Sub: Nin vs. RNG and Sidewinder.

[Spider-Dan]

...

If your complaint is that it would be unfair for RNG/NIN to have such an advantage over RNG/WAR, then you'd better be writing a long letter to Squenix. You can include in that letter complaints about how most melee only have 1-2 viable party subs. Hell, if you're just going to complain about RNG, complain that RNG/THF is so much worse than /WAR. /WAR at least gets a 15% attack increase.

[Kenki]

If your complaint is that it would be unfair for RNG/NIN to have such an advantage over RNG/WAR, then you'd better be writing a long letter to Squenix. You can include in that letter complaints about how most melee only have 1-2 viable party subs. Hell, if you're just going to complain about RNG, complain that RNG/THF is so much worse than /WAR. /WAR at least gets a 15% attack increase

It's 25% not 15%. Beserk effect +25% (on average) on attack.

There is no concrete info about how superior Rng/Nin over Rng/War. The 90% accuracy over 30% accuracy of a +12.5acc is unclear! You just rush to conclution before it is confirmed.

Rng has 3 sub jobs that are mostly selected: Nin, War and Sam. If the plus acc that /Nin makes Rng to hit 60% more than the other 2 job then that will make the /Nin completely superior to the other 2.

It will make /Nin is the ONLY viable sub job for Rng . If such info is released and confirmed to be 100% correct then there is not enough reasons to sub War or Sam over Nin. Then everyone will be clones of each other for the superior power. That is what SE doesn't want.

If anyone can confirm that +12.5acc truely cause you to hit 90% of the time and 30% of the time without it, I will write the letter for real. However, if no one can confirm if such info is correct then I can conclude that the difference the +12.5 acc make is NOT significant enough to cause a difference in damage per exp mob.

Thf is not a "viable" sub job for Rng in exp parties. People sub it because they just want to and the people who invite them don't care about that. I also would like to see how many RNG actually sub Thf for exp party. The reason the majority of RNG not sub Thf is because there are at least 2 better sub: War and Nin. For example, it is confirmed that /War hit for 60% less than Nin then the +25% attack power is some where near useless (since only 30% of the hits land). People will start thinking that Thf is not a bad sub compare to War.

[Cometgreen]

There is no concrete info about how superior Rng/Nin over Rng/War. The 90% accuracy over 30% accuracy of a +12.5acc is unclear! You just rush to conclution before it is confirmed.

But there is all this concrete info about how superior Rng/War is over Rng/Nin. Of course, that's perfectly fair.

Cometgreen

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Kenki
It's 25% not 15%. Beserk effect +25% (on average) on attack.

No, it's 15% on average. (funny that you chose that particular word)

Berserk is 25% ATK up for 3 minutes, 5 minute recast. 25% * 3/5 = 15% overall (average) ATK boost.

Rng has 3 sub jobs that are mostly selected: Nin, War and Sam. If the plus acc that /Nin makes Rng to hit 60% more than the other 2 job then that will make the /Nin completely superior to the other 2.

It will make /Nin is the ONLY viable sub job for Rng . If such info is released and confirmed to be 100% correct then there is not enough reasons to sub War or Sam over Nin. Then everyone will be clones of each other for the superior power. That is what SE doesn't want.

So tell me... what are all the viable subjobs for PLD? What about NIN? SMN? BRD?

Lots of jobs have only one viable sub (and pre-60, MOST jobs have one clearly superior sub).

Thf is not a "viable" sub job for Rng in exp parties. People sub it because they just want to and the people who invite them don't care about that. I also would like to see how many RNG actually sub Thf for exp party. The reason the majority of RNG not sub Thf is because there are at least 2 better sub: War and Nin.

But using your logic, the fact that /THF is so disadvantaged should be something to complain about. Why is it totally unacceptable for /NIN to be substantially better than /WAR, but A.O.K. for /WAR to completely exceed /THF? One viable subjob means the game is unplayably broken, but two viable subjobs means the game is fine and dandy?

[voodoo]

you should do a
/sea all rng 70-
some time.

the few times i've done this, every single rng has been rng/nin ~ except for a few rng/thf or rng/blms for farming/warp.

[KamaAina]

hey guys im back...

I finally got 55 YAY!

Anyways here is my expieriences with sidewinder so far maybe that will help.

First of all let me say that sidewinder is so not overrated if anything it is under rated! Sidewinder -> Vorpal Scythe on crabs in boyhoda tree Magic bursting with freeze !!!!!

These things have around 3,000 hp now I subbed war and with berserk did around 870-1140 (highest) damage on these at 55. These things are all IT high defense. So we have my roughly 1k of damage + the Dark knights vorpal scythe damage around 400 with a 300 or so distortion and then a freeze MB for 1100-1200 and you have yourself one short fight! Not many setups can totally obliterate every other mob in 10 seconds:p

ok so back on topic of subjobs...

You know since I hit 50 and started subbing war more I have found that as long as I party with either a Bard (prelude), Dark Knight (abs-agi), Warrior (Shield break works just great on crabs), or a combination of RDM and BLM (which most parties have really.. this is for both frost and gravity toegether they make it pretty hitable) if I have any of these in a party I dont have any accuracy problems as a /WAR or /NIN and trust me I am a total accuracy freak. I mean one miss is too many...

As for Sidewinder I usually wait till at least 140 TP but since we really only skillchain every other fight (we fight fast) and I barrage on the alternate one if I have it. I usually have 200+ tp everytime and I hardly miss.

The big difference for me however was doing 600 damage with /NIN sub on the same mobs and doing like 650 with WAR sub and up to 1000 damage with berserk.

So I guess what I am saying is 10 accuracy is a huge deal unless you are already hitting it just fine in which case its not really a big deal at all.

