Are Rangers really powerful?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by replica
sure, a quote on nin vs rng but you go on to say that RNG destroy every class in damage.

So? If you look at the complete game, 1-75 (plus post-exp content), no DD can touch RNG. That is not at all inconsistent with what I'm saying, which is that for a specific section of levels, THF can outdamage RNG.

how did this turn from a question of RNGs power to THF vs RNG for players under 60?

Actually reading the thread would answer this question nicely. Somewhere around page 3 should do it.

Since it already is though, and I'm curious~ what are your levels anyways, Dan?

Currently 58RNG, 53THF, other stuff. Do I need to have a job leveled to 75 in order to comment on LV15-45?

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
If you look at the complete game, 1-75 (plus post-exp content), no DD can touch RNG. That is not at all inconsistent with what I'm saying, which is that for a specific section of levels, THF can outdamage RNG.

Even if you are saying, at a big picture, RNG is the most powerful DD, yet at certain level THF is the most powerful, that is somewhat inconsistent.

Looking back, you asked me why your theory was perceived as wrong by default, and why the onus of proof was on you. The reason is simple: even you admit that in the big picture, RNG is the mostpowerful DD and no other DD can touch the class. So your claim that THF is more powerful at certain levels goes against this belief, no? So that would mean, by your standards, you would need a lot of proof and evidence to back it up?

We both presented reasons why THF is more damaging than RNG and vice versa, and you admitted that your only basis on this was your limited parsing. Needless to say, this is all pretty much theoretical still, which is why I still think it's pointless to continue arguing in this debate so strongly (and all its tangents) until you and I, or some other competent RNG and THF, parse their results.

I think another reason why you *underestimate* RNG damage at those levels is because you were never in a good PT (i.e. a 2-3 RNG PT). In a multi RNG PT, the RNG doesn't have to hold back as much, and thus our damage is a lot higher. If you had a PLD/RNG/RDM/WHM/BRD PT or something, and had 1 spot left, would you invite a THF or RNG? Which job would do more damage? The answer here would be RNG.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Looking back, you asked me why your theory was perceived as wrong by default, and why the onus of proof was on you. The reason is simple: even you admit that in the big picture, RNG is the mostpowerful DD and no other DD can touch the class. So your claim that THF is more powerful at certain levels goes against this belief, no?

Not any more than your implication that RNG may not be the strongest from 65-75 does:

Originally posted by imac2much
But for the majority of the game, I'd say levels 1 ~ 65 definitely, a well equipped RNG will always do significantly more damage than another DD.

As far as I see it, even if RNG loses to one class from 15-45, and another class from 65-75, RNG still comes out ahead overall.

We both presented reasons why THF is more damaging than RNG and vice versa, and you admitted that your only basis on this was your limited parsing.

No, actually, I gave quite a few logical reasons why RNG should be behind, including the huge damage lead that THF jumps out to, and the fact that RNG is limited by tank hate generation in a standard party setup, while THF is not.

I think another reason why you *underestimate* RNG damage at those levels is because you were never in a good PT (i.e. a 2-3 RNG PT). In a multi RNG PT, the RNG doesn't have to hold back as much, and thus our damage is a lot higher.

I think that most of this talk about multi-RNG parties is not quite relevant. People are talking about 3 and 4 RNG parties as if they are common occurances. 90%+ of talk about "multi-RNG parties" I hear in forums comes from RNGs (which obviously makes sense because they are required). I rarely see other jobs talking about multiple RNG PTs as a standard leveling setup, which is consistent with the fact that RNG is the least popular DD in the game.

I've clearly qualified my statements as applying to standard party configs. Would PLD/RNG/RNG get more exp than PLD/RNG/THF from 15-45? I think it would be very close either way, and would depend more on what/where you were fighting.

If you had a PLD/RNG/RDM/WHM/BRD PT or something, and had 1 spot left, would you invite a THF or RNG? Which job would do more damage? The answer here would be RNG.

Replace the WHM with a BLM and again, I disagree. VB Distortion + Blizzaga/Blizz II would make a significant difference, and RNG+RNG+PLD would not touch RNG+THF+PLD in useful SC output (consider that RNG could potentially SC with both PLD and THF). When you bring the entire party dynamic in line, this doesn't necessarily win your side.

[John Doe III]

You guys are still debating? ..Get a life....really. It's pretty pathetic that you argue about the same thing for 17 pages.

