Are Rangers really powerful?

[imac2much]

I understand your point greysenn, but it's not like THF is doing 50 dmg a swing with a dagger. And seriously, like I said, I have never seen a THF consistently get aggro just swinging his dagger and using SA, while RNG do consistently get aggro spamming ctrl+D.

I could be wrong, but although THF melee is not nonexistent... it's not exactly strong either.

[Aiarin]

Cat: Not much to say. If you say I partied with bad rangers, well, then, I partied with bad rangers. Part of my point, was, as I said, that it's easier to be a good thief than a good ranger. There's a lot more HQ equipment out there that makes a big difference for Rangers. As for the accuracy, you're right, I don't know through direct experience. I have however, played Ranger to 10 (Before I quit in February), and have been told that regardless of the necklace and items, you'll still be having accuracy problems up to at least Lv. 30, where you get the (Second?) passive accuracy boost (Which helps more than Archers knives, supposedly).

I do have to question your syaing that they're the "most accurate" job, since many Rangers sub Ninja for Dual Archers/Hawkers (And Utsusemi)-- and I don't think it's just for Sidewinder (Though that would be a good enough reason). But what do I know?

Jaggy: If you're going to call a Ranger without Leaping boots "Gimp" you have to say the same for Thieves, and frankly, Thieves get way more out of Leaping Boots and Emperor's Hairpin than a Ranger does. The numbers you posted aren't a whole lot higher than mine, and accept that it's probably an equipment difference-- but I also suggest that an equally "pimped out" Thief could do even more damage than the numbers I gave for Thief. As I said I was suggesting that an "Average" of each class would be more beneficial to the Thief (Since it's not a difficult/expensive job)

Imac2much: I know you're not responding to me, but if you'll read my post, you'll see that I mentioned that pretty much every single time I used SA from 23-30, I pulled hate. If I only use one, it's only for a short time, but if I double it, I'm tanking. I do expect it to change around 30, but mainly with the accuracy bonus. Barrage is, as I've said, a five minute ability, and even assuming a thief only gets four SATAs in during five minutes, it doesn't compare. It only helps boost the Ranger's DoT, which is still going to be dependant on equipment. Since Ranger is doing DoT though, as has been mentioned, Thief will win in short fights where they can double up SATA and maybe end it with a Third. It's also hard to count the Noct set as a bonus to Rangers, since it benefits Thieves as much, if not more. If the Thief is using Ranged, as you suggest they should if they want to compare to a ranger, then the Noct is 100% better for a Thief (Ranger has no use for the +4 total Dex)

I'm done here now. It's not my intention to start an argument, just keep in mind that until Level 30, the only thing a Thief can bring to the table is damage, and they're not bad at it either.

[Narru]

Eeek, I can already see the pitchforks and mobs coming out with the "Thief Hater" labels already...

But I'm going to go out and say this: Thief regular melee damage is negligible. Moreso after 33 when most switch over to daggers.

At the highest levels (65+), with a lot of haste and duel wield bonuses, it might be different, but that's my view.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Aiarin
Imac2much: I know you're not responding to me, but if you'll read my post, you'll see that I mentioned that pretty much every single time I used SA from 23-30, I pulled hate. If I only use one, it's only for a short time, but if I double it, I'm tanking. I do expect it to change around 30, but mainly with the accuracy bonus. Barrage is, as I've said, a five minute ability, and even assuming a thief only gets four SATAs in during five minutes, it doesn't compare. It only helps boost the Ranger's DoT, which is still going to be dependant on equipment. Since Ranger is doing DoT though, as has been mentioned, Thief will win in short fights where they can double up SATA and maybe end it with a Third. It's also hard to count the Noct set as a bonus to Rangers, since it benefits Thieves as much, if not more. If the Thief is using Ranged, as you suggest they should if they want to compare to a ranger, then the Noct is 100% better for a Thief (Ranger has no use for the +4 total Dex.

Aiarin, I already acknowledged that a properly played THF with ranged attacks will be just as good as a RNG at certain levels. I was responding to Dan because he said he DOESN'T use ranged attacks, but that THF still outdamages RNG. I don't see how this is possible.