My only gripe about /war though is that I get knocked around alot more if the BLM's freeze gets resisted or the DRK misses Vorpal scythe I get smacked around pretty good and the PLD doesn't have a chance of getting hate back.

[qweezy]

High lvl Rangers sub Ninja not because they can dual wield 2 archer/hawker knifes, it's because Utsusemi is god damn uber. If SE removes Utsusemi from Ninja, see how many Rangers will leave thier Ninja sub :p . +10 ranged accuracy is trivial when you already have +70-80 ranged accuracy. I doubt it will even give 5% accuracy increase once you hit the level cap and has access to most equipments.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by qweezy
+10 ranged accuracy is trivial when you already have +70-80 ranged accuracy.

Do you think the difference between an A and B rank weapon is "trivial"? An extra knife makes more difference than that.

[greysenn]

Depends what you're fighting and how high of a level it is. I had the displeasure of fighting some beetles in garlaige around 47-48. Terrible hit rate, rdm couldn't dispell Rhino guard, blm didn't have frost and no bard to top it off. Shield break was helping a fair amount.. when the war could connect with it.

I wish I had subbed ninja that run, because the added knife probably would've helped. Seeing that our highest person leveled to 49, and we were still pulling 200 a kill, I'd say those were stupidly high for us to be fighting. (Man, that was an expensive level..)

Vs. normal IT stuff, I haven't seen a significantly huge hit rate boost. The utsusemi is really the main thing ninja has going for it on most xp parties.

[greysenn]

Finally got to mess around with Sidewinder this weekend, I think I fanned the first 6-7 shots out of 10 until I realized exactly how TP sensitive it was (200+ on IT for me). Didn't miss a single one after that.

[Deodorant]

RNG is my current 'flavor of the month' and I must say that I greatly prefer /nin over /war (having played both subs). Anyway in exp parties:

Extra +10 (or so) racc from /nin is overrated, I don't feel any noticeable increase in hit rate. Hell, I started lvling my marskmanship in exp parties with it 30 lvls below cap, and still had a pretty respectable hit rate.

Extra dmg from /war with berserk on is very noticeable. In flat out damage mode, /war definitely outdamages /nin.

However, I'd go so far as to say that overall I do more damage with /nin. With /war, drawing aggro means a lot of damage taken (a double attack can easily take off 1/3~1/2 of my hp), waste of whm healing, etc. Therefore making me greatly control and limit the number of shots I take.

On the other hand, with /nin I have a lot more freedom to shoot and draw aggro. I pretty much shoot continously with /nin, because when I get aggro I can go 3 or 6 hits unharmed (and by that time, the tank normally has provoke or some other ja ready to get aggro back).

So it all boils down to: As /war if I wanted to, I could easily outdamage myself as /nin, but as /nin I can do more damage without jeapordizing the overall efficiency of the party.

One observation though, is that if I ever partied with a superb tank who could hold hate from me going (almost) all-out as /war, then no question /war would be the more damaging sub.

[greysenn]

You know, after playing with it for a while, if you have enough TP I don't think SW is any more inaccurate than any other ranger WS. :/

[Chucklez_1]

Nice thread (except for that huge argument midway)

After reading this, I think I'll just level both war and nin and sub it depending on the party situation.

I just do have a major question though. It's true ninjas' sidewinder will hit way less dmg than warriors. Although, wouldn't the /nin extra accuracy of hitting more arrows before WS, and being on the paladin's hate threshold most of the time, pretty much gives roughly the same as /war ?

Bear in mind that I'm a total noob when it comes to rangers and that all I know is how to refresh/dispel/haste/enfeeble bot :sweat:

[greysenn]

It depends on your group setup as to who's going to be able to do more damage. I think it changes later, but I have a really hard time getting hate. even berserked in the 50-60's range with a good paladin (IE, I need sidewinder to do it.) The way I see it, unless you're soloing WS's, /war does more damage for me. I just hold skillchains until it will kill/mostly kill the mob, and overhate at that point is totally irrelivant. For my playing style, /war works better.

If you're in a setup where you can/are soloing WS, then the blink method of going overhate probably can do more damage. I haven't been in a position to really try it though.

As for the accuracy difference, I don't see that much of one unless I'm fighting stuff thats higher than I should be fighting.. in which case ninja is the winner in hit rate. On standard lower xp mobs /war is the winner damagewise... assuming that you're not pulling hate.

In anycase, both subs are very good, it's just a matter of playstyle/group setup as to which one will be more effective.

[imac2much]

At level 66+, I definitely prefer RNG/WAR over RNG/NIN. RNG/NIN more often than not CANNOT PULL AGGRO for skillchain purposes, whether they go all out or not. Well, sure, I could hold back on my aggro, but then the whole advantage of PLD in this setup is shot out the window. If I'm with RNG/NIN I will intentionally hold back before skillchain so Arching Arrow/Heavy Shot will turn the mob so THF or DRK/THF can trick Shark Bite/Spinning Slash on me... but ideally a RNG/WAR would be better. There have been times that even RNG/WAR can't pull the mob from me with Arching, so they had to Provoke (which will definitely do the job).

The thing is at high levels you don't use Sidewinder as often because you are more involved in skillchains. Plus good RNG don't just spam damage dealing arrows, they use acid bolts and whatnot to help the party out.

Of course, there have been two instances where hate holding has been an issue. First setup was PLD, WAR, RNG, BLM, BRD, RDM. I used GS and skillchained with WAR Mistral Axe > Spinning Slash, while RNG soloed Sidewinder and Barrage and BLM burst whatever. That was a crazy party and holding hate was an issue since no one was holding back, but it was extremely fun.

In another setup, the RNG/NIN used guns and silver bullets. Needless to say, the RNG had no trouble getting aggro whenever he wanted :sweat: