Are Rangers really powerful?

[imac2much]

The thing is there are so many variables in one single PT setting that parsers will inherently have some margin of error. How large was his measuring size, and was the exact same setting existent for the entire measuring size of both tests? It's not enough if he only xp'ed for 1 hr for each test, or maybe they xp'ed on several different types of monsters... there are just too many variables.

Apple Pie's method uses the actual mathematical formula which can be reverse engineered from the TP formula: all the variables are accounted for and thus there is very little margin for error.

I think the best method would be for you (or some other RNG since you are 75 now Cayne) to parse 2 PT settings yourself. I might try this perhaps... what I mean is, in the same PT (so that the setting is the same), use sarashi for 2 hours, stop gathering, then start a new parse file and repeat for another 2 hours with life belt or rkbelt+2 or whatever. Life belt would probably be best for this test, since the NA parser only shows damage and whatnot, thus the benefit of damage from sarashi (haste) and rkbelt+2 (more str and rng atk) would be displayed similarly... whereas life belt only has more acc.

I plan to do 2 such parsings with gun vs e-bow soon; after that I'll buy a sarashi and try something like this I guess... but probably only after I hit 63.

[Cat]

The link explains the varriables in his parsings. He did multiple sets of 10 fights. And everytime sarashi came out ahead. Unless he purposly tried to flaw his test it should be fairly accurate but nonetheless if you parse sarashi and find results that show otherwise please give me a /tell rugal cuz the information would be useful to me. I think Ill try it myself sometime when I get bored.

[Jaggywaggy]

Pre-30, no matter how much money you have, there is simply no way to significantly increase your accuracy over most other RNGs.

Noct doublet+1 adds 3 more at 30, for elvaan the RSE boots are a well priced alternative to leaping boots and Bastokan greaves add a +4 Ranged accuracy bonus when your party is going to an area under your countries influence lv(33 or so) and some agility, a pair of horn rings +1 adds 10 ranged accuracy those are mid 30s as well, Noct gloves+1 add 2 more

Republic Cuisses add 2 AGI and a +7 ranged attack / attack bonus in your nations areas (again your getting them for the AGI but this extra effect is nice to have)

also Genin earring adds 4 AGI if u sub ninja and drone earring adds 3 AGI. You can easily have close to +50 ranged accuracy if 2 AGI = 1 accuracy. I used dual hawker+1 after 30 but most rangers are more than content with normal hawkers. I aslo use a sarashi belt at 30 which increases your melee attack speed if your a ninja quite a bit

Well way to counter his statement of limited pre 30 rng acc equips with several level 30 or later examples, /clap. Not to say I have acc troubles, but the rng acc equips double at 28, and then goes up another 10-20 again in the 30s easily not counting job trait acc bonus II. My main is thief so i have hairpin,LL on me already to use on my rng.

My ranger is 27, but between rng acc+14-19, and agi+9 after mithkabob, I still have my noticable share of misses. I don't parse but I suppose 75% hit rate on inc-tough mandies without sharpshot up, roughly. I like fang arrows, but I prefer silver arrows when sharpshot is up. I do expect to notice much improvement at 28 though with dual archer knives. Also the difference between mithra and hume agi at this lvl isn't big enough to mention anyway because...

Hairpin and Leaping boots are hardly exceptional gear combined they add = to 3 ranged accuracy

So obviously a 3 or so agi advantage at this lvl given to the mithran race isn't going to amount to anything right? So the race advantage is not worth bringing up if LL and hairpin weren't worth mentioning as helpful.

However after playing it thus far, I would agree in the statement that rng is the most accurate class given they don't gimp on anything major like +1 rings,+1 bow,+5 acc arrows,etc. Definitely noticablely more accurate than other jobs of the same lvl when those jobs are without bard. Hunter's prelude isn't until 31, another point in the 30s, yet not before 30,they get another bonus.

Lastly for melee damage, at my lvl the battles last long enough for me to get 2-3 swings in, and I suppose it's worth mentioning. 10-20 depending on the mob's lvl and if acid bolts were used. With +11 dex(extras from LL,hairpin,hume hands RSE,short sword until 28) and -6 acc from the rings though, it hits 50% about. My sword skill is capped from thief using sword pre 33.

[imac2much]

Cayne, I'll do what I can but I have to hit 63 first... and as you know I don't xp much anymore :p

Jaggy a lot of points and counterpoints were thrown around in this debate, and I think a lot of it was misdirected or just misread. But this is the main point of that debate: Can THF without ranged attacks be more damaging than RNG at *any* level?

I honestly don't think so. RNG just has too many items and traits that boost our accuracy that a THF *without* ranged attacks don't have (not much to boost accuracy at low levells). This is the bottom line.

