Sub: Nin vs. RNG and Sidewinder.

[Jaytwo]

I've gone through and read the posts on WAR vs. NIN subjob, but no one really touches on the effects once you get Sidewinder. I'm an Elvaan ranger, and I level both Ninja and War just to be safe. The main reason I've leveled Ninja is I've been afraid of my accuracy with Sidewinder as an Elvaan RNG/WAR. I was just wondering if any other rangers level 55+ could comment on this?

P.S. Please lets not turn this into a flame war on which sub is best or how good/not good elvaan rng are

[TaruSGonEWilD]

Well I'm not sure how much the str difference affects sidewinder dmg but missing with a sidewinder is going to be my single most important factor on how I grade efficency as a ranger when I get there. I'd rather do a little less damage and hit alot more with sidewinder than do a little more dmg with war. The other thing is that the more you hit with your bow the faster you will build tp, so dual wielding acher knives seems like a much better idea. Using sidewinder more and hitting with it more often seems like the way to go, for me atleast.

[FeralisCallidus]

I'd rather do a little less damage and hit alot more with sidewinder than do a little more dmg with war.

You got that kinda mixed up.

Lemme fix it for you:

"I'd rather do a lot less damage and hit a little more with sidewinder than do a lot more damage with a war. "


There, all fixed. =)

[poweryoga]

if you're elvaan, you're pretty much stuck with Nin if you don't want abysmal accuracy.

I personally don't miss that many sidewinders as it is... i have my good days and my bad days.

[cesaro]

Feralis really nailed it I think.

The difference in damage between NIN and WAR sub with sidewinder is quite impressive. However, with NIN sub it is possible to go at a lower TP% and still have a good chance at hitting.

Although, I rarely have less than 175-200% by the time the DRK gets to 100% if thats any consolation.

When you miss a sidewinder, everything stops...no skillchain, no MB, and sometimes the end of your XP chain. Not fun. /NIN makes some of the pain go away.

Simple math equation:
RNG/WAR at 62 + Torama + Sidewinder = 0 damage
62 was a horrible level to be /war in onzozo. I think I missed 5-6 sides in a row one night.

[poweryoga]

funny thing is... i went to CN to kill precessionares at lvl 62.... hit almost every sidewinder (no brd).

Then I went at lvl 64.... missed 5/6 sidewinders. You'd think i'd hit more with a higher level, but i didn't. Maybe God didn't want me to die cuz of our CRAPPY ASS TANK... but thats a different story.

I've come to think of these sidewinder accuracy is.... really random. If you have an off day, you're not gonna hit jack even with /nin and a bard. If you have a good day, you'll hit everything with a blind fold on...

/nin i'm sure would make some of the missing go away, but i'm sure I'd miss just as many with /nin on the bad days.

Its all real.... weird to me.... I'm becoming more and more paranoid about these sidewinder stuff. :confused: :confused:

[Ghost1183]

I just lvled rng for the first time in 2 weeks ( got bored of playing ) . 2 times I missed 300 Tp sidewinders . I didnt use sharpshot , because it is macroed with barrage ( need to fix that ) . I have to say I was pretty upset with missing 300 TP sidewinders .
If you read the desrciption of sidewinder it says " inaccurate shot " . Man they are so not lieing . I use NIN sub with archer dagger and fransisca . Gear 2 +1 scorpion rings , war bow +1 , scorpion arrows , amemit mantle , R.k. belt +1 , and AF gear . We were fighting IT high evasion Toramas . I have to say I missed about 4 or 5 sidewinders in a 3 hour pt . I rarely missed a regular shot but I believe a /war would have flunked big time . I found that once you go to Cape Terrigan to lvl you pretty much have to have NIN sub ( IMO). Regardless what anyone elses thinks I believe RNGs will always miss some form of attack . I have seen people with full AF , 2 archer daggers and a peacock charm miss sidewinder . Well cant wait for Arching Arrow .

[Nao]

Man I hear ya poweryoga. It's really random for me too.

[Wels]

Windurst rank 7 CP Arrow is pretty good for sidewinder with 40 ranged accuracy, but you can only use it every 3 min. I do 100% TP sidewinders pretty ok, and it is funny, I had the same experience on the Boyhada proc...somethign worms as poweryoga

[cesaro]

I actually had much better luck with sidewinder in cape teriggan at 64 than I did for most of my time in onzozo.

But ya, some days it just seems like someone doesnt want you to hit side.

And now in my party, if I miss sidewinder, the PLD and DRK dont get their chain off and they aren't too happy

Oh well, one level from Arching arrow. Hope that works out ok.

[Pandar]

/NIN would be good for dual wiedling hawkers after you get sidewinder since it has horrible accuracy even with 300% tp
/WAR is good for damage and dying more

[KamaAina]

I just think that the whole argument over /WAR is classic.

You are in such denial if you think that the accuracy difference is just a tiny bit. So +10 Ranged Accuracy and 1 agi, are just a tiny difference.

So then why are you wasting your gil on those new rings, why wear a RK belt, in fact why not just go in there naked because the difference is minute? To me people spending 3 million gil on a peacock charm speaks to the importance of a measly +10 ranged accuracy.

And you claim you dont miss... I partied with /SAMs and /WARs with my ranger and my monk and my warrior. I have friends who sub /war and they say the same thing. Then I party with them and I am amazed at how much they miss.... maybe its not that much but it is way too much for me. I like hitting, its the way I play. You like big numbers its the way you play. In the end the damage is pretty much the same. Unless you are fighting low evasion monsters with a bard there is a difference in accuracy.

