Are Rangers really powerful?

[imac2much]

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
but there is no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that thfs can be considered the best hitters from 15-23 (where i am so far).

Not for 99% of the THF out there. We're considering that the THF is wearing full +rng acc gear, using SATA to complement ranged attacks. 99% of the THF out there at these levels just use sword, h2h or dagger, and only use ranged for pulling (plus usually not capped skill). There's no way a THF from 15-29 can outdamage a RNG unless the THF is using ranged attacks. Absolutely no way. Easy to prove; at these levels THF doesn't have Trick Attack so all the damage is being attributed to the THF, yet in a PT with a RNG and a THF, the RNG will ALWAYS get more aggro than the THF, guaranteed.

We're mainly talkinga bout THF to the full potential at low levels; unfortunately 99% of the THF out there at low levels don't even think about using bow or xbow.

[Narru]

Grrr.....I took the time to make a fairly large reply post to some of the statement here....but server crapped out on me when I went ahead and confirmed the reply, so lost everything :mad:

I will try to summarize quickly.

Originally posted by imac2much
As long as we're talking about theories, the point where RNG outshadow THF is a lot less than 49 IMO.

1) Let's take into account subjob. If THF subs anything OTHER than NIN, they will have to hold back for sure. So no /RNG also means no sharpshot and no passive acc up. That means at lvl 30 RNG has 25 more rng acc than THF just by job traits. Also they win out a bit more due to Sharpshot.

2) THF can equip most of the good rng acc gear at low levels, including Noct+1, rng acc rings, and archers, but they can't wear rng necklace. I use cockcharm but most RNG and THF don't, so I don't know if we can count this. So that's even less RNG ACC. Also, can THF use hawker+1s?

3) THF has C archery and markmanship (actually C- archery, C+ markmanship but there's no difference at those levels). At lvl 30 thats a difference of 7 rng acc, at 40 it's 9.

I think it's ridiculous to think that a THF will be doing similar damage as RNG in ranged attacks. They will miss significantly more, making the strength of their SATA WS every minute less remarkable.

With proper equipment, a 30 RNG will hit much more often than a THF/NIN, so much so it's not certain that SATA will make up for the difference, not even taking barrage into account.

THF/RNG can't go all out in a practical xp pt since he has no blink, unless he saves tp for the start of every battle for SATA WS. But that also implies that he's not SATA'ing or WS'ing every possible opportunity since he has to save it for the start of every battle, which puts even more variables in the equation.

So anyways, as long as we're talking about theoretical situations, I think lvl 30 is where the difference between RNG and THF gets more noticeable.

After replying last night, I kinda seemed odd to me how THF can be better damage than RNG until 49. Now that I think about it, 49 might be a little too high for that claim. Right now I would argue that levels 15-42ish THF damage is theoretically higher than every other class in the game. But at 42+, RNG damage is theoreticall highest.

Couple of points:

1) Ranger passive is +22 at level 30 (+10 +12), and I would agree with the rest of your point

2) Originally was hoping for the +10 boost from Peacock at 33, but thinking again, that might not be something we can use as a reasonable case. If THF goes /RNG, can utilize Beater's Earring and Gun Belt. But I will argue for THF/NIN. At 40, Jadged Gorget is similar to Ranger's Necklace. No THF's can't use Hawkers (RNG/BST), gotta stick to Archers.

3) Marksmanship ranking is indeed 7 difference. But not sure if 1 skill point = 1 ranged acc. Anyone have a formula? Think in the end, with traits and gear, a more reasonable number for the R.Acc. bonus a RNG has over a THF is around 31-33ish, not the 41 that you claim. If we count Peacock, that reduces advantage to 25ish more. I would also argue that if you're boosting R.Acc. that high at those low levels, even though RNG has 30+ more than THF, you're both still going to hit fairly well (again we're not talking about being cheap on gear here).

When I'm saying THF > RNG for damage here's what I envision (let's use level 33 as an example, because it's a nice crossroad) :

THF dual wields Archer Knives, and uses the same gun + bullets as the RNG (you pick, Miltary Gun or Pirate's Gun+1). Identical gear except RNG can use Ranger's Necklace and Hawkers while THF can use Feather Collar+1 and Archers.