[imac2much]

Holy crap dan, you're REALLY grasping for straws now. I actually went out of my way to make my reply as little argumentative as possible, yet you really love to try to nitpick and point out ANY form in which people who disagree with you may be wrong.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Not any more than your implication that RNG may not be the strongest from 65-75 does

Are you kidding me? You're saying an "implication" is the same thing as you outright STATING thf outdamage RNG for a good 30 levels? Are you freaking putting words in my mouth? Why do you always tell other people to stop doing that; that is EXACTLY what you are doing here. You are REALLY grasping for straws if you think this "implication" is the same thing as what you were doing.

An implication means you are blatantly putting words in my mouth. I *NEVER* stated RNG is least damaging from 65-75. Where have I ever said that? If you check my level, I AM NOT 65+ on my ranger. I know from my PLD that gameplay changes with lvl 3 skillchains, but as a RNG I do NOT know how it affects us, because I AM NOT 65-75.

Geez, find something better basis to argue with, this was so contrived it's laughable.

As far as I see it, even if RNG loses to one class from 15-45, and another class from 65-75, RNG still comes out ahead overall.

Saying that a RNG loses to a class for a good 30 levels (45 levels now that for some reason you put 65-75 in there), is not the same as saying "RNG comes out ahead overall". 30 levels is nearly half the level range, and 45 is more than half. Stay consistent.

No, actually, I gave quite a few logical reasons why RNG should be behind, including the huge damage lead that THF jumps out to, and the fact that RNG is limited by tank hate generation in a standard party setup, while THF is not.

? Why are you trying to make an argument where no argument was originally implied? I conceded both of us presented our theories, but our factual basis is limited. Forgive me for not making that clearer, I meant your only factual basis were your limited parsings (which is more than what I have, and why I want to parse this in a test environment). I did not even write that paragraph as an agument -_-;

I've clearly qualified my statements as applying to standard party configs. Would PLD/RNG/RNG get more exp than PLD/RNG/THF from 15-45? I think it would be very close either way, and would depend more on what/where you were fighting.

You're kidding me right? Have you ever been in a good multi RNG PT? You honestly think a conventional PLD/RNG/THF PT can come *very* close? Have you made 8-10k xp/hr in a lvl 30-45 PT?

You bring good points about BLM being able to magic burst, etc. But do you realize that at the rate we kill things, the BLM will have no time to rest? I tried some RNG/RNG/BLM and RNG/RNG/BLM/THF as well. The best PTs have always been NIN/RNG/RNG/RNG/BRD/healer. If I bring party dynamics into the discussion, multi-RNG PT will always win over a conventional PT. At certain levels multi-BLM/RDM/BRD Pt works well too, but this is hardly conventional either.

Dan, seriously:
1) Stop finding arguments where there were no arguments. I didn't even make an argumentative post yet you seem to enjoy dissecting every little sentence I make to make a debate where none previously existed.
2) Stop being a hypocrite. You don't like other people putting words in your mouth right? So don't do it to me either. I assume you only did it because you wanted to argue over some small insignicant detail, but it's extremely ignorant and hypocritical of you. I never once outright said "RNG is outdamaged by <insert job> consistently at 65-75 when both jobs are at full potential" because this isn't even what I believe.
3) We disagree on a lot of our theoretical beliefs and this is why we believe one class is more damaging over the other. Yet I stress this is all theoretical and cannot be proven with just a forum discussion. You say a RNG has to hold back a lot, but you obviously have never been in a good multi RNG PT (since you think a conventional PT can even keep up in xp). Multi RNG PTs do not have to hold back since tank holds hate fine until monster is 50% (and the little aggro you get, you use shadows, until tank can provoke/enfeeble/cure/JA the hate back), then you use JA/WS at near end of fight.

The following is not a flame on the fact you are low level or don't play as much, so don't take it this way. But seriously in the last few months more than 50% of the higher level jobs in HNM LS's have quit their main job or put it on hold and started leveling RNG. There is a huge abundance of RNG at all levels now. Maybe not as much as DRK and stuff, but they are a lot more common now than they were before. It's crazy how many RNG I see nowadays, almost 80% of them with lvl 70+ main jobs. Multi RNG PTs are not as uncommon as you may think. My rl friend hwo plays a 65 PLD says every PT so far he's been invited to has had 2-3 RNG in it. I get several invites a day from pt creaters who say "already have 1 (or 2) rng, you want to join?". And even though I have a semi-spt with ethreal and nsxtasy, I sometimes make a random pt to catch up or something, and I've always had t least 1 other RNG ith me. Multi RNG PT's are not as uncommon as you may think dan, and when the pt leaders are forming it and have 1 dd spot left open with 2 rng already, do you think they want a 3rd rng or a thf?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Holy crap dan, you're REALLY grasping for straws now. I actually went out of my way to make my reply as little argumentative as possible, yet you really love to try to nitpick and point out ANY form in which people who disagree with you may be wrong.

