not know how the game works. So stop acting like you do.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Hahaha... slow down there. So you deny that you are haughty?

Only when it's called for, which is almost exclusively when someone is trying to correct others with false information. Don't believe me? Check my posts.

Generally, the only time in which I make a response that I would consider "aggressive" is when someone tries to act like they know what they are talking about with poor support for their position. (And yes, I expect myself to be held to the same standard.)

Eh? What damage model? Please refer me to this damage model. And not just your 'observations' and 'assumptions' please.

The damage model is that Sidewinder is one hit WS that does quadruple damage. It is not a new model.

I have no clue what you are talking about when you say "not just your observations and assumptions." Do you know what a model is?

Sidewinder as a one hit, 4X damage WS is reconcilable with a) the damage output b) the TP return c) logic (it would make no sense for the enemy defense to be subtracted more than once for a one-hit WS).

BTW they do have a huge amount of data... did you even look at the posts and related links like I asked? What are you asking for, a 100 page research report?

For the third time, I can't read Japanese. However, based on the available links on that site, I don't see any numbers that even look like an explanation of how they came up with the 5X (vs. 4X) multiplier. It's very nice and good that they have lots of data, and in cases where that data does not specifically contradict statements from Squenix, I would have no problem deferring by default. But in the case of Sidewinder, I'd need to see why they think it's 5X. If you see that particular data on that site, feel free to cite it.

I could just as easily use the "typo" argument against the Gobli data, just as you (plural) use it against Squenix.

I never addressed it because it is imperfect. It is just your assumption and it is NOT necessarily how sidewinder works. You are claiming that it is DEFINITELY how sidewinder works.

Please cite this statement. Otherwise, stop putting words in my mouth.

I said, "I already explained how Sidewinder works," in direct response to your post where you say that it "OBVIOUSLY cannot be 4X damage" because it does more damage than 4 hits. You were saying that it CANNOT work as the description says. I was saying that it can, it does, and I already explained how.

No one posting on this forum (or any other) knows how this game works. I thought that everyone understood that all post content was subject to this fact. Do you need a specific disclaimer on every post?

[Apple Pie]

It's not related to the topic.

If you guys are interested, shoot Sidewinder on Wild Rabbits (LV-1) or Tunnel Worms (LV-1) in East/West Ronfaure and get some damage samples with the same gears.

Then, please report the typical damage and the highest one. Remember to attach the following info --- your LV, stats, and gears.

I believe LV59+ RNGs attack is capped against LV-1 creatures but please make sure to have as much attack (e.g., eat attack+ foods) as possible.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Timoham
No shit it only gives you TP for one hit. But if it only hit once, third eye would blink it. Explain that? kthx.

In order to do that, I would need to know two things:

a) Third Eye definitely absorbs ranged WS
b) Third Eye was active in the (one?) situation where you saw it "fail" to absorb Sidewinder

In every situation I've ever seen, and every situation I can test, Sidewinder acts exactly like a 1-hit WS, from damage, to TP return, to accuracy. If Sidewinder were multihit, you would get more than one shot of TP return from it, the damage range would be MUCH wider than it is (look at, say, Guillotine), it would do much less damage against low-level mobs that you can kill in one normal attack, it would be possible to land Sidewinder on targets with Utsusemi up, and the accuracy would be much better.

One claimed incident of Third Eye purportedly absorbing part of Sidewinder doesn't even begin to outweigh all of the reproducible factors that clearly indicate that it's one hit.

[Timoham]

I'll have to see if I can find the videos (plural) just for you. They tested it 5 or 6 times and everytime they used third eye, sidewinder did significantly less damage (100 atleast) than without. And everytime sidewinder hit regardless of third eye being up or not.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Timoham
I'll have to see if I can find the videos (plural) just for you. They tested it 5 or 6 times and everytime they used third eye, sidewinder did significantly less damage (100 atleast) than without.

This is within the normal damage variance for Sidewinder anyway. If Sidewinder was (for example) 4 hits then you would expect a ~25% damage cut by missing one of them.

And everytime sidewinder hit regardless of third eye being up or not.

So how do you know that Third Eye stops (or can stop) ranged WS, then?

[Timoham]

I must cede a point, I made a mistake. They were using third eye and blocking part of barrage apparently.

http://www.bloodberry.ch/samurai_duel.zip

But it's still interesting that barrage hits even through third eye. I had originally thought third eye worked exactly like one shadow of blink, but if that were the case then all of barrage would have missed, not just part of it.

But to get back onto the 4x versus 5x... I hit knight crawlers for 120 on a regular shot consistantly. Sidewinder does anywhere between 900 and 1,000 damage. On Crabs, I do about 90 damage with 500ish sidewinders. If defense was only calculated on one "hit" of sidewinder, then wouldn't I be doing the same sort of damage for sidewinder on crabs as I do crawlers? Not 1,000, but not 500 either really.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
I believe LV59+ RNGs attack is capped against LV-1 creatures but please make sure to have as much attack (e.g., eat attack+ foods) as possible.

Yes, it is capped. Against ~LV12 mobs in Tahrongi Canyon, my damage (at LV58) is capped. Adding STR or ATK (or both, via mithkabob) does not increase my damage output.

I think people should also include their Archery skill (if not capped) in any submitted logs. The most reliable damage calculation formula I've seen has a component that translates into higher combat skill raising your damage cap, and if your skill is not completely capped, that could affect the outcome.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Only when it's called for, which is almost exclusively when someone is trying to correct others with false information. Don't believe me? Check my posts.

No. You mean when you THINK it's called for. I.e. when you THINK other information is false. You also think you are always correct. Do you know what this implies?

You are haughty and an ass to anyone who disagrees with you.

The damage model is that Sidewinder is one hit WS that does quadruple damage. It is not a new model.

I have no clue what you are talking about when you say "not just your observations and assumptions." Do you know what a model is?

Sidewinder as a one hit, 4X damage WS is reconcilable with a) the damage output b) the TP return c) logic (it would make no sense for the enemy defense to be subtracted more than once for a one-hit WS).

Wait, a model without any testing or backup? You mean a damage THEORY? You only *guess* as to how it works, you do not know for sure nor have you done extensive testing on it so stop acting like you do. All you have to back you up is a WS description, and the fact you *think* your explanation makes sense.

I could just as easily use the "typo" argument against the Gobli data, just as you (plural) use it against Squenix.

Very true. Convenient that you only concede to this argument when it supports your claims. If it could be a typo in either case, why do you automatically flame those that believe in the case that isn't yours? Just because S-E definition is "official"? It could still be a typo. Plus, as far as I know, gobli has done more research on weaponskills than any data I've seen presented from S-E (since they don't want to reveal the ingame mechanics).

No one posting on this forum (or any other) knows how this game works. I thought that everyone understood that all post content was subject to this fact. Do you need a specific disclaimer on every post?

Well, I hate to sound like a 5th grader, but "duh." Everyone already knows this. The fact is you're the only one acting like you DO nkow how everything works. Oh wait, you don't? Then stop flaming everyone who disagrees with you.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Timoham
But to get back onto the 4x versus 5x... I hit knight crawlers for 120 on a regular shot consistantly. Sidewinder does anywhere between 900 and 1,000 damage. On Crabs, I do about 90 damage with 500ish sidewinders. If defense was only calculated on one "hit" of sidewinder, then wouldn't I be doing the same sort of damage for sidewinder on crabs as I do crawlers? Not 1,000, but not 500 either really.

This is a very good point. I am lvl 55, capped archery and markmanship, eurytos bow and musk gun +1. On crawlers my bow hits for ~130 an arrow with scorpion arrow. I do about 1000-1200 with sidewinder. On crabs my bow does ~90 an arrow, and does 600-750 with sidewinder.

If the defense checks (both atk vs defense and str vs vit) were only calculated once, then let's just subtract a regular hit (which has defense check inside it) from the total WS damage.

Crawler = 1100 - 130 = 970
Crab = 700 - 90 = 610

Holy cow, these numbers don't match up! But defense is only calculated once right? So where is the problem here? Your STR and ATK don't change for the WS, so according to dan's logic, the damage reduction should remain the same. Shouldn't these 2 numbers remain the same then?

[poweryoga]

Once upon a time, everyone thought the earth was flat, and if you believed otherwise, you get burned at the stake. Fastforward to now, here we are, earth is round. whoamg!!11eleventy!!

On topic: I also believe the description for sidewinder is wrong... it obviously does more than mere 4x amount. I do say... 120 a shot, and my skills do about 600-700. Any way you look at it, its more than 120 x 4 = 480. I don't see why there's people so adamantly defending it saying "IT IS GOD!! ALL OTHERS ARE WRONG"

[iglak]

Originally posted by poweryoga
On topic: I also believe the description for sidewinder is wrong... it obviously does more than mere 4x amount. I do say... 120 a shot, and my skills do about 600-700. Any way you look at it, its more than 120 x 4 = 480. I don't see why there's people so adamantly defending it saying "IT IS GOD!! ALL OTHERS ARE WRONG"

an explanation for that was already addressed by both sides of this debate, this is an invalid and obsolete argument.

Once upon a time, everyone thought the earth was flat, and if you believed otherwise, you get burned at the stake. Fastforward to now, here we are, earth is round. whoamg!!11eleventy!!

the same thing can be said about both sides.



the fastest way to come to an answer is to read the Japanese site that was referenced.

specifically, does it say that Sidewinder uses a 5x damage multiplier, or does it merely state that the average damage of Sidewinder is equal to 5x normal hit damage?

If the defense checks (both atk vs defense and str vs vit) were only calculated once, then let's just subtract a regular hit (which has defense check inside it) from the total WS damage.

Crawler = 1100 - 130 = 970
Crab = 700 - 90 = 610

Holy cow, these numbers don't match up! But defense is only calculated once right? So where is the problem here? Your STR and ATK don't change for the WS, so according to dan's logic, the damage reduction should remain the same. Shouldn't these 2 numbers remain the same then?

it is believed the STR has a 1:1 ratio of STR:damage dealt, and that VIT is the same.
attack and defense are much more unknown, they could be based on a percentage formula, or a formula similar to resisting magic damage. if that is the case, then since Crabs have a much higher DEF, those numbers would make sense.

but if the damage is only 5x, then 130 should divide into 1100 close to 5 times, as should 90 into 700.
1100 / 130 = 8.46
700 / 90 = 7.78