E-Bow.. Worth it?

[greysenn]

If you have 5 million gil laying around, not only can you easily afford a gun and enough silvers to take you to endgame, but you can also level several crafts extremely high and get a much better return on investment, while doing better damage the whole time. Win/win.

How do you figure? The guy using the ebow will spend 1/5th the amount on ammo you will, assuming he doesn't use scorps exclusively. I blow about 50k a level on ammo right now, I could probably get it down less than that, if I was pickier about my groups, but I'm not.

Half of that expense it is silvers to play around with and cap marksmanship. If you can afford to spend the cash for silvers on nothing but xp, then congrats, I am envious. Lowballing it, I would expect my costs to be 120kish per level ~55-60.

Assuming you don't pay an assanine price for the bow (Which I consider 4 mil +), and lose it in depreciation, it's a much better investment overall. Win/win not spending 3-4million exclusively on silvers, and getting a return when you sell it back for whatever.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
The thing is, its NOT 99% the same. I can understand having the same Acc/Rattack, but having a difference of up to around 20-30 Rattack makes the data innaccurate, and thus not anywhere NEAR 99% the same. And as Dade said, there's a difference between starter and ender.

Where are you getting 20-30 RATK from? Other than the bow/gun (which are specifically the variables being compared), they had the same net RATK (-5 from AF hat to VE is made up by +5 from Amemit to Amemit +1). Actually, this isn't even true, since the gun RNG later clarified that the bow RNG had the AF hat on during the actual exping. So the bow RNG had a 5 RATK advantage the whole time. The comparison is not invalid when the loser has an unfair advantage.

There is no difference between starter and ender; the parser does not credit skillchain damage to a player, only WS damage.

thought we were talking about which does more damage? Not what is going on in exp parties?

Are you seriously arguing now that the comparison is not "which weapon does the most damage in exp parties"? So what are we comparing then, who does the most damage outside of exp parties?

I'll repost what I said.

"There's a lot of uncertainty regarding base damage and ranged attacks as well as player fight style. One player obviously has an advantage in Rattack..."

Yeah, the player that lost had a big advantage in RATK.

If you are going to start DQ'ing logs because "the player style might be different" then there is just no point to parsed logs in exp parties at all.

The point is, you don't KNOW when he's using scorps and when he's using the demons. That is an uncontrolled variable that you can't see, and can't consider.

As I already pointed out, the fact that he went through a full stack of spartans more than negates any penalty from using scorps. Furthermore, you can see (in later additions to the thread) that the bow RNG had a notify macro for ammo change.

No, maybe you're just putting words in my mouth? Its true that it can happen to any player, but if one person is going first in the skill chain its much more likely to happen to the 2nd player as the first attack might put the crawler over the "weapon skill" limit.

1) They weren't always going in the same order.
2) This objection could apply to ANY log. Are all exp party logs invalid? I somehow doubt that you would raise these objections on every other log parse you saw.

There's a difference between saying "guns outdamage e-bow in an exp party" and that "guns do the most damage period", because those 2 are very different.

I wasn't aware that people generally cared about which weapons do the most damage outside of exp parties. The only other situations I can think of are HNM/Dynamis, which would obviously require an HNM/Dynamis log parse.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by greysenn
How do you figure? The guy using the ebow will spend 1/5th the amount on ammo you will, assuming he doesn't use scorps exclusively. I blow about 50k a level on ammo right now, I could probably get it down less than that, if I was pickier about my groups, but I'm not.

First of all, if you are using E-bow + scorps, you're doing WAY less damage* than Musketeer + silvers.

Assuming you're using E-bow + demons (still less, but in the same general area) you are paying about 8k/stack vs 10k/stack. That's barely any savings at all.

Half of that expense it is silvers to play around with and cap marksmanship. If you can afford to spend the cash for silvers on nothing but xp, then congrats, I am envious. Lowballing it, I would expect my costs to be 120kish per level ~55-60.

5 million gil buys 500 stacks of silvers. Your marksmanship should be capped anyway, and if it isn't, xbow will cap it with less than 100k total investment.

Assuming you don't pay an assanine price for the bow (Which I consider 4 mil +), and lose it in depreciation, it's a much better investment overall. Win/win not spending 3-4million exclusively on silvers, and getting a return when you sell it back for whatever.

