Are Rangers really powerful?

[imac2much]

Dan, not much to argue with, because I agree or at least understand where you're coming from on many of your points. I still stand by my view just because so far all of this is hypothetical, and I seriously would like to test it. One thing though:

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Post-30, in order for the DD to overcome THF's lead, since THF is SATAing on both the tank and DD, the DD is potentially going to run into a wall at the tank's hate generation level. This is never a factor for THF.

With /NIN I've never had to hold back much, if at all, with a good tank. I don't use WS til last part of the fight, nor barrage, and the little aggro I get is taken care of with utsusemi.

You're saying if the THF tricks onto RNG, they can't do as much damage. Well, yeah, but why would you trick on a RNG?
1) If you are in a THF+RNG PT, the RNG pulls, tanks first couple hits with utsusemi, THF SATA onto tank. When SATA comes back, might as well SATA onto one of the other jobs, since RNG is inherently getting the most aggro anyway. Unless you're in a multi-RNG PT, in which case THF isn't that useful anyway.
2) Remember the question I am trying to answer is this: if the PT had 5 people and 1 open spot, who would they want: a THF or a RNG? The entire "THF tricks onto RNG so RNG is more limited" thins is irrelevant to this IMO.

Plus Dan if you notice in my recent posts I haven't even been talking about post 30, because this is something we can prove easily in promyvion or other such level capped areas. I have mainly been speculating about 20-30 before TA even exists and before we get noct, hawker+1, sharpshot, acc up II. I never said SATAVB does 150 dmg, I have seen it do upwards of 450 dmg (although I admit this was around level 50), but even at 33-40 I have seen it do 300+ dmg. I don't underestimate SATAVB.

However, it is still my belief that even if I may be underestimating THF melee, you are likewise overestimating it. Yes it "adds up", but since THF inherently has much less ACC than RNG, it doesn't add up to much. In the case where THF and RNG are skillchaining together, the WS damage isn't much different. RNG gets TP much faster than THF and will have 200% by the time THF has 100%. At 200%, piercing arrow can do 200dmg, which is same, if not more, than SA+fast blade.

As for lvl 30 and 40, let's parse. Yes I admit I'd rather have 2 identical PT except my RNG in one and your THF in another, but this isn't exactly feasible. Thus we'd have to be in the same PT, but with another tank perhaps (2 tanks so you can get off all the SATA you desire). Promyvion lvl 3 is probably the best place, since lvl 1 and 2 are EP and T.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Cayne, based on your descriptions of the damage you expect from THF, it is no surprise at all that you do not think it possible for THF to outdamage RNG.

SA+VB will easily do more than 150 damage at LV33. I've never seen SA(+TA)+VB do less than 200 damage under any circumstance (unless the mob turned, in which case you didn't actually get SA).

Every single number you throw out for the damage you expect from THF is like, a third of what a decent THF actually does. The most bizarre part is that you reportedly have a high-level THF. Is this the type of damage you were doing?

You didn't even read what I posted.

I said lets give the LEVEL 20 THF VIPER BITE to prove the point that no matter how good the THF he wont outdamage a decent RNG... read the post again and don't twist my words around.

To refresh your memory Dan said the THF in my dunes pt was not doing enough damage to count in this argument. So I gave the THF 3 free 150 dmg SA viper bites (yes 450 FREEdmg) in addition to the damage he had already done. (I didn't take any of his damage away in exchange)

Then I replaced myself with a ranger hypothetically. Raising my accuracy to 80% and I threw all my melee damage away. Keeping this in mind the ranger in this scanareo still outdamages the THF when hitting for 60 dmg per hit which is fair since I hit for 54 with iron arrows consistantly on my SAM. (ranged attack tends to do exactly the same dmg for those who didn't know that)
I also didn't give the ranger any weapon skills which would have been another 300 dmg or so (my sam had a weapon skill for 105 with flamming arrow using iron arrows) A rng would have beetle arrows.