Even in short fights, if a THF is just purely using dagger, how is he doing more damage than RNG, unless you're fighting T or VT or something?

If your THF used ranged attacks, then I admit that you might be more powerful at those levels, I just can't test it right now. But to say a THF with just pure dagger is more powerful than a RNG in an overall PT parsing is stretching the imagination.

[Aiarin]

Originally posted by imac2much
I understand your point greysenn, but it's not like THF is doing 50 dmg a swing with a dagger. And seriously, like I said, I have never seen a THF consistently get aggro just swinging his dagger and using SA, while RNG do consistently get aggro spamming ctrl+D.

I was mainly responding to this, because I did and do get hate with only daggers. I'm not saying I get hate from the best Rangers (Though I did grab hate much more often than the ones I Partied with)

The part about Noct being better for Thief than Ranger is mostly me being a Devil's Advocate, since you mentioned it as boost rangers get.

[imac2much]

Gotcha Aia. However if you look at my previous post where I speak about RNG vs THF using ranged, I note that noct+1 benefits both jobs so I didn't consider it. I only mentioned it in my latest post because it was RNG vs THF not using ranged... you get my drift

[Cat]

I have however, played Ranger to 10 (Before I quit in February), and have been told that regardless of the necklace and items, you'll still be having accuracy problems up to at least Lv. 30,

I never in 75 levels of ranger had accuracy problems... the lowest I can remember parsing with more than 30 fights was 80%+ however when I was in low level parties they remarked oh finally a ranger who doesn't miss all the time... and things of that nature so it must be a matter of equipping yourself well because elvaan agility is the lowest in the game.

[Cat]

At pre 30 levels I see a lot of dagger melee for 10-20 dmg and if u dual weild daggers your delay goes up around 400 which isn't much faster than a bow which should sit around 550 so approx 1.5 sec slower also Rangers melee with daggers between ranged attacks and the two timers are somewhat separate (meaning part of the time raged and melee attacks are waming up simotaneously) rangers have a decent dagger rating as well. So this pretty much negates the thf dagger melee as a factor in catching rangers in damage. Also a ranger can use axes before 30 if they wana take the damage up a notch.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
I never in 75 levels of ranger had accuracy problems... the lowest I can remember parsing with more than 30 fights was 80%+ however when I was in low level parties they remarked oh finally a ranger who doesn't miss all the time... and things of that nature so it must be a matter of equipping yourself well because elvaan agility is the lowest in the game.

Pre-30, no matter how much money you have, there is simply no way to significantly increase your accuracy over most other RNGs.

The only exceptional things you can really buy are LL boots and VE pin. Everything else (+1 rings, RACC arrows, +1 bow, etc.) is standard RNG equipment, which basically everyone has. There are countless threads with people complaining about early level accuracy as RNG, and the general consensus has been that RNG's accuracy advantage doesn't really manifest itself until 30 (or possibly 28 if you sub NIN).

Oh, and ranged attack pauses your melee autoattack timer, so if you are using axes (for example) then you are wasting time that could be used to fire your higher accuracy, higher damage bow. This would lower your DPS, not raise it.

[Cat]

Oh, and ranged attack pauses your melee auto attack timer, so if you are using axes (for example) then you are wasting time that could be used to fire your higher accuracy, higher damage bow. This would lower your DPS, not raise it.

In regards to the quote above: Wait you're saying that holding high damage melee weapon will lower your DPS on a ranger. The moment after you fire the weapon and begin to put the weapon away both timers are running. If they weren't then rangers would not melee at all during the entire fight if they spam the ranged attack macro. I checked the parses I posted earlier and more than 5% of my damage comes from my melee and I spam ranged attack just like any other ranger. I still manage about 8 melee attacks per fight depending how long the mob lasts, so it’s enough to add to your DPS and more importantly it’s about 25-35 TP per fight so that will also add to your DPS. In fact this and their high ranged accuracy is the main reason rangers get TP so fast.

It's really starting to be clear why your RNG didn't reach his potential if you didn't melee with ur ranger it seriously drops your damage output.

