E-Bow.. Worth it?

[greysenn]

If you're suggesting that 3 Racc makes 10% difference in total damage, then with 10 racc there is no debate about /nin or /war doing more damage. Oh wait, there is. But we don't really need to re-live those flamer posts do we?

Anycase, I don't give a rats ass if my accuracy fluxuates 5, 10 or 20%. Unfortunately, it's not always consistant from day to day. Sidewinder accuracy is not consistant from day to day.

If what you are saying is true, and people can just have "bad days" (meaning, specifically, that you do significantly worse for no reason at all) then you are essentially saying that the game is so random that no matter how much data you gather, any results you get boil down to dumb luck; the corollary of this argument is that there is no point in getting quality equipment because your performance is going to be controlled by good day/bad day anyway!

No, I'm suggesting that while it definetly may improve your average, there is still a random factor to it. His parse was taken all in the same sitting. Does this mean the e-bow is going to outdamage this gun in another? No, it dosen't. I think the gun will probably (and should for it's expense of using) kick the e-bows ass any day of the week. But their hit rates may certainly vary some.

[poweryoga]

christ, you're still at it?

Everyone has on and off days. One day I can hit every single sidewinder at 100% tp, other day I can miss every single shot at 300% tp. Its luck and its a randomness factor you'll have to accept as margin of error.

The statement that WB+1 beats Sarnga pre-60 but loses post-60 is an excellent example of this. Since Sarnga is a LV59 weapon, how do you know Sarnga loses at LV59 (for exactly one level) but then wins as soon as you level up?

stop nitpicking on every little wording I use. The accuracy concern comes into play because you move to raptors/toramas at lvl 60, which has fucking high evasion, and Warbow +1 doesn't do as well. Its not because I gained a lvl and everything is "magically better". Its the stuff you exp on. For christ's sake, thought you'd know better than that.

If you are at a 10% accuracy handicap, not only would you have to do 10% more damage per hit, but your WS would have to do MORE than that (seeing as how you have 10% less TP and will have an even greater handicap on WS accuracy).

The weapon skills E-bow does more than covers the 10% gap, but that's besides the point. Nobody is saying there needs to be a 10% disadvantage, you're making shit up as you go along. I said 10% is an acceptable error margin for testing purposes, not 1 person has a 10% advantage over another. Good job for misreading and putting words in my mouth.

Again, for the huge sample collecting thing. shit still happens, I'm not going to incorporate randomness factor and luck into this argument because that'll just give you more things to be unhappy about. 1000 shots is not even a big enough sample as that is easily covered in 1 exp party. In a big enough sample, 10% is not going to affect the outcome much. Sure, in 1 sitting it might. Over the course of 10 or so Exp parties it won't. That's probably the equivalent of probably a mere 10k damage out of 100k worth of damage, which is insignificant. If you're telling me "omg, 10k damage is a lot over the course of shooting 219387432942 arrows...", then maybe you should go back and re-read some basic stuff on statistics and maybe even 3-sigma.

Give it a rest, I wish you luck on your holy crusade to prove that the E-bow is the crappiest bow ever though sheer stubborness and unwillingness to listen to other people.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
Everyone has on and off days. One day I can hit every single sidewinder at 100% tp, other day I can miss every single shot at 300% tp. Its luck and its a randomness factor you'll have to accept as margin of error.

I think that over the course of one thousand Sidewinders you would be able to determine whether accuracy bonuses make a difference. Let's keep sample size in perspective, here. I'm not talking about missing 5 Sidewinders in a row (i.e. "a bad day") or anything of such tiny statistical value.

stop nitpicking on every little wording I use. The accuracy concern comes into play because you move to raptors/toramas at lvl 60, which has fucking high evasion, and Warbow +1 doesn't do as well. Its not because I gained a lvl and everything is "magically better". Its the stuff you exp on.

That's great, but you're sidestepping my point. I was the one who brought up the fact that logs showed Sarnga winning (contrary to popular estimation from eyeball damage parsing), so explaining why it wins is preaching to the choir.

My question is, how do you know that Sarnga loses at LV59? You're just eyeballing accuracy and supposing that Sarnga's accuracy won't make a difference against non-high-evasion mobs.

1000 shots is not even a big enough sample as that is easily covered in 1 exp party.

