Rng/brd?

[psiorian]

Would this be a bad combo? You could have only one song yea...and you'd have to do some EQ switching...what does everyone think?

[Timoham]

Only benefit I could see it giving is hunter's prelude. But /NIN for two archer's knives >>> prelude. And even then, you wouldn't be able to cast it until you were a 62 RNG.

[2.0]

No.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Timoham
Only benefit I could see it giving is hunter's prelude. But /NIN for two archer's knives >>> prelude. And even then, you wouldn't be able to cast it until you were a 62 RNG.

Still don't see why people take that the accuracy boost from having two archer's knives is so great. I've hardly noticed any hard data proof that backs this up, my hit ratio as far as I've noted has remained fairly the same around 80% out of 100 shots with 2 archer's knives and with only 1 archer's knife.

At the most when I went to 1000 shots my hit ratio with 2 and with 1 only differed by something like .05% 1k shots not using something like barrage usually lasts me about 12 hrs. With barrage it's about 9 hrs. Anyway the amount of time you'll have to be in a session for the DoT be noticably different, would have to be a session of nearly 20 days for the 2 archer's to overcome the 1 archer's. The only major benefit of /NIN is the use of Utsusemi: Ichi.

As for the RNG/BRD it's a good combination when BRD is lv. 5 and RNG is between lv. 10 - 19 after that there are other combinations that better cover the RNGs weaknesses or enhance their strengths then BRD is capable of doing at levels under 65+. The combination however does have an added benefit in party, though it usually doesn't matter to most players at all about it's benefit.

It's benefit that it gives in parties is with a Main BRD and you, you are able to work with and make 3 song combinations. This will help the party survive longer or strengthen their abilities a little bit more (Yes, it doesn't mean you yourself becomes superior but the power of the party as a whole gets a slight boost. Pride and Ego prevents this from getting anywere).

Most of the time though a person playing RNG tends to be more focused on either being an extreem damage dealer or a great damage dealer capable of evading attacks. So the more common RNGs you'll see is RNG/WAR and RNG/NIN, such a waste IMHO for such a lack in cunning to make other combinations work good.

If you are deciding this combination the thing I can warn you about is you'll definatly get criticized and pressured to change it. Otherwise the ability to find a party will increasingly become harder the higher level you get with that.

EDIT:
Something to add the /NIN and Utsusemi: ichi if anyone didn't know was reduced. The length of time it lasts when you sub NIN is less. Even though I'm RNG and even though it's something just adding a little more wasted money to those RNG/NIN and adding a little more difficulty for them I like it. Don't think it right at all for players to be conforming their job to such limited amount, because they have a psyche and peer preasure telling them that's the only combinations they are allowed to have.

[Timoham]

For one thing, this is not a thread with /NIN or /WAR debate. Another thing, I wasn't supporting /NIN over /WAR with my comment, just stating that if he wants accuracy with prelude, he's better off with /NIN.

Another problem I have with RNG/BRD that you say would benefit the party is that with /BRD you only get 1 song (Yes, I know with a main BRD this is 3 songs) but your BRD is also REALLY GIMP compared to the other BRD and really does NOT help out the party that much. With /WAR or /NIN you do more damage than with /BRD which helps kill mobs faster which means more chains and XP over time. /BRD makes you kill stuff slower and does not help the party that much, especially considering any song you have as a 60 RNG/BRD, the BRD is bound to have atleast the II or III maybe even IV (not sure how far BRD songs go) of the same things you have, making your song near obsolete.

RNGs are supposed to help parties by dealing ridiculous amounts of damage. Without /WAR you don't get the added benefit of attack up and berserk and all that, with /NIN you don't get the ability to shoot while taking hits with your blink.

IMHO, it's just ridiculous for anyone to consider anything other than /NIN, /WAR, or /SAM as a RNG. As other classes that are not necessarily built SOLELY around doing DMG but instead helping the group or something, /BRD might be a good idea. But as RNG, you just don't get any added benefits that I can see.