Pull comes back, within the first 30 secs, THF performs 2 SATA's (one on main tank, other on trick buddy). Meanwhile between these the RNG is firing as fast as possible and uses Barrage every 5 mins. THF is also firing as fast as possible between SATA's. Whenever RNG hits 100% TP, Split Shot. Whenever THF hits 100% and SATA timer ready, SATA+VB +Distortion Renkei damage. It is from this scenario that I think THF > RNG damage levels 15-42ish.

Some obstacles in the way:

-34 RNG gets Serpintine Gun (+10 R.Acc, +10 R.Attk, RNG only), huge advantage at this level, but THF's also get VB at 33 so arguable.
-50 RNG gets Silver Bullets - no way for THF to be comparable in ranged attacks at this point, thus RNG > THF for sure 50+
- I really don't know what level THF and RNG start to be equal in damage. I guestimated 42ish, but could be +/- 2 levels.

Reminder this is just a summary, I don't feel like taking the hour to redo my fairly large reply I did earlier :mad:

Anyways, I concluded the reply with some things to think about when thinking about a THF and/or RNG in a PT:

- THF allows everyone in the PT to do more damage (hate management).
- RNG allows the THF to do more damage ( huge damage bow WS -> VB/DE = better renkei effect )
- When we argue if THF or RNG does more damage, gotta consider that the RNG needs the THF in order to pull more damage, whereas the THF only needs himself. In other words, take a 5 member PT (that doesn't have a THF nor a RNG in it). Add the RNG in the PT, parse the damage done by the RNG. Then replace the RNG with a THF and parse that damage. I think most of the people here would agree that the THF will log more damage than the RNG.
- What if the two are in the same PT and are trying to COMPETE with each other for title of "best damage dealer." That'll just make everything complicated. THF can SATA onto RNG to prevent him from firing as fast. RNG can wait til THF uses VB/DE, then renkei off that to boost his numbers. RNG can time his WS's to be at an odd multiple of the SATA 1 minute timer, making the THF wait. etc

Pretty sure I haven't covered everything I did originially, but don't want to waste this post again, so gonna submit.

[imac2much]

Great reply. A few points: most parsers log skillchain effect damage separately so that doesn't matter. JP guide says that 1 weapon skill = 0.9 accuracy. I'm not sure if it's the same with RNG ACC but it would make sense I think.

I really doubt THF is going to have peacock at those levels, and I'm sure Dan didn't have peacock at those levels (remember he was the first person talking about THF being high DD due to his parsings), so we can count that out.

You're right though, the 2 acc traits would be +22 not +25, my fault. Hm so at level 30 RNG will still have +22(job trait) +9 (hawker+1+rng necklace) +6 (skill) = 37 rng acc.

You're right that there is most likely a soft cap on ranged accuracy, and at those levels it might not be too hard to reach it. But I still think that 37 ranged accuracy points makes a significant difference. I also don't think it's possible for the THF to use sata EVERY minute; at times he will want to save it if monster is almost dead so he can do it at start of next one, or sometimes he will miss because monster will suddenly move.

Another thing: as long as we're talking about other variables such as the fact that THF can do more damage if he tricks onto a tank, let's take something else into account. (Since you bring up a good point that THF is less dependent on RNG than RNG is for THF) This point really only works in conventional PTs. However, conventional PTs are NEVER the best way to get XP. Even at low levels, multi RNG PTs rule. A 4 RNG + RDM + WHM PT or so is going to far outdamage a 4 THF + RDM + WHM PT even at low levels. In a multi - high DD PT, hate gets passed around between blinkers, so much so that SATA is going to be nigh impossible to hit correctly. A multi RNG PT is still going to get much more XP than a multi THF PT or a 3RNG+THF PT.

THF can't do optimal damage if he has hate. RNG can still do optimal damage if he has hate.