When you are holding that 5 million gil bow, you don't have 5 million gil in your pocket. When you sell it and buy a Musketeer's +1 and, say, 50 stacks of silvers, guess what? You still have about 4.5 million gil in your hands. That 4.5 million gil, instead of being tied up in one piece of equipment, can be put to work for you. That means, top-flite equipment, multiple high-level crafts, you name it. By the time you get tired of your E-bow and sell it, I would have turned that 5 million gil into double that, plus made enough operating profit to keep me well stocked in silvers.

*in exp parties

[greysenn]

First of all, if you are using E-bow + scorps, you're doing WAY less damage* than Musketeer + silvers.

You must ~~~really~~~ be killing warbow+1 and scorps then. The difference in overall fight time is about 10 seconds, maybe a little more.

5 million gil buys 500 stacks of silvers. Your marksmanship should be capped anyway, and if it isn't, xbow will cap it with less than 100k total investment.

My bad, I wasn't specific enough here. I use M+1 & silvers to cap my skill each level. It adds 40-50% to my leveling costs just capping the skill (1.5 to 2.5 stacks to cap normally). I would probably get away with 25-30k if I used an X-bow to cap it, or just went straight bows.

When you are holding that 5 million gil bow, you don't have 5 million gil in your pocket. When you sell it and buy a Musketeer's +1 and, say, 50 stacks of silvers, guess what? You still have about 4.5 million gil in your hands. That 4.5 million gil, instead of being tied up in one piece of equipment, can be put to work for you. That means, top-flite equipment, multiple high-level crafts, you name it. By the time you get tired of your E-bow and sell it, I would have turned that 5 million gil into double that, plus made enough operating profit to keep me well stocked in silvers

So for 500k expense you just got yourself 4~5 levels, of which you'll never be able to recoup the costs. In anycase, By that logic I could've just as easily capped or near capped my tradeskills before buying an E-bow. It still dosen't change the fact that your leveling costs with it are going to be ~20% of what you would get using M+1 & silvers.

You had better double your money in that time, because if you don't you're going to spend 3-4 mil getting to 75 with nothing to show other than xp.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by greysenn
My bad, I wasn't specific enough here. I use M+1 & silvers to cap my skill each level. It adds 40-50% to my leveling costs just capping the skill (1.5 to 2.5 stacks to cap normally). I would probably get away with 25-30k if I used an X-bow to cap it, or just went straight bows.

Wait a second... are you saying that, after each ding, you immediately run out and join a skillup party (or something) to gain those 3 points of skill? I'm not even sure I understand what you are saying here.

So for 500k expense you just got yourself 4~5 levels, of which you'll never be able to recoup the costs. In anycase, By that logic I could've just as easily capped or near capped my tradeskills before buying an E-bow.

1) If you were using demons, your costs aren't much less.
2) It's a lot easier and faster to cap a tradeskill with 4+ million gil in your hands.

It still dosen't change the fact that your leveling costs with it are going to be ~20% of what you would get using M+1 & silvers.

Only if you use vastly inferior ammo. If you use somewhat comparable ammo, then you'll be spending 80% of the costs, plus 10000% on the actual weapon.

You had better double your money in that time, because if you don't you're going to spend 3-4 mil getting to 75 with nothing to show other than xp.

You're discounting the fact that you would be doing substantially more damage.

I can't believe that I'm having an discussion with rangers where the main objection being used is, "Sure, you may do more damage, but it costs way more and you'll never get that money back!"

As I see it, unless you are hopelessly rich (meaning, you can afford to spend 5 million gil without worrying about it) E-bow and Peacock Charm are just not worth the opportunity cost. Peacock is, at least, the best item for it's slot (though it's not worth the price for a RNG). E-bow isn't even the best ranged weapon for it's level, and any additional costs in gun ammo are more than offset by E-bow's ridiculously overinflated price. By selling an E-bow alone, I'd probably never have to worry about gun ammo for the rest of the game.

[imac2much]

Both sides make very good points, but I think I generally agree with Spidey at the moment... very persuasive arguments, and I concur with most of them

Shelling out 5mil to get an E-bow does NOT mean you have 5mil... yes, you can probably sell it back later for more than you bought it for, but you aren't really saving money ammo-wise, unless, as Spidey said, you are usin Scorps instead of Demons...