In some of the other posts I and some other people discussed how THF can be pretty damaging and powerful at low levels with certain strategies and equipment, but without ranged attacks I don't see any chance at all.

As I've said countless times, I don't have any solid parsings or proof to back this up, but it just seems like common sense to me. If anyone can provide some counterevidence, I would be much obliged. Even if RNG doesn't have a ton of +RNG ACC til after 30, we still have a lot more +RNG ACC than any other melee has of +melee ACC. Not only that, but our DoT is stronger as well.

[Jaggywaggy]

If you want to know what I think of thf vs rng it's this.

Rng will outdamage thf when properly equipped, end of story. But it's quite close 30-50 for rngs with silver bullets, and 30-54 for rng's with bows. When battles are short like they're suppose to be, SC + big MB, it gives damage burst jobs more importence than in long drawn out battles. Even in short battles I think a rng is still going to be dealing more damage. But in these properly done quick fights, a thf's huge damage burst is going to make it a top contender for certain lvls.

Anyone who'd deny the power of the rng + thf combo is most likely a stubbern idiot though. Thf allows ranger to not hold back if he does his job right. Rng allows thf to deal more damage with a bigger SC and be more useful by helping to shorten the fight which is burst damage jobs domain. The people of these jobs shouldn't be putting the other down. Of course though there are people here" I do more damage, therefore you're useless", not directed to you imac, I like how you present your arguements.

<Slug Shot> + SATA<Viper Bite> (or insert future improved WS)
+ <Distortion> <Skillchain>+<Freeze>= easy 200-300 xp <Yes Please!>

But again for those that don't always read whole posts. I definitely feel rng is the best all out damage dealer. Unless you wanted to mention a blm that spammed his most powerful nukes and got himself killed, or mnk vs bones 60+.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
The moment after you fire the weapon and begin to put the weapon away both timers are running. If they weren't then rangers would not melee at all during the entire fight if they spam the ranged attack macro.

The reason why this happens is that you cannot hit Ctrl+D on the first frame you are eligible to attack (human timing + lag). Therefore, the better you time it, the less melee attacks you will do. But the timers do not run concurrently. See my response to imac for more proof.

It's really starting to be clear why your RNG didn't reach his potential if you didn't melee with ur ranger it seriously drops your damage output.

I don't melee as much because I'm busy firing ranged.

In regards to Ranger Accuracy under level 15: The went ahead and parsed the rng in my dunes when I was exping SAM/RNG today after 30 fights he had 83% accuracy at level 15 against Damselflies and Snippers.

I would like to see this log.

SAM/RNG can't use Ranger's Necklace, there are no RACC rings at LV15, and you don't get /RNG Accuracy Bonus until 20SAM/10RNG. What exactly were you wearing?

If you got 83% accuracy as 15SAM/RNG, then that would just prove that RNG has no advantage at all. Anyone would be able to have god accuracy.

And as already pointed out, none of the gear advantages that you cited are pre-30. VE pin and LL boots are the only things that not every RNG has, and you even dismiss those as trivial. So why was your accuracy so much better than everyone else's, who complained about pre-30 accuracy?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
Er yeah, this is incorrect information. Just like any good RNG, I spam CTRL+D and still melee. This is extremely easy to prove... go to a monster, just keep spamming ctrl+d as fast as you can, and guess, what, you'll still end up meleeing. That's free damage and TP right there.

As I said to Cayne, this only happens because you can't hit Ctrl+D on first frame every time, so some time elapses between shots, even if you "spam" ranged. The more that this happens, the lower your DPS goes.

Edit: This is my theory on how the ranged + melee delays work (pure speculation based on my experiences) Ranged weapons have their own delay, while ammo have another delay. I think that the ranged weapon delay affects how long the actual firing animation takes. However, the ammo delay affects the time between putting your bow/gun/xbow away and then being able to shoot again. During this ammo delay, your melee weapon delay counter is going on as well.

This is provably incorrect.

Bullets have 240 delay. If your theory were correct, every two times I shot my gun, I would get a guaranteed round of DW dagger melee. I can shoot a gun many more times than that in a row without meleeing.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
If you got 83% accuracy as 15SAM/RNG, then that would just prove that RNG has no advantage at all. Anyone would be able to have god accuracy.

Um I think he's saying he was XPing a low level job (SAM/RNG) nd the RNG in his party had 83% accuracy.

But honestly once again, Dan you have no solid proof that your theory about melee swinging is correct, it is just speculation just like I admitted mine was. Stop stating everything as if every single thing you say is absolute fact.

I admitted my theory was just that: theory, and looking back on that, you're probably right that it doesn't work with the numbers. However, i don't see how you are so sure of your theory...

Look at it this way. Currently I'm using Hawker + Hawker+1 = 285 delay. With DW2 = 285 * 0.85 = 242.25 = 242. Since 60 delay = 1 second , that delay is 4 seconds.

Now, today I tested (over and over and over) how many shots I could get off between dagger swings if I spammed ranged as hard as I could... it was 3 shots of e-bow. Now you are saying somehow I am letting 1.3 seconds elapse somehow per shot even though I am spamming ctrl+D... I don't see how this is possible.

Realize I admitted my theory was just speculation... I believe what you state as fact is just speculation as well, and I think your speculation is at least partly incorrect.

I think that time duration between when you put your weapon away and when you're allowed to shoot again continues to tick away on the melee delay counter. You're right that it's not dependent on ammo delay (at least directly) since bullet is 240, but I find it hard to believe that I'm 'lagging' or something 1.5 seconds per every shot. On the other hand it does seem that I have to wait around 1-2 seconds before I can shoot again, at least with e-bow. In this case, RNG will still get TP faster than others since we seem to have 2 different delay counters running still.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
But honestly once again, Dan you have no solid proof that your theory about melee swinging is correct, it is just speculation just like I admitted mine was. Stop stating everything as if every single thing you say is absolute fact.

If you've got counterevidence (or a better theory), you can state it at any time.

I go with the most accurate explanation available. If someone provides a better one, then I'll switch. Concurrent timers during ammo delay certainly isn't it. Guns would have a ridiculous advantage if this were the case.

I think that time duration between when you put your weapon away and when you're allowed to shoot again continues to tick away on the melee delay counter.

This is what I just disproved. Ammo delay is the time between when you put your weapon away and when you are allowed to shoot again (dumbed down).

I suggest you try your test with a gun, or crossbow + sleep bolts. The short explanation for why is due to archery's somewhat random and nonsensical repeat firing behavior. Archery's delay is simply not logical. I can cite examples if you really think it necessary, but the easier (and vastly more relevant) solution is to try your test with Marksmanship.

[Cat]

I 'was on my SAM/RNG partying with a ranger. Sorry If that confused you. As for the pre 30 thing yeah I did misread that. However his original claim was 15-45 so all that gear is applicable towards that. I didn't know he changed it to 15-30... its really a dumb debate you can get from 15-30 in 2 days anyway why would you buy all the best gear. I as in dunes today though and the thf were SA pugils for LESS damage than the rangers normal Ranged attack lol sneak attack for 50-70 ranged attack for 65 every hit from a taru no less. Not to mention the thf wasn't always able to get 2 sneak attacks off. Just some things I observed today while leveling my sam in dunes.

I attached what was on my log when I exited today. Because we had a THF there and I was on my SAM/RNG with HORRIBLE accuracy no accuracy bonus because i was level 19/9. Sorry its only 6 fights like I said I just parsed what was in the log when I exited and read this.

Cayne [19/9 SAM/RNG] - Awww thats me at the top of the DMG list
Jslug [20/10 THF/WAR] - He was also pulling thats why he has 105 ranged damage
Zando [20/? PLD/WAR] - Main tank
Chaoticid [20/? RDM/???]
Cleric [19/9 WHM/???] - healer i think he had no SJ
Jaythus - [19/9 SMN/WHM] - I filtered carbuncle sorry

Low sample size (only 6 fights) still worth looking at... and a RNG would easily outdamage me..
MY GEAR durring this parse:
Uchigatana (lev 12 great katana)
alchemists apron (lol yea i know)
Iron Arrows (from the selbina store, thats right not the beetle arrows I wish I had with more damage and accuracy)
Power Bow+1
Leaping Boots
Vagabond's Hose
pumpkin head
San d'Orian Gloves
Bone ring+1
Bone ring+1

Nothing too exceptional I have horrid ranged accuracy, no food effect on me but the thf was using meat jerky.

I will give you this it was only our last 6 fights. But the stats are detrimental to the THF side of the argument. I would be more than happy to parse this more thurougly with a real ranger as you can see I have horrid accuracy with a bow a ranger would have an additional accuracy bonus and rangers necklace and some other nice items to assist him and would out damage me easily.

Also I would like to point out that I got 25 melee attacks off in 6 fights while spamming the ranged attack macro as fast as possible (and 35 ranged attacks) with a slow Great Katana... give me a break theres no way I could average almost 5 attacks per fight wih a weapon that slow unless sometimes both timers ran simotaneously. The THF never missed a single sneak attack in this parse. Durring the chain (was 1 chain 5 i believe) he was only able to pull off 8 sneak attacks though. Most these mobs died in well under 60 seconds including the pull and this speed is pretty standard for all exp partys at all levels post 15 for me at least.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
If you've got counterevidence (or a better theory), you can state it at any time.