I think your case is not an accurate representation of damage. SA will generally do at least 2x the damage of a longbow, SATA around 3x. You guys mention doing ~100 damage per shot as a RNG before or around level 30... I wasn't even doing that with a gun (as NIN/RNG), against mandies. So I think your damage estimates for longbow are not quite accurate.

Gun doesn't really outdamage bow around level 30. and NIN/RNG would suck with a gun. A rng wouldn't have to do 100 per shot to outdamage a thf. he would only have to hit for about 50 a shotand easily land 8 shots per fight and a weapon skill. Before level 30 and a THF would only get 1 SA per fight because you will only have 1 minute between mob deaths. You gonna Sneak attack for 500 dmg? NO! does a real RNG hit for more than 50 dmg YES!

[Kuaiffxi]

I can't believe you guys are actually arguing who does the most damage from 15-50 when almost all melee are so fucking similar it doesn't really matter. You might as well call rangers "gil tossers" because until 55 we really aren't THAT much more damaging than any other melee. You should do something more useful like parse o-bow vs e-bow vs gun or something jesus

[Cat]

Please don't jump into a discussion in the middle of it without reading the posts before it.

Rather than make you go through the 12 pages of the worst argument ever (partially thanks to myself). I'll do my best to bring you up to speed.

Spider-dan claims THF can out-damage RNG from 15-45.

So far most people seem to disagree.

Its hard to argue it because my rng is too high level to parse these levels.

Dan says he parsed his THF dammge as higher than his RNG but so far we haven't seen these parses.

My best point was a scanareo really:
[This would be pre 30]

Ranger Pulls with normal ranged attack 80dmg (tp 15%)
Thief moves behind and attacks (200 dmg tp (11%) 60 sec till SA

Ranger hits with Double melee (tp 27%)
Ranger fires 5 more shots (320 dmg) (102) TP) takes 30 seconds
Theif double Melees in mean time 7 times (81 tp)

Ranger Piercing arrow 120 dmg (TP 15%)
Ragner melee immediatly after (27 TP) THF SA ready

Thief does his 2nd Sneak attack 200 dmg(91% tp) 60 sec till SA
Ranger does 3 more ranged attacks 240 dmg (72% tp) 45 till SA
Thief melees (100+ tp) mob dies.

Ranger pulls again 87% tp 80 dmg (thief has 15 sec till SA ready)
Theif moves behind and ranger tells him to wait 1 attack for TP
both melee
ranger fires 80 more dmg pases 100tp
Ranger does 120 dmg WS thf does 300 dmg SATAWS without viper bite.

Skillchain 50 dmg
Ranger fires shots for the next 60 seconds..
10 shots 800 dmg. 150% tp - 100tp for piercing arrow + 120 dmg

Thief sneak attacks for the kill 200dmg mob dies.

Total damage after 2 fights:
======================
Thief: 900 dmg
Ranger: 1890 dmg

Skillchain: 50 dmg
======================

Try to think of the paragraphs as happening about at the same time.

[ClydeArrowny]

This is what my THF used in dunes and all the way up to upper 20's (SA + combo)and 150 is beyond their threshhold vs VT/IT mabye even vs T. Especially to do it 3 times in a row and I added this to their damamge they still had 3 35 damage weaponskills (averaged) so its 185 dmg per weaponskill.

If you state it's impossible for combo to get these results than it's even more impossible for viper to get these results. At level 33 fuidama+combo does MORE damage than fuidama+viper unless youre fighting something strong to blunt or weak to piercing. At lower levels the difference in weapon skill between grapples(E) and dagger(A-) are much less noticable meaning if anything youd get better results from grapple at this level. Simply put, Viper Bite is a very bad WS, but at this level the skill ratings become more important. Viper bite is the first dagger WS that stacks with fuidama and isnt absolute crap like shadowstitch and wasp sting.

Something interesting you might wana explain why the ninja outdamages your black mage in the top one. How many fights were these parses?