But if you're saving money, why the heck are you using E-bow? That's what I would ask myself at least. If I care about money enough nto to use Demon Arrows, it just seems wiser to use a gun and somewhat expensive ammo, which generally isn't overwhelmingly more expensive than a stack fo Demons in the first place.

With the money you save from not getting a 5million bow, you can invest into a tradeskill such as Alchemy, Woodworking, etc which will generally pay off big int he long run. IMO that seems like a better investment than buying and reselling an E-bow... When you reap your benefits from E-bow investment (i.e. sell back your E-bow), you have nothing to show for it. When you reap your benefits from your tradeskill investment, you have a high level crafting skill.

Of course I'm still not convinced that a gun will definitely outdamage E-bow... but that wasn't the point Spidey and Kenshin were trying to make anyway I think. What's good to know is that the damage is at least comparable and in some situations the gun can outdamage E-bow.

But once again I ask... what if the E-bow user uses 32k cp arrow for WS with unlimited shot? Like I said there's no equivalent for gun I believe and that could potentially make a large impact.

[Spider-Dan]

The bow RNG in the log was using CP Arrow for Sidewinder.

[greysenn]

Wait a second... are you saying that, after each ding, you immediately run out and join a skillup party (or something) to gain those 3 points of skill? I'm not even sure I understand what you are saying here.

I'm saying after I level up, I lock and load while xping until the skill is capped. Just capping that skill in itself in that fashion adds 15-25k to your leveling costs.

All I'm doing is looking at this from a realistic expense standpoint. M+1 and silvers do noticeably more damage than the other setups, they even outdamage the e-bow in that particular parse. They also notch up your leveling expenses from about 20-25k to 100-150k per level. I find that an unrealistic amount to obtain per level with my current income.

Secondly, scorpion arrows and even elementals are not vastly inferior ammo for a leveling party. I don't know about your server, however there is not a huge supply of demons and Kabura on mine. They tend to range 6-8k per stack for demons, and take a while (Few days) to have more posted after they've been sold.
While I fully plan on using them, I don't plan on making every arrow I shoot a demon or Kabura.

If 5 mil is as easy to make as everyone makes it out to be, You can easily cap those tradeskills out and make even more money while getting an E-bow, if you so desire. It's not like you're just suddenly gifted with 5 million in most cases.

You're discounting the fact that you would be doing substantially more damage.

I can't believe that I'm having an discussion with rangers where the main objection being used is, "Sure, you may do more damage, but it costs way more and you'll never get that money back!"

Yeah, you will be. But like I said, the mob in that case only dies about 10 seconds faster. I don't consider myself particularly cheap, but there is a point where having to hunt down cash breeches the fun/time coeffecient :p

I can't believe I'm having a discussion where your cash flow is virtually unlimited. Surely even you have limits to your playtime dan.

[Ru-Kenshin]

Hmmm... I skimmed through and read most of it, and I saw a lot about the cost of using a Musketeer Gun +1 and Silver Bullets as a main weapon, but no one here has actually gave information about it or seems to have had experience with it to give it.

So, I'll tell you now from what I know... I've been tracking the costs in ammo for the past few levels, and as I remember it, it's gone like this:

Lv. 63-64 -> ~210k
Lv. 64-65 -> ~225k
Lv. 65-66 -> ~230k

That counts money for Shehei, Chiefkabobs/Mithkabobs, Silver Bullets, and Spartan Bullets.

Not sure if that'll help any...

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by greysenn
I'm saying after I level up, I lock and load while xping until the skill is capped. Just capping that skill in itself in that fashion adds 15-25k to your leveling costs.

If you're using gun+silvers full time, it's a non-issue.

All I'm doing is looking at this from a realistic expense standpoint. M+1 and silvers do noticeably more damage than the other setups, they even outdamage the e-bow in that particular parse. They also notch up your leveling expenses from about 20-25k to 100-150k per level. I find that an unrealistic amount to obtain per level with my current income.

Again, if we are discussing unrealistic time investment for leveling costs, let's start by talking about how long it takes to save for an E-bow.

Secondly, scorpion arrows and even elementals are not vastly inferior ammo for a leveling party.

Compared to silvers, they will do significantly less damage. I'm not saying that scorps are unacceptable (far from it) but if you are trying to be an elite damage dealer by getting an E-bow, you might as well do it right and just go guns.

