Are Rangers really powerful?

[Cat]

I didn't say damage per hit I said consistancy.

If you want I can just give you my account login and you can post for me since you like changing what I say anyway.

[Cat]

Why don't you respond to the part about SA TA WS and the bold part of my post that actually has to do with the subject instead of attacking me over and over on irrelevant things like dagger damage type and silver arrows quivering and skillchain names. I've admitted to be mistaken about these things and moved on.

Until you focus on the subject matter I wont be telling my THF levels you are just looking for more irrelivant information to attack me with. As long as my thf is past the level range were talking about 1-45 it doesn't matter does it.

Specificly I mean the statements after the numbered list and read 8. before responding as well.

If the next thing you post doesn't address the issues I will have to assume you've conceded your original claim because since you've made the claim but you haven't addressed these issues once. I have brought them up multiple times and everytime you attack me instead of addresssing them.

[Anakron]

Originally posted by Ca
you can only average 1 SATA per minute at best. Don't use pulling downtime to your advantage, a good party wont have enough for you to SATA twice. Without tricking twice every fight your argument is nonexistant

Actually, I think the best parties have a huge problem finding mobs to fight, and as a result, the largest "downtime" is from pulling, which can take upwards of 30 seconds and more if you really wipe the area.

By the way, the first image in your signature looks a lot more like an experience chain than it does a skillchain. Might want to correct your server name in your profile as well.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Anakron
Actually, I think the best parties have a huge problem finding mobs to fight, and as a result, the largest "downtime" is from pulling, which can take upwards of 30 seconds and more if you really wipe the area.

With a good camp this can almost always be avoided.

EDIT:
Before I go any further:
By "downtime" do you mean time from one mob's death to the next right? Afterall minimizing this would minimize downtime.

Also one more thing: Can we agree that with a good camp you can keep pull time to 30 sec average if an area isn't overcrowded in a decent party?

If so:
30 seconds for pulling is the largest downtime so the actual fight will take less than 30 seconds average. Therefore a THF gets less than 1 SATA per fight which is devistating to the THF side of the damage argument.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
I didn't say damage per hit I said consistancy.

"As for the rng who didn't do 100 per hit a lot of people thing they have "good gear" I say his gear is gimped because of the fact he can't keep up with the other RNG who are doing 100+ some of whom have posted that they do so."

So why don't you just post exactly what gear you had at 30 that allowed you to do 100+ damage per hit as a RNG/NIN? Because according to you, anyone who does not do 100 damage per hit is unacceptably gimped.

It seems obvious that you're trying to spin this into "I meant 100+ damage per shot averaged because of my better accuracy from my dual Hawker's +1, which he does not have because he is gimp" or something like that. I would strongly suggest that you avoid this particular tactic, unless you want to be beaten with a math club. (hint: if you aren't doing 100 damage per hit straight up, you certainly won't come close with "80%" accuracy)

Oh, and just to add one more to the list of blatant fabrications by you: can you please explain how there were enough mobs for you to kill to get "10k xp/hr" in Elshimo at LV30? That zone is probably THE most popular spot in the server for LV28-30 parties. There's no way mobs were respawning fast enough to support 10k/hr unless you were roaming all over the zone.

[Cat]

You failed to address the issues in your next post as per my request. I guess you have no argument.

EDIT:
So if you want to discuss this further make a thread for it. I won't discuss it here anymore with you. I've helped you derail this thread enough as it is.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
Why don't you respond to the part about SA TA WS and the bold part of my post that actually has to do with the subject instead of attacking me over and over on irrelevant things like dagger damage type and silver arrows quivering and skillchain names. I've admitted to be mistaken about these things and moved on.

Most of your post is based on some sort of bizarro reality that doesn't apply to 99%+ of parties. You could sum up your position nicely by saying:

"THF is useless because parties regularly get 10k+ xp/hr, which means that THF can only do one SATA per fight at most."

...and everyone would instantly see that as the total fantasy that it is.

You're trying to change the subject to comparing THF's usefulness to RNG's, or RNG parties to THF parties. Not once have I (or anyone else) ever said that THF is more useful or important than RNG, so congratulations on winning an argument that no one made.

The specific statement I made was that in a certain level range, I think THF is the most damaging DD, based on the logs I had seen while leveling THF and RNG. You claim that my RNG is too gimped to be used in the comparison, but after this thread I can safely say that my RNG is several orders of magnitude more competent than your THF, if your demonstration of THF knowledge so far carries over.

[Cat]

This doesn't help your argument any because I already mentioned what happens if THF can SATA twice. Please make another thread.

[ClydeArrowny]

Originally posted by Cat
You failed to address the issues in your next post as per my request. I guess you have no argument.

Originally posted by ClydeArrowny
How am I manipulating things? I quote a point that is posted and counter it with a point of my own. Can you counter my counter-points? If so please go ahead, but you seem to have disregarded many of the points I have stated.