One last note to you, Macht... If you have actually played and levelled RNG, I'd atleast put something about it in my signature or character information so you have just a bit more authority and possibly experience to back you up on your thoughts with RNG. Just my two cents. But even if you are telling the truth (which I don't necessarily doubt), you're obviously not a RNG/BRD and "conform" to the "pressure" of only being allowed to have certain subjobs to RNG. If you think /BRD is such a good idea, why not try it out and prove me wrong?


Flame away!

[Gyachi-Sin]

As a bard, I wouldn't recommend this at all. If you want the added bonuses of a bard in your group, get a bard. Bard subjob is very bleh, imho it should only be played as a main simply because as you progress up the song list, you wont have access to the level 3 or 4 songs. Also, the only feasible benefit of this sub would be Hunter's Prelude, which is level 31, so you'd have to be 62 to get any benefit.

Not to mention you couldn't equip any instruments, thus giving only one song and none of the instrument bonuses.

Simply put, steer clear of bard unless you plan on using it as a main job.

[PhoR]

I was under the impression that in a party with a main bard, if you make bard your subjob, that the MAIN bard can sing three songs now.
Which would be alot better than having to sing with a gimp brd subjob. Because then you could have three high level songs on.

/brd is still not worth it in my opinion. even if the main bard can sing three songs.

Just a thought.

[Rhayn]

Originally posted by PhoR
I was under the impression that in a party with a main bard, if you make bard your subjob, that the MAIN bard can sing three songs now.
Which would be alot better than having to sing with a gimp brd subjob. Because then you could have three high level songs on.

/brd is still not worth it in my opinion. even if the main bard can sing three songs.

Just a thought.

Having someone use bard as a subjob does not allow a real bard to stack three high level songs. What they ment by having three songs is that you could have the BRD use two high level songs and the */BRD add a third low-level song. I'm fairly certain you couldn't stack two of the same song either (although I have not tried it), so you wouldn't be able to sing Ballad2, Ballad, and another Ballad from the */BRD in a lv55+ party, as fun as that could be.

People have mentioned the ability to dual-wield Archer's knives and Berserk as important abilities that you lose, but no one has yet mentioned that fact that BRD has poor STR and AGI ratings, meaning that simply by having a BRD subjob you're already passively at a disadvantage both in accuracy and damage, even excluding other subjob traits and abilities. Add to this the fact that a good bard would be running back and forth between the mages and melees singing different songs and keeping them up at all times and it would make finding enough time to focus on damage dealing extremely difficult. Also, consider the fact that the ranger is more than often pulling the monsters, which means that you won't be there when the mages are resting to throw on the additional Ballad or whatever.

It's an interesting idea, but monsters get increasingly difficult to damage and hit as you gain levels, so by the time you can actually use any useful songs, you probably won't be able to perform your own job (ranger) well at all.

[greysenn]

Nobody mentions the Str and Agi losses because it's insignificant compared to the loss of berserk, Dual archers (questionable if you're not fighting IT++++), or more importantly, utsusemi.

I think you'd suffer maybe about 2-3 shots loss per fight running around singing mp regen, ballad/madrigal and prelude. I'm not even sure how effective a low level ballad/madrigal like that might be, even though the prelude and the mp regen would definetly be handy.

[KamaAina]

Originally posted by Macht

EDIT:
Something to add the /NIN and Utsusemi: ichi if anyone didn't know was reduced. The length of time it lasts when you sub NIN is less. Even though I'm RNG and even though it's something just adding a little more wasted money to those RNG/NIN and adding a little more difficulty for them I like it. Don't think it right at all for players to be conforming their job to such limited amount, because they have a psyche and peer preasure telling them that's the only combinations they are allowed to have.

Not getting into a sub war here....


But I would just like to correct something Macht said, Utsusemi was not nerfed as a sub. It has always blocked three hits and it still does. You can test it for yourself or when I get home I can try to dig up a picture of it. But it has not been nerfed just so you know. And at least in my opinion blocking three hits is not at all a "waste".

