Sidewinder hate control

[Nemes]

Hi!

I'm currently a level 58 PLD, and I have a static, which includes a BLM and RNG.

My problem is that, lately, the RNG died a few times(2) 'cause he used Sidewinder.

Maybe it's only because he changed his macro (he used to tell me 4 seconds before so I could prepare myself for his Sidewinder), but anyhow...

Do you guys have this problem? I mean, do you use only Sidewinder when the monster is almost dead, or whenever you can use it? And if the latter, is it normal thing that he gets the hate most of the time?

I don't consider myself to be a sucky PLD either. I know what I'm doing...or at least I thought so


But then again, maybe he died only 'cause he was using it with ppl between him and the monster, making this utterly impposible for me to run in front of him and cover him and try to get hate back at the same time >_<


So, I would just like to know your experiences with Sidewinder and hate control

[Arturo-B]

Our set uses blm and rng as well, and though I'm the whm I can give some insight on what our pld uses.

1)We have a set thf as well for fuidama, which helps a ton. I'd almost say this is a must to have fuidama in a pt like this.

2)Our rng subs nin so he can blink before the SC. This is most usefull as the rng is the trick partner, so the blink is a must at the beginning of the battle.

3)Our pld does the normal stacked voke, flash, etc. He also tries to drop a Cure 4 before the SC, so I leave his hp around the 600/1100 level if I can. As we have a rdm for targeted refresh, our pld generally has enough mp to do what he needs to do.

4)Our pld will also try to spirits within during or just after the SC, which seems to help a lot. I keep him hasted 100% of the time so he has enough tp for spirits when he needs it.

5)If the pld's flash timer isn't up, I'll flash as well. That's a few free misses when the mob wants to hit the rng, and I never build enough hate for the mob to turn to me against all of the above.

Sometimes the mob still turns, but we've never lost our rng to a SC hate change (so far lol). Usually one or 2 cure 3's on the rng is enough time for the pld to get hate back. Most of the time the mob doesn't turn at all, especially if the fuidama went off well. This is particularly true once our pld got full AF with all the emnity plusses.

Our ranger sidewinders anywhere from I think 600-900ish on IT+ or ++? Sorry on the numbers. I'm usually watching the hp's and status (evil evil torama lol), but I hope this is helpful.

Best Regards,
Alex

[poweryoga]

Tell the ranger to get behind you before doing sidewinder, unless a Thf is tricking back onto you. That makes it easier to cover. Even if s/he misses, its safer. Also, tell him to make a macro for sidewinders...

But as for hate... some plds I know do the whole load of hate controlling stuff (flash + provoke + sentinel + S.bash + rampart) after I do sidewinder while others just throw cure 3s on me (i usually get hit once) and use me as cure doll...

its up to you really.

For sidewinders, I do it when the skill chain calls for it. This should let you gather more than enough hate because most Rngs need 150-200% to shoot off an accurate sidewinder.

If he's doing sidewinder -> barrage -> sidewinder, just hope he's behind you and the mob dies before cover breaks... because nothing short of invincible will drag hate off that one. (and tell him to not do that too much :p )

i only do that when mob has about 1/4 life left. :sweat:

[Rhayn]

Sounds about right Arturo. ^^

There's one thing I should clear up about Spirits Within though. The only way you can get this to do enough damage to pull conserable hate is by saving it up to 250-300% TP, which for a PLD can take quite a long time. At about 100% TP, SW does 100-120 damage, but with 300% TP it does 450-500. These numbers are if I am in near full health, since if my health is lower the damage from SW decreases.

Rangers generally build TP very quickly, especially with a nice Barrage, so it's very unlikely that you'll be able to counter Sidewinder with a 300% TP Spirits Within. In our set party, our RNG and THF form the renkei, and our RNG is the trick tank. I generally save Spirits Within for times like "Oh crap. Sidewinder made the mob face the ranger, Flash, Provoke, Sentinel, Shield Bash, Berserk, and Defender are all down, and I have about 2 seconds to turn it back around or the thief's Dancing Edge will be partially wasted (no sneak attack) and my Cure magic is too slow to do the job."