Until now I was acknowledging the fact that THF can potentially be stronger than RNG at low levels in a conventional PT (but I still think only for levels 15-29). But optimal XP will be made in a PT without THF.

Another thing: the more I think about it, the more I fail to see how THF can do good damage until 28 and 30... What +RNG ACC gear can they use? Noct+1 is at 30, archers at 28... all they have are some rings right? Whereas RNG will have necklace and acc up trait I (so +15 rng acc). I remember clearly that it was relatively hard to hit mobs before 2 archer knives since we didn't have much straight up RNG ACC gear, just some decent +AGI gear. A THF will have around 17-18 less rng acc at these levels and no sharpshot, so can they really hit as often as us RNG? I doubt it... but at these levels maybe SA is enough to make up the difference, but I don't think a THF is going to blow RNG out of the water even before 27. So maybe THF > RNG from 28-29... but that's a much narrower level range than the proposed 15-49.

[Aiarin]

All this talk of "perfect damage dealing situations" seems rather pointless to me. I actually think the averages sport a better case for Thief.

At least, I assume my experience is average.

A few key points about my experience in Kazham from 25-30.

I tanked. Not because we didn't have a Tank, but because before TA, even just SA just did that much.

Puller comes in.
I SA the mob for ~150
Paladin Provokes and heals, gets hate back
I SA the mob for ~150
Paladin shuffles his feet for another 20 seconds and waits for Provoke to refresh
He provokes, mob dies.

Was this smart? Hell no! It was the stupidest thing I've ever seen! But it's been about like that since Lv. 15, too. I could hold back my SA's and save the healer MP, but in Qufim and Kazham, things are usually so slow that it doesn't even matter. You end up pulling Toughs if that's all that's out there (I did ~200 on T/VT). Before SATA, if the Thief isn't doing damage, why is he there? So I did what I could to do damage, save for using Crossbows, since my Marksmanship isn't leveled at all.

In Kazham, actually, I did party with several Rangers, one group had two, in fact. Before 30 their Damage was good, but only as good as the Dark Knights' I grouped with, but with one major difference.

(This is Vs. IT Mandragoras in Yhoator)

Scythe: ~50
Arrow: ~55
Dagger: ~30

Gust Slash (Pfft): 50 damage
Piercing Shot: ~100 damage
Sneak Attack: ~130 damage
Shadow of Death(?): ~200 damage

Maybe the Drk had uber equipment, I dunno, maybe the Ranger was an idiot, but these are the numbers I saw. I doubt the Rangers were all that bad, one of them was the best puller I've played with (NA or JP, she was JP).

You'll notice of course, that I haven't been talking about 30 at all. I stopped about halfway through 30, I was able to pull off several successive SATAs rather easily (hence my earlier comment on the ease of SATA)... Though unfortunately that was usually SATA -> Ranger followed by SATA -> Tank. Just about as stupid as pre-30.

There is Barrage though, but that's a 5 minute ability, isn't it? It seems rather unfair to talk about how pulls can come so fast that the Thief can't get his double SATA in when Barrage can only be used once every three or so fights.

So this is why I agree that, at least 15-30, an Average Thief (No Leaping boots, no Emperor's Hairpin, no crossbow) can outdo an Average Ranger (no guns, peacock charm, etc). Perhaps favoring thieves even more as the quality of the player decreases (Ranger is much more dependant on equipment, a good Gun Ranger may have done more than me, I don't know, I haven't partied with any).

Of course, maybe I'm completely mistaken in thinking that I'm an average Thief? Thief is my highest class, so it's not like I have millions in equipment to spend on it. I'm 0/3 on Spipi, 0/1 on JEJ, 0/1 on the Bomb King and 0/2 on Doppleganger Gog (Course, those last two are deaths =p)

My equipment 25-30

Small Sword or Federation Knife
Mahogany Shield
Flame Boomerang (~35 Throwing Skill)
Garrison Tunica
Garrison Hose
(Bastok?) Gloves. (One of the +3 attack gloves, I forget which)
Compound Eye Circlet
Spike Necklace (-6 Mind Vs. Mandragora Sleep bites T_T)
2x Beetle Earring +1
2x Balance Ring
Bone Leggings

I haven't partied at all since I got my Noct +1, so I can't say how that changes things.

