Sub: Nin vs. RNG and Sidewinder.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Kenki
How good is +12.5 acc? Kenchan said it's 3% of her total Rngacc and this 3% difference in the total acc makes you hit 30% or 90% of the time. Sounds like a difference between a B+ and A- (79% and 82%).

As I already stated, at LV60 the accuracy difference between having a Hawker's in the sub slot and not having one is greater than the accuracy difference between an A rank weapon and C rank weapon.

Surely you agree that there is a significant accuracy difference between A rank and C rank weapons at that level? Even B rank weapons (e.g. SAM polearm) are considered unacceptably inaccurate for exp parties.

[greysenn]

If possible, you can make a complete list of total miss and hit of having +12.5 rngacc and not have it. Using on same type of monster with similar levels. Write down the total accuracy then we will see.

You don't need a list. You can easily check the difference from High IT's to Low IT's which probably have around that much evasion difference. Your hit rate will range dramaticly between the 2.... IF you're not breaking the monsters agi + evasion. If you are, your range in misses will be significantly smaller. Compare Low IT's hit rates to VT's and T's. You'll notice there isn't much of a difference in your hit rate.

I see what Keichan was talking about with being able to end up a bit ahead via buying time. It's a pretty neat trick, although I don't see it really working around my level because the majority of the fights don't get ended soon enough. Time will tell tho.

Well, seeing how Vit is used to lower overall max damage (see pld forum), I'm guessing there IS a raw stat check before any of the skill checks. This would explain why +15 Agi is such a big deal and why every ranger wants those Kotes (or Crimson finger gauntlets).

It's not just that, you've got 10 Racc on them as well. Thats huge (17.5 racc) on a slot that is generally un-used, that you wouldn't have to sacrifice /war stuff for if you didn't want to.
It's also probably enough combined with all the other goodies. (Let us not forget the passive acc boost at 70) to push you over the threshold on some of the gods.

All in all, good stuff. I'm suprised something useful came out of this, and Spidey got us another ranger posting. Wtg.

[Keichan]

3% was a rough figure... I didn't want to go through all of my equipment to calculate the percentage but here it is:

7 Head
17.5 Hand
10 Ring
10 Ring
7 Axe
11 Dagger
2 Bow
2 Pants
2 Earring
1.5 Earring
5 Arrow

I have 269 archery.

You can calculate all you want about how 10 accuracy is nothing compared to how much ranged accuracy I have but perhaps that critical 10 accuracy, even just 2 accuracy will affect your game in the long run.

75+63+180 =137+180=200+37+80= 200+117=317 (Sorry, I have no calculator on me=P

So I have 317 Ranged Accuracy total and you claim that you'd rather have 307 accuracy + berserk than 317 accuracy (saying that 10 accuracy is "nothing"). Well, say what you like to say. But when you start hitting those God HNM's (if you even hit). I'd want your opinion on how it feels to miss 90% of all your shots compared to large improvement seen when you add that measily 10 accuracy.

In fact, I bet all of you ranger/ninjas have seen the improvement the moment you guys hit lvl 28 when you start equipping archer's knives. +20% percent damage to a HNM once every 10 shots will not beat even a ranger missing half their shots normally. As Dan stated, it is binary.

[poweryoga]

I know the Kote has +10 accuracy on them, But for simplicity's sake we will include them in all tests. I just wanted to know if the Kotes are the ones affecting accuracy, not the extra knife.

Well, I'm not going to ask Keichan to sub war against a god...

so that'll have to be done via normal mobs... or maybe nobody would care anyways? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Kenki]

@Spider-Dan:

If there is a significant difference between 10 points of accuracy at lv 60+ while there isn't any significant difference between 300 and 310 attack then I do think that SE is making a serious mistake.

The hitting rate between 307 and 317 accuracy is 60% (90-30 = 60) then each unit from 307 to 317 will have a large number (5% accuracy). Ex: 308 is greatly larger than 307, 309 is greatly larger than 308....

From the neutral point of view, those numbers are just rediculous. I don't think SE would make such thing. SE wants all the jobs which can do the same thing will have just enough differences to make the jobs distinct of one another. They don't want to make a job's skill completely useless.

@greysenn:

I strongly don't want to just look at the chat log and give out the result. People tend to make wrong esimation over raw data. Also, when people make such thing they are not at the neutral point of view thus making the impression that +10 acc has a very large impact on accuracy.

I, myself, had the wrong impression on the raw data too! I thought that high Vit reduced chance of taking critical hits and critical damage taken. I was wrong. Agi reduces chance of taking critical hits and Vit reduces the max damage taken.


Also about the fact that 2Agi = 1Rngacc, this fact is still unclear! Nobody actually knows if 2Dex = 1Acc so how could he know 2Agi = 1Rngacc???