Er.... once again, why do I need a better theory just to prove your theory wrong? I already stated counterevidence if you'd just read. You are saying that there is 1.5 seconds of lag PER SHOT by spamming ctrl+D. That is ridiculous.

I go with the most accurate explanation available. If someone provides a better one, then I'll switch. Concurrent timers during ammo delay certainly isn't it. Guns would have a ridiculous advantage if this were the case.

Did you even read my post man? I admitted that the arrow delay thing is probably wrong, but that there is still a fixed duration after you put your weapon away but before you can shoot again where melee timer is set off; it may not be due to ammo delay but it seems to be there, unless you are saying I have 1.5 seconds of lag PER SHOT by spamming ctrl+D.

My theory may be wrong but it was just that, a theory. I see no reason to think that your words are anything other than theory either, especially since there IS counterevidence towards it.

Besides, why are we going on this tangent anyway? Your entire claim is that THF is most damaging melee from 15-45 *WITHOUT* ranged attacks. I don't think ANYONE would agree with this. You had some supporters at first (including me) assuming the THF would be spamming ranged attacks (although I now think that would only be outdamaging compared to a RNG from 28-29 or so), but if you are claiming a THF is most damaging melee from 15-45 WITHOUT ranged attacks, you most likely have no supporters. This was your original claim, please provide some backup, proof, examples, reasons, etc.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I wasn't the one talking about THF/RNG; if you want max damage from THF in the low 30s, you should probably sub WAR, though I was using /NIN myself. Ranged attacks from THF are too inconsistent to rely on for damage, though in hindsight if I had Acid Bolts available to THF back then, it would have helped damage output even more.

To think a THF without ranged attacks can be the most damaging DD in the game is ridiculous unless you have some solid proof. They have less accuracy, daggers are one of the weakest weapons in the game (compared to ranged which are the strongest... I'm not talking about damage/delay ratios, you're smart enough to know that's not how to decide what weapons are strong)... the only 'big' damage THF does is SATA or SATAVB and with their crappy ACC they can only get one off per fight at the rate RNG kill things, while the RNG may even get enough TP for 2 piercing/flaming arrows.

[Aiarin]

Er

I'd just like to say that if you mash a macro, you will rarely, if ever get your ability off as soon as possible.

This is easy to test with black magic, because the time at which you can cast another spell is easily found. If you hit your macro a fraction of a second early, it'll typically take at least another second before your next, successful command, will go through.

[poweryoga]

here we go again. :spin: :spin: :spin: :spin:

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Aiarin
Er

I'd just like to say that if you mash a macro, you will rarely, if ever get your ability off as soon as possible.

This is easy to test with black magic, because the time at which you can cast another spell is easily found. If you hit your macro a fraction of a second early, it'll typically take at least another second before your next, successful command, will go through.

This is a good point that I forgot to consider. You're right that even when "spamming", we are not literally sending 100+ commands a second.

However, I think that you are sending many more than just 1 command a second. For ranged this is simple to prove: after you put your bow away, just mash away at ctrl+d. You will get several error messages (saying you can't shoot yet or that the action is not available or something... I forget exactly). Admittedly. you do not get one for every ctrl+D you perform; however, it seems to me that I get more than 1 message a second for this. For melee and ranged delays not to be concurrent, there needs to be 1.5 second lag for each shot; i.e. you only get the message every 1.5 second.

I don't have a timer, so I may very likely be wrong here.. it just seems to me I get more error msges than 1/second. Maybe not though.

But even if both delay timers aren't concurrent, how are THF more damaging than RNG from 15-45?

[Cat]

Er

I'd just like to say that if you mash a macro, you will rarely, if ever get your ability off as soon as possible.

This is easy to test with black magic, because the time at which you can cast another spell is easily found. If you hit your macro a fraction of a second early, it'll typically take at least another second before your next, successful command, will go through.

25 melee attacks to 32 ranged attacks on the parse I posted.

Thats quit a considerable amount of melee attacks between shots in only 6 fights.

But even if both delay timers aren't concurrent, how are THF more damaging than RNG from 15-45?.

Rugal they would much rather focus on theories and things than post parses screen shots or video to prove their point. After all its hard to get parses when you sit in forums all day...

Just to rugal: A THF/RNG wont get the accuracy bonus until level 20 and until then they will have accuracy like my ranged accuracy in my parse. I did a lot of damage but a thf wouldn't melee as hard as me and a gun would have more delay than my bow more than likely the thf would just be throwing thier ammo away 60% of the time.