A lot of people underestimate the damage dealing capacity of nin. Ni level elemental ninjitsu did 50-100 dmg per cast depending on resist and 150+ dmg in MB if I remember correctly. Nin can do a lot of damage over time with their seemingly weak but fast regular melee attacks. If you do not believe this think of mnk. As far as blm damage, personally I believe most poeple overestimate the straight damage from blm at these levels. The elemental enfeebles at this lv are a big draw to blm and help the PT a lot overall. Each parse was 1-2 full levels at 50+

[Ljarin]

How can it be total damage if you didn't even bother to include the thf's melee damage?

You also gave the rng 100% accuracy (hah) and said that that all of the rng's ws landed (hah)

That is such a biased example you really don't lend anything to your credibility posting rubbish like that.

[Cat]

Was the thief going to melee for 1000 damage? A ranger should have about 80%-90% accuracy if equiped right The THF was outdamaged by almost 1000 dmg. The ranger would need like 40% or worse accuracy to get outdamaged. Unless the ranger is less accuracte than my Sam/Rng with iron arrows the ranger will easily outdamage the thf.

Giving the THF 300 dmg weapon skills and 200 damage trick attacks is generous enough. I also didn't count the rangers melee and 80 a shot is a little low for a ranger at some pre 30 levels. THF melee dmg is insignificant as is RNG.

Also clyde combo SA doesn't hit for 185+ against IT and VT pugils on average (if ever) at level 20. Besides I added this damage in addition to the THF's existing Sneak attacks. realisticly Id have to say is 185 + the 50-70 dmg per sneak attack I traded so your looking at 235-255 dmg now on one combo. In dunes at level 20 this is pretty much impossible especially to do it 3 in a row. Furthermore the THF would have to do an additional 80 per hit to outdamage the 80% accuracy ranger I mentioned as well. So youre looking at 315-335dmg in dunes against pugils three times lmao yeah right not gonna happen buddy not at leevl 20.

[Ljarin]

A RNG in dunes isn't going to have that great r.acc because there simply isn't much r.acc gear available then so well equipped or not you are still way off the mark giving them 100% accuracy.

Besides making up figures and then adding/changing them at will because you feel like it hardly constitutes an actual log of what really happens does it.


Course I could make up figures with a thf hitting ranged attacks for as much damage as a rng (cause in dunes they will) with pretty much identical accuracy and add SA onto that and outdamage your hypothetical figures, but what would be the point. Made up numbers don't prove anything.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Ljarin
A RNG in dunes isn't going to have that great r.acc because there simply isn't much r.acc gear available then so well equipped or not you are still way off the mark giving them 100% accuracy.

Besides making up figures and then adding/changing them at will because you feel like it hardly constitutes an actual log of what really happens does it.


Course I could make up figures with a thf hitting ranged attacks for as much damage as a rng (cause in dunes they will) with pretty much identical accuracy and add SA onto that and outdamage your hypothetical figures, but what would be the point. Made up numbers don't prove anything.

The numbers aren't completely made up they are based on personal experience and they are more than fair for the THF's side of the argument with consistant 200 and 300 dmg sneak attacks before viper bite against an IT mob.

As for a ranged attacking THF I parsed my SAM/RNG in dunes at 38% ranged accuracy a THF would have similar accuracy in that area (the parse is posted you'd know that if u didn't just read 5 posts and start yelling at me). So a thf using ranged attack wouldn't work and besices we already discussed that in this thread and moved on. The argument was a non-ranged thf anyway we've made that clear several times. I was more than generous on the THF side of the scanareo with his damage so quit crying about the ranger's accuracy being too high. thats only gonna make like 200 dmg less on the RNG side.

You haven't read the whole thread. Nice of you to chyme in though. The scanareo in dunes is actually based on a log I posted earlier and then I added dmg to the THF because Dan said the thf didn't do enough dmg to count.