Just thought I'd throw out some information. I'm not saying Thf > Rng in any concrete way, but it can and does happen at both high and low skill levels. Hopefully when I go Ranger (which I plan to), I'll be able to outdo Thieves and Dark Knights of my level, but I really won't expect it since I'm probably gonna be pretty broke XD

[Cat]

At 15 you sneak attack snipper for like 80 damage? ranged attacks hit them for about 60 and we melee and close the gap a bit more and the ranged damage is very very consistant. Unless you can sneak attack faster than I can shoot 2 arrows and somehow I decide that I dont wana do weapon skills you wont outdamage me at 15... Unless you used a ranged weapon as well as a ranger. IF you can use it as well as a ranger you can do a little more damage were talking 40 more per fight... But if you hit for less (and you will) or miss more often (and you will) then the RNG will parse more dmg. Lets not overlook acid bolts at level 15 that rangers get that make everyone hit harder.

[truong]

Why are RNG and THF debating over this. As soon as THF get TA, THF and RNG compliment each other perfectly right up til 66 when DRK/THF takes over. RNG and THF 30-66 = best duo.

[Aiarin]

Originally posted by Cat
and the ranged damage is very very consistant.

I assume this was a typo, and you meant that ranged attacks are extremely inconsistant at Lv. 15 (due to their accuracy)? Especially in Valkurm, where just about everyone has accuracy problems.

60 damage on IT's at 15 is also a little high, I think. I may be wrong, I only grouped with one in Valkurm, and I don't remember how much damage he did, but to say that a Rng does as much damage at 15 and 30 is a little strange. Of course, often in Valkurm you do end up fighting some pretty low enemies for your level, I'm sure you can break 60 on a T/VT (when they hit), but if you want to use that number, you have to count Thf SA for 2x100+ (If you're fighting T/VT that means your puller is having trouble finding stuff to fight, so you can expect the Thief to be able to double his SA at the begining of the fight.)

Not much point in arguing about 15-20 though, far as I've seen, the most use for either Rng or Thf in Valkurm is to sub war for the additional Provoke (Assuming the average Bad-Valkurm-Party(tm))

-- edit --

Just noticed you're Elvaan. I've mostly partied with Hume and Mithra Rangers, so I don't know how much the Elvaan Strength helps. I don't think it's that much, but if it is, please refer to the first paragraph ~_^

[Cat]

I assume this was a typo, and you meant that ranged attacks are extremely inconsistant at Lv. 15 (due to their accuracy)? Especially in Valkurm, where just about everyone has accuracy problems.

RNG easily break 60 in dunes i was actually lowering the damage amount especially after an acid bolt and with a food effect on. And I picked a snipper and not a damselfly (which would take over 100 dmg)... you really shouldn't have posted if you've only partied with one ranger in dunes ever. I was talking about a ranger who has a decent bow or crossbow as well.

When I said ranger damage is consistant I meant you will see a ranger hit for 72 like 12 times in a row where as a melee will hit for 63 83 53 58 something like that. If you have accuracy problems with a ranger you need to update your gear because they are the most accurate job in the game.

--sorry missed that last part--
-- edit --
PS
I don't know why but yes strength affects ranged attack damage quite a bit. Even for marksmanship... Go figure I dont see why a stronger person would shoot harder than a weaker one with a gun. But I've tested this some and STR has quite a posative effect on damage although at level 15 its not a big deal. You are looking at a lot of accuracy bonuses though rangers necklace +5 rings+1 i think add +3 each one accuracy bonus job trait ,sharpshot, some agility gear, +5 from the arrow and probably a little more from a +1 bow.

(Assuming the average Bad-Valkurm-Party(tm))

Yes this is probably due to the high concentration of rank 1 players and players without SJ and simply players who don't really know how to play their job yet.