Rather than address your entire post (because that would probably be nitpicking), I'll just point out that the post I replied to was a nitpick of a statement I made to someone else.

THF beating RNG for 30 midrange levels is perfectly consistent with RNG doing the most overall damage from 1-75. Nowhere did I even remotely imply that THF does more damage from 65-75 (I specifically said "another class").

[imac2much]

I know dan, and I know what you're trying to say. It's still inconsistent with the statement you make:

Do not try to sidestep into comparing NIN to RNG, who destroys every class in damage anyway.

You're still saying RNG is beaten by some other job for a good 45 levels, which is inconsistent with that statement.

This is nitpicking, I agree, but this wasn't the only thing you replied to anyway. You like to go off on tangents, and I can't help that. The main topic here (I think) is still which job is more damaging from 15-45: THF with pure melee or RNG overall. Everything else is nitpicking in some form or another, but I don't disagree with the majority of your posts. Still, there are some that don't make sense, so I point them out. You're not totally wrong, we just don't totally agree with everything, and in fact much of this discussion is STILL theoretical, since neither of us are 15-45 anymore. I conceded you provided some points for your side, as I did for mine, and it's hard to tell from a purely theoretical standpoint which is "more true" than the other. But like I said when you say something that is not totally true, I point it out. I.e. you saying a conventional PT can keep up in xp as a good multi RNG PT... I don't think conventional PT's make 8-10k xp/hour, but if anyone can prove me wrong that's fine.

P.S. No apologies for being a hypocrite and putting words in my mouth?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
P.S. No apologies for being a hypocrite and putting words in my mouth?

And yet, if I defend myself from this accusation, you'll accuse me of nitpicking.

not replying to every word (only when I do it) = selective reading
replying to every word (only when I do it) = nitpicking

And speaking of putting words in other peoples' mouths, where did I say that RNG is beaten by "some other job" for 45 levels?

If RNG loses to job A for 30 levels, and job B for 10 levels, then RNG still comes out ahead overall. They beat job A 45-30 and job B 65-10.

[imac2much]

You're dancing around the point: you DID put words in my mouth. You tried to compare your outright statement with a supposed "implication" of mine, which was totally incorrect anyway. You never admit you're wrong anyway, so I guess I'm a fool for expecting an apology.

You said RNG is inferior to another job for 45 levels. It doesn't have to be the same job, you're still saying RNG is overshadowed in SOME WAY OR ANOTHER for 45 total levels out of 75 possible levels. You don't see this as a direct contradiction of:

Do not try to sidestep into comparing NIN to RNG, who destroys every class in damage anyway.

If RNG destroys every class in damage, then why does it get overshadowed in some form or another for a supposed 45 levels?

Even if we said 30, that's still almost half the entire level range. If you say, "well, 15-45 goes a lot faster than later levels!" which is also true, then the same can be said that 65-75 takes almost as much time to xp as 1-50 or more. Either way, it's a direct contradiction to your claim that "RNG destroys every class in damage". Just make up your mind.

I don't care if it's 30 or 45. I actually did not even know you assumed RNG is outdamaged by others at 65-75 (and you have ZERO experience with this, so why bother arguing about this?). Did you read what I posted?

Saying that a RNG loses to a class for a good 30 levels (45 levels now that for some reason you put 65-75 in there), is not the same as saying "RNG comes out ahead overall". 30 levels is nearly half the level range, and 45 is more than half. Stay consistent.

You put words in my mouth, this is easily seen. I did NOT put words in your mouth, your freakin exact quotes are that RNG is overshadowed (by THF) from 15-45 and "another job" from 65-75. You're REALLY grasping for straws again, if you are trying to say you didn't directly contradict yourself. Are you saying that "destroying every class in damage" means the same thing as "RNG barely comes out ahead in damage overall even though 1 job outdamages it for 2/3 of the level range and another job outdamages it for nearly half the xp range (lvl 65-75 takes about 440k xp(every level takes 35-48k xp), lvl 1-65 takes about the same amount I believe). If someone can correct me about the experience numbers needed for lvls 1-75, please do.

I don't care about the whole 65-75 thing since neither you nor I are that high on RNG yet. Saying RNG destroys every class in damage yet also saying RNG is outdamaged for a good 30 levels out of a possible 75 levels is inconsistent. I guess you won't admit this though.

To be honest, I don't even know where you said that RNG is outdamaged by "another class" 65-75 except on this page (which is why I was confused by this statement). Maybe it was in another thread? It's ridiculous for you to say this though since you have no job that high. And YES in this case levels make a difference, if you don't even have a job capable of doing lvl 3 skillchains in an XP PT, you can't understand the gameplay mechanics of 65-75. That's exactly the reason why I only pointed out 1-65 since I personally have no experience with lvl 3 skillchains AS A RNG.