Since Spirits Within is instant, does 450-500 damage with 300% TP, and doesn't interrupt a renkei since it has no elemental properties, I save up 300% TP and then wait to use it as an extra "safety" hate device. Because we start almost every pull with a fuidama and we have a RDM to provide Refresh, the monster doesn't normally turn around after Sidewinder, so it give me time to build TP.

Of course, occassionally the ranger will be ready to use Sidewinder, I won't have the TP for a good Spirits Within, and I wasn't able to build much hate this fight because of low mp or my other abilities on cooldown. If I'm pretty sure Sidewinder will turn the mob and I can't do anything about it, I'll let the thief know so she can move behind me instead. It's increadibly easy to keep hate after a renkei where you get all the hate from a Dancing Edge for 750 damage and about 200-400 more from the renkie.

The only problem with this is if Sidewinder misses (which it is moderately prone to do). If this happens and the thief is behind you, not only is Sidewinder completely wasted, but the thief also does reduced damage because the mob is still facing the pld, and therefore the thf as well.

Didn't mean to go on a rant, but basically what I'm trying to say is that Sidewinder is a powerful weaponskill when it hits and without a starting fuidama or good mana regen (or both -_-) it will be hard to keep hate. If you find that most of the time keeping hate or at least recovering hate after Sidewinder is not a problem but every once and a while it's extremely difficult, I suggest saving up TP for that time. Not only does it bring a monster that is bent on destroying your ranger closer to its own demise, but it will garner you a very substantial amount of hate. Spirits Within ignores defense and has 100% accuracy, so it will do the same damage no matter what you're fighting (this is also why for a lot of people HNM fights are basically "Build TP, Spirits Within, Build TP, Spirits Within" ><)

Every little bit of hate helps though, so keep in mind that every combat action draws hate, even simply activating Defender or Berserk, although the hate may be very little. I once turned a monster off a party member in the red simply by activating Berserk, only to manually remove it about 2 seconds later. I have not yet tested Holy Circle against anything but undead though...

Hope anything I said was helpful.

EDIT: Just a little note that with a good starting fuidama, a healthy amount of MP, and enough time to build the needed hate, it's not terribly uncommon for me to keep the hate even after full renkei on the ranger, which is usually 1250-2050 damage (Sidewinder + Dancing Edge + Distortion renkei). I've gone entire five-hour exp sessions without having to use Cover, although Utsusemi helps immensly. (o'.')b

[Wels]

With thief its easy, have the rng turn the mob with sidewinder, with thief ready to renkei, facing the pld and then let the theif SATA it back with some ws (think it's called dancing edge or something). Sometimes though SATA isn't enough to turn the mob back but 80% of the time it does and then you are pretty set for the rest of the fight (which btw won't be long because that renkei usually takes 30-50% of the mobs hp). This is ofc pre level 3 renkeis.

[FeralisCallidus]

This is ofc pre level 3 renkeis.

And once you hit level 3, you'll want:

Arching Arrow > Shark Bite

or

Arching Arrow > Spinning Slash


>>

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Rhayn
I have not yet tested Holy Circle against anything but undead though...

Holy Circle gains hate. I've had the mob turn several times after using it (do to my low-levelness, I only have Shield Bash and Holy Circle).

[Ghost1183]

I rarely get pts with a thf . If you have one , like everyone said , SA+TA off the rng . But if there isnt a thf you should tell the rng to stand back alittle for cover . I mean he is in your static so there should be no problems telling him this . I use nin so max I use utsusemi 2x ( 6 hits ) and normally plds are able to get the hate back . To be honest it has been awhile since I have died using this method . Also as poweryoga said you can throw cure 3s and 4s on the rng to get hate back pretty quickly .

[Wels]

And once you hit level 3, you'll want:

Arching Arrow > Shark Bite

or

Arching Arrow > Spinning Slash

Question though, will Arching Arrow turn the mob easily or you'll have to barrage before so it will turn?

[poweryoga]

from what I've heard, arching arrow does about 1/2 the damage of sidewinder, so it may not turn the mob. But that shouldn't be a problem if you do a provoke or do barrage beforehand.