I know your quote was refering to spider-dan, whom which I do not always agree; however, you yourself have ignored my request to counter my points and have just repeated yourself. How then do you have the right to ask of someone else what you yourself will not do?

Originally posted by Cat
When I talk about accuracy and damage its because I said a RNG can consistanly do over 100 dmg per shot. If you miss half your shots you aren't very consistant now are you. I was not suggusting that higher accuracy = higher damage per shot. I never said that, this is what I mean by you manipulating what I said.

Consistantly doing 100+ dmg per shot means nearly every shot that does hit does over 100 dmg. It does not have anything to do with accuracy. Are you not the not in fact manupulating what I say?

Originally posted by Cat
more like 10k an hour because some mobs don't give 200 exp when your pulling that fast you can't be too picky. This isn't hard in Elshimo on madys and suicidal goblins. You're looking for a PT makeup like 2NIN/war to trade hate 2 RNG/NIN a WHM and a BRD or if you want you can probably take 4 RNG/NIN and throw hate around a bit more

I highly doubt you could reach this number, however im not in midgersormr. Due to this I'll give you the benefit that if for some reason on this server there are only 12 people(2 full PTs) leveling at a time in yoto aside from your PT you may be able to reach this number.

Originally posted by ClydeArrowny
Different gear: Possible, but he did state he has "all the good gear" meaning if not "1337" it should at least be above average.

Originally posted by ClydeArrowny
Now considering there factors, how could a RNG with a higher DMG rating, albeit less accuracy rating, hit for a whole 20 dmg less per hit on average?

Originally posted by Cat
I said a RNG can do 100+ dmg consistantly at level 30 if you have bad accuracy you don't do very consistant damage now do you. Also if he didn't get good accuracy gear more than likely he didn't get good damage gear either.

So, because he doesnt have 4 million gil to buy 2 hawker+1 it automatically means he wont spend 20-30k on good attack gear? By the way, STR and DMG help determine the damage curve. Range attack does not affect the damage curve, just the fluxuations within the curve(more likely to hit closer to your max dmg more often.) How then with a higher damage curve than you was he regularly hitting for 20 damage less than you? Even if he had 20 range attack less than you, which I greatly doubt(he probably had same rng attack or 1-2 less), it wouldnt make a difference of 20 dmg per hit.

I'm getting kind of tired of this. Not once have a said thf does more total damage than rng at these levels. Personally I believe rng does much more total damage than thf at these levels and all levels. However I refuse to let someone act like thfs are trash and can hardly do anything in PTs when this person is very ignorant of the job's abilities. Watching McGuyver for a while, might check back later to reply.

[Jaggywaggy]

No, I'm pointing out that you simply have no clue on the vast majority of the subject at hand. You clearly don't know the first thing about THF at all, and most of the numbers you bring up for RNG are highly suspect. You claim to both have better accuracy than a Mithra with more AGI and the same RACC, and do more damage than an Elvaan with the same STR, same RATK, and higher damage arrows. I call BS.

Ding! He hit that nail on the head. That was so well said so lets take a look again.

You claim to both have better accuracy than a Mithra with more AGI and the same RACC, and do more damage than an Elvaan with the same STR, same RATK, and higher damage arrows. I call BS.

-Directed at Cat-

Of course when an explanation is given for this we'll have to hear about hawker+1s again which has absolutely nothing to do with the damage required to break the 100 barrier on a non-crit, but the overall damage, which wasn't the current topic on page 14. Of course maybe acid bolts weren't used in his parties, but of course this never occured to you and you go and call him gimp. Even after acid bolts, 98 damage normal ranged attacks is nothing be ashamed of at or right before lvl 30, why must you be such a lunatic psyco?

-The thf in your party in the dunes using gust slash with 60-70 SAs at lvl 20 to pugils there wasn't gimp...Heck you considered him a great example of a thf's potienal.

-But a rng hitting for 'just' under 100 damage at lvl 30 is gimp?

You couldn't be any more biased in a ranger's favor. You treat that gimp thf like he was actually an acceptable example to our damage, yet put down an what was an above average ranger most likely, at the least clearly not gimp.

This isn't even about ranger's damage anymore, but your clear complete misjudgement of what a thf does. After all those facts, all 7,8, or 9, what ever it was that you didn't know about thf, one would have to be an idiot to believe you have an experience with thief. No it wasn't a few mistakes but nearly a dozen, you obviously are very lost about a thief's job and shouldn't even talk about it.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
"I can use a weaponskill at the start of a fight and easily pull hate off a tricked pld who just voked."

Bullsh*t. Not before Sidewinder, you can't. And unless you somehow managed to have Sidewinder before LV45...

Sorry but I have to correct this, I was in a party at lv. 33 before were a PLD and THF dared me to pull hate in 1 shot after they established it. Of course they let me build up what I needed before the monster we fought tested it on. With Berserk + Meat Mithkabob and 300% TP after the THF SATAWS the PLD and the PLD voked, shield bashed, and then did sentinal. I still in that 1 Piercing Arrow shot took hate off of him.