[greysenn]

I think he means the time it lasts before it fades, assuming you don't get hit.

[KamaAina]

I know it at leasts lasts half the time of mithkabob. I used it when searching for my coffer in Monastic Cavern so it at leasts lasts 15 minutes.... and what is the point of that argument?

If you are not getting hit at least once every 15 minutes then... you probobly should sub WAR or something... or at least buy a bow and stop using that boomerang =P.

[Timoham]

I tested this with a two BRD friends of mine. A single person can only have 2 songs on them at once, period. The duration/effectiveness/area of effect just is not up to par with a main BRD and totally useless.

[Macht]

Well anyway the points I was trying to make have just been proven by the two that decided to attack me. I got this info about it's reduced ability when subbed straight from a thread on this forum. Go look at http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...ight=utsusu%2A if you don't believe me.

When combining 3 songs yes you can't use 2 of the same so Ballad and Ballad2 won't work with another Ballad. Supposedly though you can combine you're weaker one with 2 stronger like Ballad3, Ballad2, and then Ballad. With /BRD it's pointless to use any songs other then Paeon's or Ballad's simply because those are the only two sets of songs that don't get a huge penalty when used with subs.

In battle this has a small advantage that's almost unnessisary, with the exception of Ballad's to mages being able to give a mage just a little quiker regeneration on top of any others they get can inevitably help the party out greatly (given the mage is smart enough to use their MP cautiously and the right time instead of mindless/careless use) by shortening even more the downtime to occure providing a better chance to achieve higher chains faster.

It's fine to push RNG to be an extreem damage dealer, but their isn't much a point to do so if the greater number of parties you join is incapable of controling hate properly (Many times with my RNG at lv. 54 I have to wait till the monster is half dead to start because they can't gather/control hate fast enough).

If you really need me to post my character's jobs and levels then fine here they are:

RNG 54, DRK 33, BLM 30, RDM 14, WHM 15, SMN 14, THF 7, BST 10, DRG 13, WAR 15, NIN 15, BRD 14, MNK 13, SAM 20

There's no point in posting it though, the next thing I'll get is people questioning if that is true or not. Prejudice runs very heavy and deep on this forum, so I see no point further backing what I've said. The only points I wanted to make have been made thanks to those two.

My whole point summing it up is if you go with a combination like RNG/BRD it might have bonuses that you yourself may see as beneficial but it won't guarentee that everyone else does. In the end they'll "flame" or as I put preasure or insult you about it.

Originally posted by Timoham
I tested this with a two BRD friends of mine. A single person can only have 2 songs on them at once, period. The duration/effectiveness/area of effect just is not up to par with a main BRD and totally useless.

It is possible to have more then 2 songs on you, go look at the screenshots of the Dynamis fights. There are at least 8 I've seen were 1 player has around 6 songs on them.

[Timoham]

I'm not insulting the person who asked the question. In fact, I'm glad he asked the question instead of just doing it. I'm insulting YOU as an actual RNG for backing him up and yet not using the combination yourself. Low level BRD spells just are NOT effective enough to keep up with higher levelling. And if you think ballad and paeon are the only useful BRD songs, you're very incorrect. My static PT has the BRD run around to give mages ballad, the WHM the +MND, he gives me prelude, the melees accuracy bonus and attack bonus, and the BLM the +INT song. These spells with a /BRD are INSIGNIFICANT compared to the additional damage capability you add to yourself with /WAR, /NIN, or /SAM. Also, I doubt you need to wait for the mob to be half dead, you just need to learn to pace yourself. Get rid of the damage ego and be economical. Take TIME between your shots. I can (and do sometimes) pull hate off our Galka PLD/WAR, though I keep myself paced so I DON'T. Usually, at higher levels, if the tank is unable to keep hate off a specific person, the fault is not in the tank but the person for being a damage whore and bringing it upon themselves.