The other time I posted a scanareo with TP included was just pre 30 it was very general. But heres the last of gear pre-30 rangers get. I labeled the gear you dont get in dunes as well.
===================
Before level 30 RNG get
===================
Beetle arrows +5 accuracy
Ranger's Necklace +5 ranged acc
2 beetle rings +8 ranged accuracy (bone ring+1 in dunes 6 accuracy)
Sandorian Tunic +1 AGI
Nomad mantle +1 +2 AGI (not in dunes)
Leaping Boots +3 AGI
Emperor Hairpin +3 AGI (Kingdom headband +1 agi in dunes)
Martial Slacks +2 AGI (not in dunes)
Power Bow +1 +2 ranged accuracy

In dunes:
+18 ranged accuracy ( a lot more accurate than most jobs pre 20)
+5 AGI

@ level 24:
+20 Ranged Accuracy
+11 AGI

[Cat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

Gun ranger at 30-32 doesn't really do more dmg than a bow ranger
gun 70 dmg/800 delay
vs.
bow 60 dmg/600 delay

The damage is similar.

Moving on to my point though. You are admitting that with barrage the ranger is probably the higher damage dealer until viper bite.

BARRAGE IS ONLY A MAX OF 4 EXTRA SHOTS EVERY 5 MINUTES!!!

So you admit that if a thf has the lead its by less than 1 shot per minute and the rest of the difference is due to gear the only other factor which is nominal because for the most part every job gets a gear upgrade around here. In fact THF get trick at 30 if your getting outdamaged at 30-32 how are you not getting outdamaged right before that. I mean 1 shot per minute I can fix that by just not using gun at 30 and using bow which is more accurate by 7 accuracy and has a higher damage/delay ratio.

When you parsed your ranger did you have all the gear I posted in my last post at level 24??

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
Gun doesn't really outdamage bow around level 30. and NIN/RNG would suck with a gun. A rng wouldn't have to do 100 per shot to outdamage a thf.

You claim that you were doing "100 per shot" with a longbow. Pre-30, gun+bullet is D66, longbow+arrow is D48. If I'm not doing 100 damage with my gun, there is no way in hell you are doing 100 damage per shot with a D18 handicap. And again, NIN/RNG's skillcap using gun is a whopping 6-7 points behind RNG pre-30. Please don't act like NIN/RNG's gun is firing blanks.

[Tokitoki]

I can do a parse tomorrow on the damage i do with my Great Bow +1/ Silver Arrows vs a Pirate Gun/Bullets in a PT tomorrow if that helps to prove anything. Just got my RNG to 30 so we can test it well.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
You're saying if the THF tricks onto RNG, they can't do as much damage. Well, yeah, but why would you trick on a RNG?

In a standard party setup (3 melee, 3 mage), if the mob is facing the tank, who else can you trick on?

1) If you are in a THF+RNG PT, the RNG pulls, tanks first couple hits with utsusemi, THF SATA onto tank. When SATA comes back, might as well SATA onto one of the other jobs, since RNG is inherently getting the most aggro anyway.

As I said, there normally is no other job to trick on, except one of the mages. Tricking on mages isn't exactly feasible (and most mages wouldn't agree to it, no matter how efficient it might be).

2) Remember the question I am trying to answer is this: if the PT had 5 people and 1 open spot, who would they want: a THF or a RNG? The entire "THF tricks onto RNG so RNG is more limited" thins is irrelevant to this IMO.

This isn't even the point. I only said that I thought that THF does more damage than RNG in a specific level range, not that they are more useful. Simply doing the most damage doesn't necessarily make you the most wanted.

The entire tangent on THF tricking on RNG was mentioned solely to explain how THF can do more damage (since you specifically requested an explanation). THF is never limited by hate, while RNG can be.

As for lvl 30 and 40, let's parse. Yes I admit I'd rather have 2 identical PT except my RNG in one and your THF in another, but this isn't exactly feasible. Thus we'd have to be in the same PT, but with another tank perhaps (2 tanks so you can get off all the SATA you desire). Promyvion lvl 3 is probably the best place, since lvl 1 and 2 are EP and T.