The same two dared me to pull hate in one shot once I got barrage as well. Again I succeeded in doing it in 1 shot. That is why I state a person playing a RNG/WAR has to have great control to use it to it's full potential. There is a trick to RNG/WAR, if anyone's ever actually experimented with hit quantity hate vs. damage quantity hate. There is a noticable difference in which of the two generate hate more.

[imac2much]

Ooops I said I wouldn't post again but I just wanted to make some nitpicking comments to Clyde :p

Originally posted by ClydeArrowny
I highly doubt you could reach this number, however im not in midgersormr. Due to this I'll give you the benefit that if for some reason on this server there are only 12 people(2 full PTs) leveling at a time in yoto aside from your PT you may be able to reach this number.

It's highly possible to reach 10k xp/hour but like you said, only when there's very little competiton. In valley of sorrows at lv 59 we got 4.5k xp in 30 minutes (time of meat mithka) and in sky fighting flamingos we got 5k xp in 30 minutes. Again this was without competiton, which is very highly unlikely in a place like Yuhtunga. But fear the power of multi RNG PT

By the way, STR and DMG help determine the damage curve. Range attack does not affect the damage curve, just the fluxuations within the curve(more likely to hit closer to your max dmg more often.) How then with a higher damage curve than you was he regularly hitting for 20 damage less than you? Even if he had 20 range attack less than you, which I greatly doubt(he probably had same rng attack or 1-2 less), it wouldnt make a difference of 20 dmg per hit.

Yeah this sounds about right. Higher attack will affect the attack/defense logarithmic damage check and allow you to get more hits near the higher part of the damage curve, whereas str-vit linear damage check will raise the damage curve itself like you say. 20 more STR would increase damage by 20, but 20 more ranged attack would depend on how much higher your attack is than the monster's defense... but yeah probably not by 20 damage.

I think I'm pretty much in the same boat as Clyde. I don't underestimate THF and I know they can be potentially damaging, but I still don't think they are more damaging than a properly played RNG. THF don't suck, though.

[Caspian]

I'm on the fence about whether a THF can outdamage a RNG. I do whole-heartedly agree that thf's are greatly underestimated b/w 15-30. People see the 10 dmg they do on a normal hit at low lvls and forget that you can SA for nearly 10x that and SA+fast blade for a much higher number than that. It's been too long since I played THF to remember what my exact numbers were, but I have no doubt I was keeping up with warriors (who seem to get a lot more invites than me at those lvls".
Also, who all besides Cayne was hitting normal shots for 100+ at lvl 30 on xp mobs? My ranger is 33 now and I only usually hit for about 80 (granted this was on dahlmels, beetles and crawlers...crawlers were roughly IT+++++ to me)

One more thing thats kinda off topic, but then so has 99% of this thread so I really dont feel too bad about it.
-I got barrage at 30 and have been having some problems. Even with sharpshot engaged several times I will only hit 1 of the 4 shots and have on occasion totally missed. My first thought was to think something was wrong with me, but I saw the other ranger in my pt do the exact same thing. Does this get any better and is this at all normal or even not unheard of? I have a full set of Noct+1 gear (except for the boots which are hume rse) and a nomad mantle so I dont think its my gear...any help would be appreciated.
Thanks for your help.


EDIT: Asked a question that was already answered in another thread.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Macht
Sorry but I have to correct this, I was in a party at lv. 33 before were a PLD and THF dared me to pull hate in 1 shot after they established it. Of course they let me build up what I needed before the monster we fought tested it on. With Berserk + Meat Mithkabob and 300% TP after the THF SATAWS the PLD and the PLD voked, shield bashed, and then did sentinal. I still in that 1 Piercing Arrow shot took hate off of him.

Since you are /WAR, that usually means that you would voke to set up SATA. Provoke + Berserk + 300% TP could probably turn it (though with a good THF, unless you pulled with Barrage, you would potentially have to do 400+ damage with Piercing Arrow, which seems unlikely).

However, Cayne is /NIN, and there's no way he's going to pull hate from SATA+voke at the start of the fight with Flaming/Piercing Arrow, regardless.

[replica]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
still debating people since #capcom days..

and now~

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Do not try to sidestep into comparing NIN to RNG, who destroys every class in damage anyway.

sure, a quote on nin vs rng but you go on to say that RNG destroy every class in damage.

how did this turn from a question of RNGs power to THF vs RNG for players under 60? Does this really have to go on? RNGs are the most powerful overall and that comes at a price, period.

THF is pretty powerful as well in a DOT sense, their WS damage is also fairly high if they aren't gimped. Both of them suck vs Bones (though THF can sort of get away with mnk sub, tons of +acc gear or a club with tons of +acc gear) and both are good vs Flying mobs.

End game, vs HNM / Gods? RNG take that, too.. by far~ Again, at a price. So, what the hell is there to argue about? Everyone's arguing over such petty crap here, I'm surprised this hasn't been closed for flying way off-topic. Since it already is though, and I'm curious~ what are your levels anyways, Dan?