[Spider-Dan]

At least with Cayne, my discussions were on topic.

Why are the majority of your posts towards me (and only me) focused on forum conduct? When did you become forum police? Why are you so obsessed with receiving an "apology" for every perceived slight of etiquette? Where was your sense of moral outrage when Cayne was flaming for 10 pages with totally wrong information?

I simply mentioned that a specific statement of yours IMPLIED (no, not SAID... IMPLIED) that RNG may not do the most damage from 65-75. But instead of clarifying said statement, you immediately start shouting that I'm putting words in your mouth, call me a hypocrite, and ask for an apology. Sorry, I'm not going to play this particular game. I'm not going to waste time with you talking about forum etiquette if you aren't going to enforce it evenly to every single person.

Back to the actual subjects at hand:

Let me perfectly clarify my statements so as to avoid further "misinterpretation." Based on personal experience, accounts from others, and parsed logs I've seen, I think that from 1-75 (and post-exp), RNG destroys all other jobs in overall damage output. This would be completely consistent with them potentially losing to one job or another during specific stretches, because RNG makes up for it during the rest of the levels (as well as in endgame). That is to say, no other DD can compare to RNG in total overall damage, start to finish.

[imac2much]

As far as I've seen, Cayne has never flamed me, put words in my mouth, or acted like an ass to me. That title belongs solely on your shoulders. If you want to ignore the fact you're a hypocrite and you do things that you chastise others of doing (spreading false information, puttings words in people's mouths), by saying it doesn't matter, then so be it.

I didn't even post for several pages: my first reply for a while was entirely on topic. Try reading? My reply talks about THF, RNG, etc... You were the one who went off on tangents.

Obviously you think discussion of "forum etiquette" is a waste of time when it just happens that you are violating the very "etiquette" you force on others. But when this happens, "you are not playing my game." How convenient.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
But instead of clarifying said statement, you immediately start shouting that I'm putting words in your mouth, call me a hypocrite, and ask for an apology.

Originally posted by imac2much
I *NEVER* stated RNG is least damaging from 65-75. Where have I ever said that? If you check my level, I AM NOT 65+ on my ranger. I know from my PLD that gameplay changes with lvl 3 skillchains, but as a RNG I do NOT know how it affects us, because I AM NOT 65-75.

/gg
It's obvious why your replies are so stubbornly inconsistent and vacuous: you don't fully read posts before replying.

[poweryoga]

don't bother with dan.

He reads the first and last word of some paragraph, then fills the middle in with what he wants it to be.

You get more productivity licking a spoon stuck in an electric socket.

[Spider-Dan]

imac, you do have a LV75 PLD, correct? You have partied with RNGs from 65-75?

This is why I took your statement that RNGs are top from "1-65" as implying that they may not be top from 65-75.

[imac2much]

Understandable, but the post you quoted this from:

Originally posted by imac2much
But for the majority of the game, I'd say levels 1 ~ 65 definitely, a well equipped RNG will always do significantly more damage than another DD.

was in direct response to Truong's post that DRK gets close in DD capabilities thanks to SATA spinning slash. If you read my *entire* post, it went something like this:

Originally posted by imac2much I agree with lvl 3 skillchains the differences will become a lot smaller, but the differences will still exist. At high levels I guess it depends on what you're xping on, since obviously MNKs will outdamage RNG by far in KRT. But for the majority of the game, I'd say levels 1 ~ 65 definitely, a well equipped RNG will always do significantly more damage than another DD. I won't speak for 66+ since as PLD I don't always keep all my damage filters off, but I do notice we killed things a lot faster in multi RNG PTs, even taking into account the fact we didn't use lvl 3 skillchains. It sucks when the DRK/THF with optihat, hauberk, 2xsnipers, thick set still struggles to get 100% TP in one battle (and I have 150-200% TP by the time he has 100%). By the time a DRK/THF has 100%, the RNG could potentially have 300%... meaning at least 2 sidewinders. Food for thought.

Note how I say that the differences still exist, and in my mind RNG is still more powerful 66+, but I don't know for sure since as PLD I don't always keep track of damage.

All of this was in the exact post you quoted me on, so you can't really say you misunderstood my quote, because the context explains it perfectly.

[replica]

Originally posted by poweryoga
don't bother with dan.

He reads the first and last word of some paragraph, then fills the middle in with what he wants it to be.

You get more productivity licking a spoon stuck in an electric socket.

D; dan is a professional debater and can be right in any argument possible. seriously though dan, just become a lawyer or soemthing~ your talent's wasted in the gaming community; be it capcom's or here.