How is this at all relevant? 1000 shots is 1000 shots. It is a sample size of one thousand. That is statistically significant, by definition. The number of exp parties is not even a factor.

In a big enough sample, 10% is not going to affect the outcome much. Sure, in 1 sitting it might. Over the course of 10 or so Exp parties it won't.

...?!?!?!

10% is still 10%! If it's over one party, or one hundred, it's still 10%! It affects the outcome EXACTLY the same (by ten percent)!

You tell me that I need to re-read some basic statistics, when you say stuff like this?

The bottom line is this: you cannot eyeball statistics. Statistical analysis by guesstimation has been shown NOT to work, time and time again. I know that you are vehemently opposed to using a log parser, but I would encourage you (for your own sake) to actually try logging an exp party and comparing what you think your accuracy is against what the parser says your accuracy is... especially if you think that you regularly get 90% accuracy while exping. I will send you a stack of silvers (or demons, if you prefer) if you actually get 90% accuracy against IT mobs with an O-bow.

[imac2much]

.....You *do* realize that, by the nature of the game and EXP CHAIN system, damage in bursts is far more important and vital than damage over time right?

This is the main draw for E-bow.

It doesn't matter if other bows make up for the lesser WS damage by doing a few extra hits in or some other crap. When it all comes down to it, it's how fast you can end those chain 4,5, and 6's, and when it comes to that, it's ALL about the damage in burst.

You save up something for the last few chains (MP, TP, JA like barrage, whatever), then you unleash it in your primal fury to get that extra 40% or whatever EXP. This is what truly smart and good parties do... maybe not what the majority of parties do, but we're not talking about the average Joe are we?

I don't want to nitpick or flame every little freakin word anyone says, so I'm just stating something I thought was common knowledge in the high end game.

This is also why DRK/THF is preferred to DRK/WAR. Hate control is only the secondary factor in this case. A DRK/WAR would end a lvl 3 skillchain with a 600-700 damage WS with 500-800 damage dark/light bonus. Tough, but I can keep aggro from that. A DRK/THF will hit for 1-1.2k damage WS and 800-1.5k damage dark/light (I'm not making up numbers, this is what I see. I don't need to parse my logs to remember the big numbers). They usually don't even trick onto me, usually some other melee. Why? Cuz that freakin huge damage will generally kill the monster anyway (or close to kill). And if it doesn't? Magic burst that shit with Firaga III or whatever. Dead mob, XP chain 5/6.

I don't care that DRK/WAR does much more damage over time than DRK/THF. This goes without question. Due to double attack, berserk, warcry, DRK/WAR will *always* outdamage a DRK/THF and always gain TP faster as well. If a DRK/WAR just spammed a WS every time he got 100% TP, he'd probably outdamage the DRK/THF by 150-200%.

So WHAT?? That's not the point of smart parties. You want damage in bursts. E-bow allows that. There's no question its sidewinders and arching arrows do more damage than any other bow. And with a BRD in PT for prelude, this is why RNG/WAR prevails in XP PTs. Even tho RNG/NIN is *safer* for the RNG, RNG/WAR will allow for the high xp chains with 1.5-2k damage sidewinders and 1k-1.5k arching arrows. (well those numbers were on darters, but you get the point)

Let's please stop the personal flaming, and just get this fact straight. For XP PT's, E-bow is the best bow hands down, if your PT is smart. As for gun vs bow, I don't know :sweat:

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
.....You *do* realize that, by the nature of the game and EXP CHAIN system, damage in bursts is far more important and vital than damage over time right?

This is the main draw for E-bow.

[...]

So WHAT?? That's not the point of smart parties. You want damage in bursts. E-bow allows that. There's no question its sidewinders and arching arrows do more damage than any other bow. And with a BRD in PT for prelude, this is why RNG/WAR prevails in XP PTs.

/sea all RNG 60-75

DRK/THF > DRK/WAR because you can use it in more parties with greater safety after SC. While a super PLD might be able to grab hate back after fully buffed /WAR Spinslash, what if you don't have a PLD tank? Raise?

The entire point of /NIN is increased total damage via better DPS (accuracy and extra hate buffer). If you want to talk about exp chains, a missed Sidewinder will stop your chain right there, won't it?