In regards to Ranger Accuracy under level 15: The went ahead and parsed the rng in my dunes when I was exping SAM/RNG today after 30 fights he had 83% accuracy at level 15 against Damselflies and Snippers. So to say rangers have accuracy problems is ridiculous when a thief's melee at that level will be just above 60% or at least the 15 THF in my party was at 64% and equipped well enough.

In regards to ranger gear not giving you an edge: Hairpin and Leaping boots are hardly exceptional gear combined they add = to 3 ranged accuracy I could find better things to buy with 700-900k that they cost. The fact is many rangers use things like silver arrows that don’t add to ranged accuracy the arrows with +5 ranged accuracy are a lot better choice even though they may have a lower damage stat they also hit more often and have lower delay. Noct doublet+1 adds 3 more at 30, for elvaan the RSE boots are a well priced alternative to leaping boots and Bastokan greaves add a +4 Ranged accuracy bonus when your party is going to an area under your countries influence lv(33 or so) and some agility, a pair of horn rings +1 adds 10 ranged accuracy those are mid 30s as well, Noct gloves+1 add 2 more, I do recommend Emperor Hairpin at lower levels because it helps with Utsusemi and adds very small amount of ranged accuracy but it should be at the bottom of your list if you are on a tight budget. Republic Cuisses add 2 AGI and a +7 ranged attack / attack bonus in your nations areas (again your getting them for the AGI but this extra effect is nice to have), also rangers necklace 5 more accuracy you are looking at pretty good numbers with AGI bonus, also Genin earring adds 4 AGI if u sub ninja and drone earring adds 3 AGI. You can easily have close to +50 ranged accuracy if 2 AGI = 1 accuracy. I used dual hawker+1 after 30 but most rangers are more than content with normal hawkers. I aslo use a sarashi belt at 30 which increases your melee attack speed if your a ninja quite a bit this means more damage and more TP. The +1 add 12 ranged accuracy and 3 AGI and you can have 2 so If we do the math its pretty hard to argue that having better gear wont give you an edge.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Oh, and ranged attack pauses your melee autoattack timer, so if you are using axes (for example) then you are wasting time that could be used to fire your higher accuracy, higher damage bow. This would lower your DPS, not raise it.

Er yeah, this is incorrect information. Just like any good RNG, I spam CTRL+D and still melee. This is extremely easy to prove... go to a monster, just keep spamming ctrl+d as fast as you can, and guess, what, you'll still end up meleeing. That's free damage and TP right there.

Dan, pre-30 even though we don't have that much rng acc gear, our ranged acc is still higher than other melee due to +rng acc from rng necklace, bow+1, the right arrows, basic rings, job trait, and all the extra agi we have. There's barely any +melee acc equipment at that level.

BTW Cayne, sarashi doesn't do squat :sweat: It only adds 1% DW haste as opposed to 5% from suppanomi, NIN AF, and NIN job traits.... Hehe don't know if 1% is going to help you much.

Edit: This is my theory on how the ranged + melee delays work (pure speculation based on my experiences) Ranged weapons have their own delay, while ammo have another delay. I think that the ranged weapon delay affects how long the actual firing animation takes. However, the ammo delay affects the time between putting your bow/gun/xbow away and then being able to shoot again. During this ammo delay, your melee weapon delay counter is going on as well. This is why you will still hit with your melee weapon even though you spam ranged attacks as much as possible. Noting the long ammo delay on bullets, this means that gun users have more added benefits from melee attacks than bow users. What do you guys think?

[Cat]

As far as your theory goes rugal that may be the case however I am not 100% sure. A good way to test it is to get a melee weapon with less delay then your bullets. In theory you should melee after every shot. Also, where do you get this information about sarashi only adding 1% to DW cuz this is the first time I've heard that.

Here is a good forum about sarashi though and some parsings it seems pretty effective to me.

http://vnboards.ign.com/The_Warrior/b22545/72874377/?2

I do notice a faster melee when using saraashi id have to guesss it adds DW+1.

[imac2much]

Well, I try to get most of my information from JP forums, such as ones that Apple Pie (Grendal) has been kind enough to link to me... I'm not saying the Japanese are better players than us, but as a whole their communities are much more critical and comprehensive (some would call them anal, but I call them thorough) than NA communities. I have never seen any NA forum that has the amount of testing and information as 2ch and other such forums. But since my japanese is still very limited, I sometimes rely on kind people like Apple Pie relaying information. Here is one thread where he talks about sarashi:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...i&pagenumber=2

The relevant passage:

Originally posted by Apple Pie
As you know, DA of Joyeuse isn't always triggered although it frequently (= 50%, the same as Ridill) activates. Without Haste, you can only swing it [(4,500 / 224) x 1.5] = 30 times and even with Haste, you can do it [{(4,500 / 224) x 1.5} x 1.25] = 37.5 = 37 times.

Suppose you sub NIN and have Joyeuse, Hornet Needle, Sarashi (-1% delay of DW), and Suppanomimi (-5% delay of DW).

Note: Do not buy Sarashi. It's useless lol

Weapon Delay
(150 + 226) x 0.79 (due to Sarashi and Suppanomimi) = 297.04

Chance to swing with Haste
[{(4,500 / 297.04) x 1.25} x 2] = 37.8 = 38 times.
Adding DA of Joyeuse, it is 38 + {(38 / 2) x 0.5} = 47 times.

I'm not sure if he got this from the Japanese guide (it has a ton of technical information, such as how much accuracy/attack/defense all those passive job traits add, etc) or from testing forums, but I've never seen Apple Pie intentionally post false information.

[Apple Pie]

Rugal, here's how they find Sarashi only enhances 1% of DW.

http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Stingray/20041008 Look at the one at 11:55

It was found at our THF thread but I cannot find the old log. That website above wrote the summary and it should be enough to prove it.

Basically, TP we earn is determined by weapon delay.

Delay 0 - 180: 5.0
Delay 180 - 480: ((Delay - 180) / 256) * 6 + 5
Delay 480 - 900: (Delay + 480) / 80

For example, a dagger, Misericorde has 183 delay. It will give you ((183 - 180) / 256) * 6 + 5 = 5.0703125 = 5.0

Note: Only one place of decimals is counted. We can easily prove this by swinging them 10 or 20 times.

As a result, TP we earn will tell us what the weapon delay is as well. I guess you now get what I mean. The author finds weapon delay and iventually the effect of Sarashi and Suppanomimi by looking at the relationship between delay and TP.

Here's what he did for example. He was trying various combinations of weapons and find when he gets 5.0% TP back.

Two swings of Misericorde (Delay183)
Delay 366 (183) TP 5.0% for each hit.

With DW1, total delay 411 (205.5) gave him exactly 5.0% TP back.

e.g., Delay 411: Spark Bilbo (226) + Windurstrian Knife +1 (185)

So, what's the effect of DW1? It can be calculated by 366 / 411 = 0.89. Well, there are some (delay) numbers we cannot have like Delay 184 and 0.89 (-11%) is an approximate number. It is 0.90 (-10%) in fact as we already know.

Anyway, then he equipped Sarashi and found the delay that gave him 5.0% TP again. It was when total delay was 415 as you see his table. What's the effect of Sarashi, then? It is 411 / 415 = 0.99 (only -1%). If it enhances DW by 5%, it has to be 432.

Sorry, my English is not good enough to translate that website completely but I believe you get what he tried to do.

EDIT: Corrected some numbers. Sorry, it's 4.15 AM and I'm sleepy

[Cat]

Apple Pie's post is a bit confusing to me. And the link has a bit too much kanji for me to make heads or tails of it. I think I get the jist of what he is saying however the link I posted seems to show really posative results the sarashi out damages the masterbelt with +5 accuracy +5 attack i believe. I find this very impressive especially because even when sarashi was 4% less accuract and the attacks are going to hit for less on average. IT still gets enough attacks off to outdamage the mastbelt by a decent amount. I am very interested in some other parses comparing sarashi without sarashi if anyone has them because if its really only 1% faster thats a big disappointment.