I don't think a 4 melee party is an accurate representation. Like I said, all my points assume the standard 3/3 setup. If and when we do parse, it should be the 40 cap zone anyway. As I pointed out, LV30 is RNG's best level (in terms of upgrades) until LV50. They get new main weapon, lots of new accuracy gear, anotehr accuracy trait, Barrage, etc. If RNG can outdamage THF at any point from 15-45, 30-32 is definitely their best shot to do it.

However, seeing the number of people who don't think THF even has a chance in this comparison, I'd prefer to do 40 first. It's better to parse an example with THF having their best opportunity to compete, so we can at least get all of this "there's no possible way THF can even come close!" naysaying out of the way. (LV35-39 would probably be the range where THF has the biggest advantage, but I don't know of a 35 cap area.)

[Cat]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cat
Gun doesn't really outdamage bow around level 30. and NIN/RNG would suck with a gun. A rng wouldn't have to do 100 per shot to outdamage a thf.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You claim that you were doing "100 per shot" with a longbow. Pre-30, gun+bullet is D66, longbow+arrow is D48. If I'm not doing 100 damage with my gun, there is no way in hell you are doing 100 damage per shot with a D18 handicap. And again, NIN/RNG's skillcap using gun is a whopping 6-7 points behind RNG pre-30. Please don't act like NIN/RNG's gun is firing blanks.

I'm not even going to respond when you make me repeat myself Ill just do this.

Originally posted by Cat
Gun ranger at 30-32 doesn't really do more dmg than a bow ranger
gun 70 dmg/800 delay
vs.
bow 60 dmg/600 delay

The damage is similar.

If you want we can discuss this in chat seems like fun on AIM if you want to discuss this for a half hour or so post your SN and sometime tonight we can do that.

My AIM: Asics777

Then we can all mosey down to emptyness and parse. I'd be more than happy to not use barrage and not wear level 30 gear to test the pre 30 theory.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
Gun ranger at 30-32 doesn't really do more dmg than a bow ranger
gun 70 dmg/800 delay
vs.
bow 60 dmg/600 delay

The damage is similar.

I hope you aren't using damage/delay ratio as your logic for that. Higher damage weapons > lower damage weapons, almost universally. More damage penetrates per hit.

Moving on to my point though. You are admitting that with barrage the ranger is probably the higher damage dealer until viper bite.

BARRAGE IS ONLY A MAX OF 4 EXTRA SHOTS EVERY 5 MINUTES!!!

THAT'S UP TO 300 DAMAGE THEY WOULDN'T OTHERWISE HAVE!!! AND ALSO ~60% TP!!!

If THF had a free "Viper Bite" job ability with 5 min recast, that also gave back 50%+ TP, you don't think it would make a difference?

So you admit that if a thf has the lead its by less than 1 shot per minute and the rest of the difference is due to gear the only other factor which is nominal because for the most part every job gets a gear upgrade around here. In fact THF get trick at 30 if your getting outdamaged at 30-32 how are you not getting outdamaged right before that. I mean 1 shot per minute I can fix that by just not using gun at 30 and using bow which is more accurate by 7 accuracy and has a higher damage/delay ratio.

Daggers have better damage/delay ratio than guns, almost across the board (without even including SA). Yet we don't see HNM parties dropping Hellfire RNGs for dual dagger THFs.

Damage/delay ratio is essentially a meaningless stat.

When you parsed your ranger did you have all the gear I posted in my last post at level 24??

With the exception of VE pin, LL boots, and the +1 Nomad's, who doesn't? The rest of that stuff is dirt cheap and readily available. Practically all RNGs had it.

Even if you had VE and LL, seeing as how you are Elvaan and I'm Mithra, I still had a 2 AGI advantage over you in net accuracy. (I was wearing AGI+1 head and feet with normal Nomad's, but I have 7 more base AGI than you at LV24.) And I know my accuracy was nowhere near 80% in dunes and Qufim.