[KamaAina]

Okay I am really confused here.... Why are you guys using the example of a Tulia HNM God?

I mean how does one HMM (not even your average day HNM the gods are different they have no other mobs in the area, super high evasion etc.) determine what the best sub is?

I thought this thread was about which one is better in an XP party?

All I can say about that is based on my expierience I have friends who are higher level (it is really depressing when you are doing genkei 1 while the people you helped get Khazam keys for are fighting Maat I shouldn't have changed jobs so much). But I am not going to use what they say because I dont want to use second hand information.

As far as hate goes pre level 50 with /NIN I could easily pull hate off of the PLD constantly just by shooting nonstop (not counting barrage and WS) I partied with good PLDs but they just didn't have the tools.

After 50 I found with some new gear for the PLD and other things I could shoot nonstop with NIN and not pull hate. I could even shoot of most WS's without pulling agro (which I count on doing so that the thf can trick onto the PLD) the only time I really pulled agro was after a good WS, or barrage. So I have been using /WAR and find that it is really alot more damage vs. crabs. When I am using /WAR though I always party with a BRD or WAR for prelude or breaks it really helps sometimes even a DRK with abs spells and blm with frost can help a whole bunch.

What I have found is that the difference between the subs is huge.

Sub war and get a huge difference in damage as much as 25 points with berserk

or sub NIN and see a HUGE difference in ACC (yes I agree with spidey and Keichan that the difference of just 12.5 accuracy is a big deal. You definatley notice the difference. In fact most of my barrages with /WAR are considerably less then with /NIN because with /NIN even though I hit for less I usually connected all shots. With /WAR I get about the same damage.

say around 550-600 on IT high defense crabs in kuftal with /NIN with all shots connecting
and the same damage with /WAR with one or 2 arrows not connecting with berserk even if 3 less arrows connect I get about the same damage. But I have less TP so I know that I missed. However when they all hit I do crazy damage (700+ on IT high defense that had been abs VIT and abs AGI) my regular shots with /NIN would range about 80-90 a shot on these and with /WAR its more consistently 95-100 and 115-120 with berserk. But I also notice that I miss once or twice more with /WAR.

But there is a limit to acc.... if you can hit consistently with /NIN and dont pull agro then maybe you should sub /WAR. If you actually connect with /WAR then the damage is amazing.

as for /SAM I dont know I am not 60 yet. But spamming sidewinders seems like pure suicide and I hear their accuracy is terrible.

/THF I don't even know why you would sub that except for farming. Personally I wouldn't invite a /THF to a party just because there are so many better subs. (on that note if they ever made SATA work with ranged attacks )

[greysenn]

Have fun charting it out.

You're going to have to make a different graph for each mob, per level of ranger, at each different accuracy. I have noticed that the level of accuracy difference becomes greater for each level particularly once you get away from those big acc+ levels.

You may say that chatlog may be misleading, but you can't honestly tell me you can't feel when you're doing poorly or not. If you're having hard time hitting the stuff, sub ninja. I use both subs, and they're both very useful.

[evilution]

The hitting rate between 307 and 317 accuracy is 60% (90-30 = 60) then each unit from 307 to 317 will have a large number (5% accuracy). Ex: 308 is greatly larger than 307, 309 is greatly larger than 308....

here, have a clue. There is an evade number, and there is an "accuracy" number. its not that between 307 and 317 each increase gives you 5%, its that the difference between 307 and 317 puts you over the targets evade barrier.

[Keichan]

Fine fine fine... I just got a damage parser. I'll play around with it for now. And if I find anything special, I'll post it.

[Kenki]

There is an evade number, and there is an "accuracy" number. its not that between 307 and 317 each increase gives you 5%, its that the difference between 307 and 317 puts you over the targets evade barrier.

This is what I don't agree with. If this thing is true then there is a huge difference between 1 or 2 units of accuracy. Suppose there is the evade number is set for a particular mob so that you need accuracy of 316 to hit 90%. Any number lower than that will hit less than 30% (315 or less). I don't know where did you find that info but that is just not right.

You may say that chatlog may be misleading, but you can't honestly tell me you can't feel when you're doing poorly or not.

I agree that you can feel if you hit more or less by subbing /nin or /war. What I don't agree with is that people tend to exaggerate things.

Just like when people think that the +Str in Elvaan Rng/War makes him hit more per hit compare to a Mithra Rng/Nin at same level with same equipments and level. It is true but it is not significant enough to even call it a difference!

Same thing goes to /war or /nin, 12.5 acc is not a small number but that number can't just cause a hitting of 90% compare to 30%. I agree that +12.5 acc is more accurate and can be noticable but not with a 60% difference.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Kenki

This is what I don't agree with. If this thing is true then there is a huge difference between 1 or 2 units of accuracy. Suppose there is the evade number is set for a particular mob so that you need accuracy of 316 to hit 90%. Any number lower than that will hit less than 30% (315 or less). I don't know where did you find that info but that is just not right.