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
/sea all RNG 60-75

DRK/THF > DRK/WAR because you can use it in more parties with greater safety after SC. While a super PLD might be able to grab hate back after fully buffed /WAR Spinslash, what if you don't have a PLD tank? Raise?

The entire point of /NIN is increased total damage via better DPS (accuracy and extra hate buffer). If you want to talk about exp chains, a missed Sidewinder will stop your chain right there, won't it?

You seriously need to stay on track Dan. I don't want to flame or attack anyone, I hope you have the same respect. However, why do you need to nitpick at every single word I say without even discussing my actual POINT?

The POINT is that damage in bursts is more favorable than damage over time due to the xp chain system.

You want to argue that? Fine, argue that, I'm sure we can keep it a mature and intelligent discussion. However, stop bringing in obscure and *off-topic* points with the sole purpose of attempting to belittle my words.

I said RNG/WAR is favorable for the PT. Most RNG use /NIN at high level, however, so that they die less. It's common knowledge that RNG/WAR will die MUCH more often than RNG/NIN. However, which PT will make more XP assuming your tank is competent? The one with the RNG/WAR.

I have partied with SEVERAL RNG/WAR's in the past 3 or 4 levels since I returned from my hiatus. Only twice has a RNG/WAR died, and that was due to random bad luck. (RNG/WAR pulls the mob's hate with buffed up sidewinder so DRK/THF or THF can trick Shark Bite/Spin Slash on me... in that 5 second moment of vulnerability the Bark Spider ate the RNG with a well-timed Sickle Slash)

This may seem funny but... you know something weird? I don't remember a single Sidewinder ever missing in skillchain with these RNG/WARs. Recall that I said BRD is very important for RNG/WAR. With Hunter Prelude, Unlimited Shot+PPA (+40 ranged acc with that arrow alone), the RNG has never missed a Sidewinder, much less an Arching Arrow (which is use more prevalently past 66 anyway for Shark Bite and Spinning Slash). So please stop trying to take my words off track with some random comments.

Yes, I can keep hate from a DRK/WAR's Spin Slash. It generally does only about 6-700 damage. The problem is if they stack LR + SE at the same time... but a smart DRK won't do this anyway.

Don't have a PLD? Then get one. If you have a NIN, then OBVIOUSLY hate management is more important. I'm not even talking about this, I don't know why you have to bring this up. But FYI I'd *assume* (as I have no experience since I don't have a NIN) that RNG/WAR with BRD is perfect for this setup, since he can turn the mob without fail with Sidewinder/Arching arrow so the THF or /THF can trick onto the NIN.

The point of /NIN is slightly more DoT but more importantly the safety of the RNG. This is of course important as well, since a dear RNG/WAR will definitely cut back from your XP and PT's XP as you wait for rez sickness to go away. I said that in an ideal PT setup with good players, the nature of the xp chain system favors bursts of damage.

If you want to debate this, I would like to hear your arguments, I don't assume that I am the master of this game, and I'm sure as hell there are tons of things I do not know. But from my experience this is how I see the game. If you respond to my post, please try not to go off topic just to attack some example I threw in to prove a point. Respond to the point itself. Thank you.

[Spider-Dan]

I was addressing your point, albeit indirectly.

The point is that the additional burst damage is not necessarily more important (or beneficial) than overall DPS. You cite /WAR as proof that burst damage is more important, yet the vast majority of high-level RNGs sub NIN. (And as you mentioned, dying affects party exp flow, so that is a real factor.)

Furthermore, your argument is somewhat marginal anyway... you assume that a higher DPS weapon (or at least, the weapons in question) would be incapable or ineffective at chain 5 bursting, when that's likely the opposite of the case; higher accuracy + longer delay = more damage and TP from Barrage, which means you get a 2nd WS sooner.

[imac2much]

I'm glad we can keep this civil.

Actually, I was not actually citing /WAR as proof for anything. The initial point I was using as a given, is that /WAR does damage in *bursts* whereas /NIN does (perhaps) slightly more damage over time (though this is debatable).

I mean, I'm confused: are you trying to make yet another debate in this thread of 100 conflicts? Are you now saying that E-bow does NOT do larger damage in bursts than other bows? I felt that you assumed this as well as me, since your arguments pointed out that "People think Sarga is better than Battle Bow+1 because they see bigger numbers, though this may not be the case".