I sub both /WAR and /NIN I would rather sub /WAR but I sub /NIN for other reasons other then accuracy. I sub it for Utsusemi, defender doesn't cut it if you are going to be taking hits. Oh look with defender my defense goes from being a Tarutaru BLM to being.... a tarutaru whm. So instead of hitting me for like 100 a hit the mob hits me for 90 which isn't enough to save my life. I have a thf in the party usually and I have to be trick partner (not being tricked on but pulling agro for the Skillchain). So I get hit and even when I am not doing this. I do enough damage as it is that I make use of my Utsusemi... sure I could do more damage with /WAR but if I did even the same amount I would A. Be dead. or B. be kicked from the part for using up all the mp to save me.

And I dont even have Sidewinder yet. I am also planning on getting Eurytos bow... I dont know how I am going to not get killed WITH /NIN I couldn't imagine with /WAR.

In the end its how you play. If accuracy is your big thing then go /NIN if damage is then go /WAR.

Don't bash the other choice in the end they are about the same.

[poweryoga]

Don't bash the other choice in the end they are about the same.

so why are you bashing war subs?

Nobody is bashing anything... you come in with the flamethrower loaded when this is really just a friendly discussion.

Defender is not meant for you to take 4-5 hits straight in a row. A decent pld can pull hate back in just 1 hit. I use it if I hit a 1k+ damage sidewinder (something nins can't do) and then its only for 1-2 hits while pld throws cover on me. I rarely get hit even if I sub war because most of the plds I party with are good enough. If the pld sucks ass, subbing nin is not going to save your ass for a leveling session. I guarantee you WILL DIE.

So in the end, i see no real point in subbing nin (yet) just because the situations I've been in does not call for more accuracy or utsusemi yet.

[FeralisCallidus]

You are in such denial if you think that the accuracy difference is just a tiny bit. So +10 Ranged Accuracy and 1 agi, are just a tiny difference.

Ok, math time!

203Archery Skill x 0.9 = 183 ACC
70AGI x 0.5 = 35 ACC
+51 RNG ACC [ Gear ]

= 269 Ranged Accuracy, with one archer's knife.

Oh, and before you start asking about the skill thing, it was established in an interview with an SE representative somewhere. ANYWAY...

10.5/269 = LESS than a 4% increase in accuracy. Hmm...


Compared to 'zerk's 20% increase in damage, attack bonus's inherent damage up, WAR's STR bonuses and WARCRY. I don't think 4% will cut it.


SO, we are in agreement that RNG/WAR is a much better offensive weapon than RNG/NIN. Ok, how about defensive? Well, who gives a shit? RNG isn't meant to take damage. Don't make it. There is no reason you should take more than 2-3 hits a fight, with a decent PLD. And even this is the WHM's problem. Have him throw an aerial armor on you. It isn't worth lowering the PT's offensive capabilities by 10% just so you can be a careful little baby afraid of dying.

[KamaAina]

Originally posted by poweryoga


so why are you bashing war subs?

Nobody is bashing anything... you come in with the flamethrower loaded when this is really just a friendly discussion.

Defender is not meant for you to take 4-5 hits straight in a row. A decent pld can pull hate back in just 1 hit. I use it if I hit a 1k+ damage sidewinder (something nins can't do) and then its only for 1-2 hits while pld throws cover on me. I rarely get hit even if I sub war because most of the plds I party with are good enough. If the pld sucks ass, subbing nin is not going to save your ass for a leveling session. I guarantee you WILL DIE.

So in the end, i see no real point in subbing nin (yet) just because the situations I've been in does not call for more accuracy or utsusemi yet.

Ok so its just a friendly situation with no bashing of other subs.... Have you actually read your's or Feralis's posts? "i see no real point in subbing nin" "we are in agreement that RNG/WAR is a much better offensive weapon than RNG/NIN"

"Ok, how about defensive? Well, who gives a shit? RNG isn't meant to take damage"

" It isn't worth lowering the PT's offensive capabilities by 10% just so you can be a careful little baby afraid of dying."

as opposed to my one statement.


That /NINs will hit MORE then /WARs.... which as much as you want to deny it Feralis is true. 4% yeh.. well the hit ratio is not just a 4% ratio I hate to break it to you buddy. But keep telling yourself that, and that every single Ranger who subs Ninja must be an idiot because /WAR is the ultimate subjob, nothing else can compare. Why you can't you just admit that /WARs WILL miss more then /NIN and its not just one shot a night.

You know what Feralis you are just a jerk. All I was saying was that both /WAR and /NIN have their upsides and it is completly a matter of how you play. Then you and Poweryoga come and accuse me of flaming /WAR. I sub /WAR all the time its a great sub in alot of situations yeh it is better.. I mean if I can hit on the dot consistently have a bard in the party and never draw agro then /NIN isn't really needed. But why can't you just admit that they are both good subs, and both have their bonuses. Anyone who is not as completly thick headed as you two can see that.


The difference is I am not sitting here and saying that I am the perfect ranger. That ninja is the ultimate sub and so therefore I am a better ranger then you. I know I am not, I am a hume so even with the same gear and sub as you the elves are going to hit harder and the mithra are going to hit more often. I know there are people with better gear too, and they make better rangers. I can't compare to someone with a peacock charm and I think its great that they got it (I dont think its a stupid investment because that 10 Ranged accuracy is only 4% more blah blah blah I accept that they are better because of it, or else people wouldn't wear gear).

All I am saying is I sub /ninja because to ME hitting more often, and not draining the mp of the party when I do get hit (maybe you don't whatever I like my PLD and I still get hit sometimes because I setup renkei with a thf I dont know how you don't get hit doing that). Maybe you play differently, you hit harder then I do with /WAR, I sub /WAR alot too its fun its a fantastic sub. But so is /NIN it depends on how you like to play and the situation.

So how am I flaming agian? By saying that both are great subs, and defending /NIN because even though you claim not too all you are doing is stating your opinion of how terrible it is?