[FeralisCallidus]

Question though, will Arching Arrow turn the mob easily or you'll have to barrage before so it will turn?

Here's the kicker:

If you're doing your job correctly, it will.

Most rangers generally try to keep their damage/hate just below the PLD's hate threshold. Hell, RNG/NINs gloat about their ability to cross this line on occasion because of utsusemi. However, it's HILARIOUS when they say they can't turn the mob with Arching Arrow, because they just said in a previous post that they were EASILY meeting and exceeding the PLD's maximum hate with normal attacks.

So, if it's true that they have a hard time turning the mob [ As a LV75 RNG/NIN posted on allakhazam boards, just after she posted that she does the same dmg as a RNG/WAR and draws aggro from regular attacks blah bla blah~ he/she is full of shit ], then they are conceeding to the fact that they are doing LESS than their potential damage compared to a RNG/WAR, which they always seem to deny.

Just my 2 minutes of /NIN bashing =)

[Burzum]

There is another consideration as well.. it may be possible that Arching Arrow has a -enmity element build into it... just as Cure V does... just ask any whm about the hate difference between Cure IV and Cure V. Yes Arching Does less damage but it might also have help... just a theory

[gbay]

ya /war gogo!
well..
my set pt has drk, pld,rng ,brd in it.
at around 40% remaining of enemies hp, im lvl 60 rite now so we were doing raptors last,
me and Drk would SC, Shadow of Death > sidewinder and before bard would threnody, 900-1400 sidewinder with 400-700 skillchain when im berserked which finishs of mob.

A good rule if u dont wana die is sidewinder to finish of the mob. After our SC, a bow shot or 2 kills it.

~also like to add we make our pld save Spirits for chain 5
6 is hard :sweat: Pld would voke and spirits at start and barage, sc dead shtuff.

[Keichan]

Wow. I don't know... but it seems that some people are actually quoting me from different forums... some bad... some good... in this case... bad=P.

What Feralis is not realizing is that although we get to pass this hate barrier in several situations. Some situations, where Pld's have massive +enmity gear will be able to keep aggro even though we do an arching arrow. I did suggest that warrior subs are better in this case. And now Feralis is claiming that warriors are better in all cases.

There is a difference between strategically dealing more damage and brute force dealing more damage. If you single out Ranger solo and wanted to measure damage potential in a mob you are leveling up on, a Berserked Ranger/Warrior would win. However, a ranger can not do this. This is because this game is reared towards party play so will always be done in a party. In a Party, a Ranger/Warrior will have to stop when he/she gains aggro. a Ranger/Ninja can continue shooting to gain additional damage within the next provoke a tank uses. This additonal damage will eventually catch up to the ranger (in which case the next provoke will have no effect on aggro), however, in most cases, battles dont' last long enough for that to happen. Now I'm talking about this as a normal circumstances. In a normal circumstance, a Ranger/Ninja can take aggro from a PLD with a single arching arrow. In the cases where a pld refuses to wear phalanx rings and wears something like Mermaid's Ring instead, (and a bunch of other enmity gear), this would result of a Ranger not being able to take hate from an arching arrow.

I would want to bash Feralis about how he doesn't even have arching arrow yet-- yet he's so sure that a rng/war would do better. However, I would restrain from that at this moment because I wouldn't want to fall down to his level (like his bashing on me on other posts behind my back).

I'd also like to quote this (Directed towards me)
"she does the same dmg as a RNG/WAR and draws aggro from regular attacks blah bla blah~ he/she is full of shit "

Yep, in a lvling party, all rangers will do similar damage because the hate limit will always be the power of the tank. Warriors, though they CAN deal more damage will never deal their full potential because they will always have to, as Feralis said, stay slightly below a Pld's hate line. Also, in normal instances, a Ranger will be able to steal hate from a Pld with arching arrow. I only talk of instances where you find some very very rich plds which don't gear themselves towards Rng, Thf, Pld aggro change fuidamas.

[Deodorant]

An extremely good thf can stand to the side of the mob, see which way it faces after rng ws, and quickly run to the other side and sa+ta+dancing/whatever. This doesn't apply if the thf is on 56k, or has slow reflexes.