This is how it works. I'm not sure why you decided that 1 accuracy point would make a 60% difference, but certainly, if the mob's evasion is, say, 320, the difference between a player with 300 RACC and 315 RACC should be quite dramatic.

I'm not sure why you're surprised that such a small change in stats can make such a big difference. While exping throughout the entire game, gaining as few as 3 levels can change a mob from being an extremely difficult exp fight to being overly easy for a party to mow down. There's not a whole lot of stat change on a level-to-level basis, and it seems perfectly consistent and logical that a double-digit stat increase should make a significant difference.

[McClane]

/shocked @ tihs post >.>

as they say here are my 2 cents
War and nin can be both good subs, it depends on pt...

Nin sub
More accuricy is nice, but with a brd in your pt it doesn't make rng hit THAT much more, looking at ws's the difference is even smaller
(changing war to nin sub won't change a bad pt into a good one, it doesn't effect accuricy THAT much, is can make a good pt an even better one tho ^^)
Most important thing to nin sub I think is utsusemi, cause when you get hate you won't take dmg, save mp cause mages don't have to heal you and thus speed up the pt

War sub
Does more dmg

So what I do is look @ my pt and decide if we need some mp saved so we can keep on chaining or if we can miss the mp and kill faster so we can keep on chaining
After 66 you get light renkei tho and I would think war sub would be better here cause arching arrow has much better accuricy (people tell me, haven't used it that much so far) but that is still a bit of a guess now

My current set is PLD/THF/RNG/RDM/BRD/WHM and we NEED the dmg I do cause we kill slow as it is ><;;, I can't see how anyone would argue nin would be better here, cause we have like unlimited mp >.>

For the HNM game I think nin is the best sub, but I don't have that much expierence with HNM's and could easily be mistaken

[Kenki]

I'm not sure why you're surprised that such a small change in stats can make such a big difference. While exping throughout the entire game, gaining as few as 3 levels can change a mob from being an extremely difficult exp fight to being overly easy for a party to mow down. There's not a whole lot of stat change on a level-to-level basis, and it seems perfectly consistent and logical that a double-digit stat increase should make a significant difference.

I do think there are a lot of stat changes in 3 levels. Not only your skill level will affect the accuracy but your level might also affect it. I don't think that 1 skill = 1 rngacc. Skill level has a larger impact on accuracy than the +acc item.

At certain level, you gain new equipments which widen the gap between one level and another but not noticeable enough unless it's a dramatic change (ie. 20rng acc bonus compares to none at lv 28).

Also, as you level up, not only you level but the whole party also level up. When people work in a party, they are much stronger than they are alone. If you level up, there isn't much impact on the power if you are soloing (not count the lv 1~20). If you level up in a party and there are some other member level up too, then that will make the party stronger. If everone in a party is lv 36 then there is at least 6 level difference (more than 6 levels) in term of power compare to a party of lv 35.

I don't know if 1 acc point can affect 60% accuracy since it's evilution's concept about the evasion barrier and the acc needed to break the evasion barrier. What I think was if there is 60% difference between each accuracy point can be as much as 5% on average. Since he point out that idea about the barrier, we must have some kind of a dramatic change between the difference in acc.

I agree there is a difference but I don't think the difference will be anywhere higher than 25% for 12.5 rngacc at lv 60+.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Kenki

I agree there is a difference but I don't think the difference will be anywhere higher than 25% for 12.5 rngacc at lv 60+.

How did you arrive at the number of 25%?

There's a 75RNG saying that at LV70, just 9 RACC made a huge difference in her accuracy (see the original post re: cockatrices). On what basis do you disagree? Because you think that it shouldn't? That's not a counterpoint, that's a complaint.

[Kenki]

There's a 75RNG saying that at LV70, just 9 RACC made a huge difference in her accuracy (see the original post re: cockatrices). On what basis do you disagree? Because you think that it shouldn't? That's not a counterpoint, that's a complaint.

I put out the 25% is just a guess, it's not accurate. I used "think" since I don't have any data to confirm that.

I don't agree on the fact that people tend to overestimate or underestimate things. There is no much of a concrete evidence on the 60% difference. I don't believe that is 90% and 30% between a Rng/Nin and Rng/War. People just estimate it based on the 1st impression. Collect some data and tests, those can make a better estimation.

If the difference is truely that huge then it's a complain. SE wants the game to be relatively equal and provide a variety for the players. The difference that huge will make one selection becomes greatly superior to the others. If anyone can confirm the difference in damage over time from +12.5 acc an extra knife can make and if the difference is greater than 30%, I will make a letter for the development team of FFXI about that.