I'm addressing this point directly: You see bigger numbers with E-bow. Is this what you are debating now? Because if so, we are definitely on different pages... I didn't know this was even worth debating. I don't exactly need a parser to see which *numbers* are bigger.

Since you must have missed this since you didn't respond to this at all, let me state this again:
With a BRD for prelude and competent equipment on the RNG, the RNG/WAR will not only outdamage RNG/NIN in bursts but be very close, if not better, as /NIN over time. The bursts part I can 100% attest to since I do not need a parser for this. The DoT is more debatable, but just from what I've seen. I mean, these RNG/WAR don't use Unlimited Shot + PPA for every sidewinder due to refresh time, yet they still never miss as long as they have good equipment and Hunter's Prelude. So what makes you think they will miss drastically more than /NIN? The very REAL and easily proven fact is that /WAR will do a much stronger WS than /NIN. This is *NOT* debatable.

Do you know why most RNG sub NIN at high levels? Because for a pickup PT you can never know if your tank is credible or capable or not. It is overall safer and smarter to sub NIN so you don't die, losing precious xp and wasting time from xp'ing. It is not because NIN does much more damage or contributes to higher chains. The fact is, RNG are so powerful that even with lesser damage of /NIN they can do more damage in bursts than most other DD melees, with the exception of perhaps DRK/THF.

Also let me repeat that post 66 RNG use Arching instead of SW anyway, which almost never misses, even without a BRD in PT. And the amount of TP you make from Barrage doesn't matter much unless your RNG is not involved in skillchains... RNG always gains tp faster than the other melees regardless.

On a sidenote and off topic, RNG soloing WS is actually not as bad as you may think. In this case, I think I would prefer RNG/NIN in setup since we are not worried about damage in bursts, but high damage all the time. My PT setup was RNG/NIN, PLD/WAR, WAR/THF, BLM, RDM, BRD. As you probably know, WAR/THF is generally not used for hate management.. it is just the most damaging sub for a DD WAR (sneak attack for WS). I mean, who would he have tricked onto anyway, the RNG? oO RNG/NIN is much easier to keep hate from than a RNG/WAR, so I almost always had the mob on me, except when the RNG busted out with SW, barrage, SW (ouch!). As for skillchains, WAR and I did Mistral Axe > Spinning Slash so the BLM could burst Firaga III. (Who says PLD can't deal damage? I was Spin Slashing for 450-650 every time ^^) Think I made 5k an hour in this PT, very sweet. But very unconventional...

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Actually, I was not actually citing /WAR as proof for anything. The initial point I was using as a given, is that /WAR does damage in *bursts* whereas /NIN does (perhaps) slightly more damage over time (though this is debatable).

But you cited this point with the qualification that /WAR "prevails in exp PTs" because of it. /WAR doesn't seem to prevail in exp PTs at all, based on numbers of people actually using it. (This is not a /NIN vs. /WAR argument, but simply saying that the claim that maximum burst damage = superior is tenuous at best.)

Are you now saying that E-bow does NOT do larger damage in bursts than other bows?

In general, I'm sure it does. But that doesn't necessarily outweigh better overall damage, and the other weapon solutions should do enough burst damage (especially with better Barrages) to make the burst difference a non-issue, with equal subjobs.

With a BRD for prelude and competent equipment on the RNG, the RNG/WAR will not only outdamage RNG/NIN in bursts but be very close, if not better, as /NIN over time.

I cannot respond to this argument without turning this thread into a full-blown /NIN vs. /WAR discussion. With a BRD and prelude+minuet, we are stepping firmly into the realm of shadows vs. non-shadows arguments.

[imac2much]

You're correct Dan, it was my fault for bringing up the whole subjob debate since we were not even debating this.

The only reason I brought it up was because I generally found /WAR doing more burst damage than /NIN even with barrage being slightly higher for /NIN (I barely turn on any chat filters so I see everyone's damage). But I suppose this is beside the point and I shouldn't have brought this into the discussion.

What can't really be argued with (and you have likewise agreed) is that E-bow does much higher damage in bursts, i.e. WS, allowing for the xp chains to end quicker. I don't see how the 5 extra RNG ACC from MC Bow will allow for suddenly superbly impressive Barrages compared to E-bow. True, MC Bow will gain more TP in barrages due to higher delay, but that 5 RNG ACC will not make you suddenly hit 2-3 more hits with every barrage than someone using E-bow. If this was the case, I don't think people would ever use Franciscas, and instead just keep the Hawkers.

So even if MC Bow may hit a few more times with its 5 extra RNG ACC (debatable at best), E-bow user can still make sure he has that extra TP or barrage ready for the last chain, then unleash it to kill it as fast as possible... doing more damage in that burst than someone with MC Bow.

P.S. Let's try not to be close-minded and stubborn (all parties, no one in particular). I just wanted to bring up a factor that some readers may not have realized. This shouldn't be a contest to see whose ego is larger than the other... I was hoping for an open-minded forum and conversation, I'm sure we can achieve this

[poweryoga]

I think that over the course of one thousand Sidewinders you would be able to determine whether accuracy bonuses make a difference. Let's keep sample size in perspective, here. I'm not talking about missing 5 Sidewinders in a row (i.e. "a bad day") or anything of such tiny statistical value.

1000 sidewinders? You never said that. This is exactly what you said, so either make your wording clear or stop making up stuff. This is what you posted.

1) If you have markedly less accuracy over a significant number of attacks (1000+ shots is certainly significant) then you didn't have "an off day." You had worse accuracy and you were beaten because of it. Small differences in accuracy rating can make a big difference in net accuracy.

I'll let you think on that one.

That's great, but you're sidestepping my point. I was the one who brought up the fact that logs showed Sarnga winning (contrary to popular estimation from eyeball damage parsing), so explaining why it wins is preaching to the choir.

My question is, how do you know that Sarnga loses at LV59? You're just eyeballing accuracy and supposing that Sarnga's accuracy won't make a difference against non-high-evasion mobs.

I already said Sarnga's accuracy is better post 60 because of the enemies you level on. At lvl 60, most of the stuff you use to level on (Raptors, sand cockatrice) become VT or Low IT so that their evasion is no longer a concern, and doesn't classify as accurate data as they're not "IT" mobs. I've also done a small test with sarnga coming out on top. I personally perfer the sarnga after finally using it, so don't put words in my mouth.

10% is still 10%! If it's over one party, or one hundred, it's still 10%! It affects the outcome EXACTLY the same (by ten percent)!

In a big enough sample size, 10% is an acceptable deviation for testing purposes. I'm not saying there's a 10% accuracy deviation, I'm saying its a deviation taking into account of "bad days", crappy tanks, and other random circumstances. But i'm sure you already know that.

I will send you a stack of silvers (or demons, if you prefer) if you actually get 90% accuracy against IT mobs with an O-bow.

Thanks? :confused:

in any case the parser is no absolute final to anything. Its been known to screw up and there's a lot more things to take into account like tank's ability, party setup, enemy types, etc. I don't want to bother with parsers myself, its a waste of time for me because I personally don't care about the statics. I'll probably never own an E-bow because of its ridiculous price, so I'll be using O-bow, M.Cst Bow, and Guns all the way through... so I don't care much.

You on the other hand who seem to care much more than I do about actual stats... go ahead and parse them. its all zzzz to me.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
1000 sidewinders? You never said that. This is exactly what you said, so either make your wording clear or stop making up stuff. This is what you posted.

You're missing the point. I said that 1000 shots is a good enough sample size to judge accuracy and eliminate "bad day" factor. Then you responded with:

Everyone has on and off days. One day I can hit every single sidewinder at 100% tp, other day I can miss every single shot at 300% tp. Its luck and its a randomness factor you'll have to accept as margin of error.

Since your example switches the sample from overall shots to WSes, I suggested that with a sample size of over 1000 WSes, random luck would be virtually eliminated.

In a big enough sample size, 10% is an acceptable deviation for testing purposes. I'm not saying there's a 10% accuracy deviation, I'm saying its a deviation taking into account of "bad days", crappy tanks, and other random circumstances. But i'm sure you already know that.

Then you're arguing a totally different subject. I'm talking about one weapon (with better accuracy) having a marked accuracy advantage over another. As I understand it, your response is that that higher accuracy will not matter because random luck will always overpower it, no matter the sample size. Like I said, if this is the case, there's just no point in buying any good accuracy equipment at all.

[Bagel]

How about equipping Musketeers Gun +1.

Highest barrage TP, highest damage per shot, highest dmg in your WS.


(I didnt really read the whole thread, so dont get mad!)

[poweryoga]

maybe you're missing the point. 1000 shots is not a big enough sample. I hit that many shots in a good exp party and that doesn't account for nearly enough data at all. That alone does NOT eliminate "random luck" or "bad day", because if that many shots can be covered in ONE EXP SESSION, IT IS TOO SMALL.

or maybe you mean vodka shots, i don't know. make yourself clearer.

Since your example switches the sample from overall shots to WSes, I suggested that with a sample size of over 1000 WSes, random luck would be virtually eliminated.

Since your example switches the sample from overall shots to WSes, I suggested that with a sample size of over 1000 WSes, random luck would be virtually eliminated

I use that as an example of "bad day" as an example, not "omg change subject to WS plz". with 1000 WSes, random luck WOULD be virtually eliminated, with a set amount percentage error for "off days". "Bad days" don't dissapear automatically when you collect a large data size you know. Also, you never actually said "1000 Wses", all you said was "1000 shots, 1000 shots..." 1000 shots doesn't mean what you WANT it to, it means exactly what the word means... It can be WSes, Normal arrows, or fucking vodka. You're not expecting me read your mind for the hidden meaning inside your virtual post are you?

Then you're arguing a totally different subject. I'm talking about one weapon (with better accuracy) having a marked accuracy advantage over another. As I understand it, your response is that that higher accuracy will not matter because random luck will always overpower it, no matter the sample size. Like I said, if this is the case, there's just no point in buying any good accuracy equipment at all.

You're right, I am. Since you've been arguing over a huge amount of subjects, you point fingers at ME for countering your myriad amount of arguments?

I don't know where you got the reference from that higher accuracy doesn't matter. It doesn't matter AS MUCH at my level many many times. Maybe you should read more carefully because I've said that in the beginning already. Also, you completely missed my point again. I said 10% deviation is ACCEPTABLE for a large enough sample size. I never said "random luck outweight everything", you're just putting words in my mouth or making stupid references. Reread my posts, i don't feel like posting the same crap over and over again.

Really, learn to read, I've posted that same crap like 5 times already. I feel like talking to a wall, because all I get are echos of me repeating myself and you completely miss what the hell i'm trying to say.

I can see anything else I'm going to say is just going to be twisted by you into another meaning suited just for the sake of bashing my arguments while you completly avoid my points. I'll be over there doing something else that's not wasting time with you. If you have anything you are not clear of, reread my posts, you'll find all the info you need there 3 or 4 times over.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
maybe you're missing the point. 1000 shots is not a big enough sample. I hit that many shots in a good exp party and that doesn't account for nearly enough data at all. That alone does NOT eliminate "random luck" or "bad day", because if that many shots can be covered in ONE EXP SESSION, IT IS TOO SMALL.

And WHY is it too small? It is a sample size of ONE THOUSAND! Jesus christ, do you not understand basic statistics? Do you think that your accuracy magically gets worse because it's Tuesday, no matter how many shots you fire?

Your "bad day" argument is an BS excuse, period. In case you can't figure it out, the REASON one uses a sample size of one thousand is to account for bad luck! The mind boggles!

1000 shots will tell you exactly what your accuracy is. If you are saying that it won't, you better have some hard evidence to explain WHY, instead of this "I got up on the wrong side of the bed, it can't be explained!" crap.

If ranger A and ranger B fire 1000 shots at the same mobs in the same party, and ranger A has better total accuracy at the end, then guess what? Ranger A has better accuracy! Shocking, I know! (And please, spare me the "I missed three Sidewinders in a row so today doesn't count!" garbage.)

You complain about talking to a brick wall; give me a f*cking break. I'm trying to actually approach the problem with logged data and statistics (i.e. actual scientific inquiry); meanwhile, you just want to stand around and attribute everything to bad days. I'm getting tired of trying to explain the obvious benefit of logged data. If you still can't understand the extremely simple fact of LOGGED COMPARISON > UNLOGGED COMPARISON, then you are just a hopeless idiot, and you can't be reasoned with. Have fun with that.