Yeah, you will be. But like I said, the mob in that case only dies about 10 seconds faster. I don't consider myself particularly cheap, but there is a point where having to hunt down cash breeches the fun/time coeffecient :p

I would find the idea of nonstop farming for two months straight to save up enough for a bow (that I still have to farm to buy ammo for) as a totally different class of breeching the fun/time coefficient. It doesn't just breech it; it smashes it to atoms.

I can't believe I'm having a discussion where your cash flow is virtually unlimited. Surely even you have limits to your playtime dan.

In the hypothetical situation that I either a) came across 5 million gil or b) came across an E-bow, the best solution for fun/time (while keeping the same damage output or better) would be gun+silvers. If you have the 5 million gil in your hands already, farming time is no longer an issue.

[greysenn]

Oh nosz!

E-bow isn't the most expensive bow on the server anymore..

Shigetto +1's going for 9mil atm.

76dam 582 delay, +16ratt, +8racc for samurai

Very nice bow, but ouch.

[poweryoga]

Don't think I've seen shigeto +1s on sale in midgard so we don't get to play around with it...

Like I've said before, E-bow is not worth the 5 mil. I'm too lazy to continue this debate any further, but I view E-bow as an investment. You won't do better damage with any other bow + scorps. Guns cost at least 250k a level, if not more. Throw down a few levels and you're on par with the cost of an e-bow. Which one is more expensive now? Not to mention you can't farm as well with a gun nor run around carefreely shooting bronze bullets (since those cost a bundle too).

In the end, I'm not denying the results of a parser and Spidy and Kenshin's views. I've considered guns the most powerful tools you can possibly use, but to say that the gun outdamages e-bow in every situation is absurd.

In the end, its 1 person's log. It can be biased, it can be made to make the user look good. I'd like to hear from more sources, as kenshin is pretty well known for favoring the gun over e-bow since I've browsed the forums in allakazham.

I'm not going to nitpick on all the things you say, its pointless.

As of this moment, If i get a e-bow, I'll probably sell it and cap out woodworking, while getting myself 2 behemoth rings, hawkers +1, and an ammemit +1. That alone is worth more than the E-bow itself. Simply because i can do much more with 5 mil than a slight upgrade to my m.cst bow.

Now I just want a parser result of Gun vs O-bow + acids...

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
You won't do better damage with any other bow + scorps. Guns cost at least 250k a level, if not more. Throw down a few levels and you're on par with the cost of an e-bow. Which one is more expensive now?

If "a few levels" = the rest of the way to 75 and more, I agree. 500 stacks will last a long, long time.

And actually, you would have to go through closer to 600 stacks before total cost of gun+bullets approached total cost of e-bow+scorps.

I've considered guns the most powerful tools you can possibly use, but to say that the gun outdamages e-bow in every situation is absurd.

It's no less absurd than saying that E-bow will outdamage [lots of other weapons] in every situation, yet that is apparently the de facto belief for many RNGs. Can you really say that E-bow will outdamage Shigeto or MC in every situation? Yet you just said that "you won't do better damage with any other bow."

Now I just want a parser result of Gun vs O-bow + acids...

O-bow is going to be almost impossible to get a controlled parse on. The reason is because (in a setup similar to this one) the gun (or E-bow) user would benefit equally from the O-bow user's acids.

[poweryoga]

Can you really say that E-bow will outdamage Shigeto or MC in every situation? Yet you just said that "you won't do better damage with any other bow."

with the exception of a shigetos +1, i'm pretty sure E-bow outdamages all other bows.

At least, when I used it, it outdamaged M.Cst Bow in exp party. I never purchased a shigeto because of its delay. E-bow has a much smaller delay than shigeto's so it shoots faster anyways (with more accuracy).

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
with the exception of a shigetos +1, i'm pretty sure E-bow outdamages all other bows.

At least, when I used it, it outdamaged M.Cst Bow in exp party. I never purchased a shigeto because of its delay. E-bow has a much smaller delay than shigeto's so it shoots faster anyways (with more accuracy).

But how can you say this? This is my point. In exactly the same way that you can argue that maybe E-bow can still outdamage Musketeer's, I can argue that maybe Shigeto (with higher DMG and similar RATK) or MC (with higher DMG and more ACC) can outdamage E-bow.

On the one hand, you want to say that this isn't enough to prove that gun "always" outdamages E-bow, but on the other you take it for granted that E-bow "always" outdamages other bows.