(This is Vs. IT Mandragoras in Yhoator)

Scythe: ~50
Arrow: ~55
Dagger: ~30

Gust Slash (Pfft): 50 damage
Piercing Shot: ~100 damage
Sneak Attack: ~130 damage
Shadow of Death(?): ~200 damage

Seriously you partied with a bad ranger or a ranger who was afraid of dealing damage and used cheap arrows. Some of the fastest exp I ever got was in Yhoator hitting chain 6 and 7 with a 2 rng 2nin 1smn/whm i forget the last member I think it was a bard or whm.. But at 200 exp per kill we didn't have a parser but Id use eagle eye and note my exp then check it again when it was 1hr till ready exp there was 8-10k an hour and we got 9 levels in one party. from 28-37 then the ninjas disbanded cuz it was their SJ for 75 war not all of it was in elshimo jungles but till 32 or 33 it was and by the end out gear was outdated and we were still getting those chains on ITs

[sylvanas]

Originally posted by imac2much
Off topic: Sylvy wanna PT your offensive WHM with my offensive PLD? >:O I'm almost done getting all my gear.. I'm making a PLD/NIN with company sword (d56 with full party) + joyeuse, opti hat, peacock charm, byrnie, sniper + ruby, fenrir + assault, amemit+1, life belt, and other miscellaneous stuff. I'm pretty sure I can be on par with a lot of other melees with this setup (obviously not RNG). I won't be a tank but at least I'll be able to stay alive if I do get aggro with utsusemi, sentinel, cures, and flash. Let's do it!!

XD id love to try it, but i cant afford all the fancy melee stuff for whm while playing rng at the same time E:

with the right gear im thinking pld is definitely a fearsome melee too, its just unorthodox so people dont do it D:

[Spider-Dan]

I wasn't the one talking about THF/RNG; if you want max damage from THF in the low 30s, you should probably sub WAR, though I was using /NIN myself. Ranged attacks from THF are too inconsistent to rely on for damage, though in hindsight if I had Acid Bolts available to THF back then, it would have helped damage output even more.

As far as me not partying with a "good" RNG, the RNG I am primarily comparing my THF to is my own. My RNG had noticeably better gear than my THF did (THF was my first job), and my damage lead per party as THF was, on average, larger than it was as RNG in the same levels. Skill difference is therefore eliminated as a factor; the same person was behind the controls for both.

imac, you say that if THF subs anything but NIN, they would have to hold back; why would they? Unless you are talking about pre-30...

[Cat]

As far as me not partying with a "good" RNG, the RNG I am primarily comparing my THF to is my own. My RNG had noticeably better gear than my THF did (THF was my first job), and my damage lead per party as THF was, on average, larger than it was as RNG in the same levels. Skill difference is therefore eliminated as a factor; the same person was behind the controls for both.

I'm a bit curious what you say is noticeably better gear since this is the third time you've mentioned it without giving any examples.

And skill difference is a factor... One person could be a great THF and a horrible ranger. Theres more to it than just pressing Ctrl+D.

[Kronosan]

you know what?

Ranger is so great

[Jaggywaggy]

I have not much else to add vs ranger vs thief...As my thief there is no other job I'd rather be partners with than rng starting the SCs.

However I can vouch for those numbers cat mentioned for rng. My rng is currently 25, I was just xping it today in the jungle infact. Well back in dunes I had LL,ranger necklance, hunter bow-power bow+1, most recent arrows etc. I hit for 40+ in dunes on incs and back then I didn't use acid bolts which I started using at 21. So I'd imagine 60 is definitely possible.

And 55 really isn't a great number for rng in the jungle, and 100 piercing? Why was the rng using piercing and not flaming vs mandies. Carried a good habit against crabs and pugs, and it's now a bad habit vs mandies I suppose.

Here are the numbers I saw and my equips that gave agi,rng attk,rng acc. 2 beetle+1 rings, ranger necklance, powerbow+1, fang(15dmg/5acc) and silver arrows(19dmg),LL,emperor hairpin,nomad mantle, And I use all kinds of bolts too at the start of battles if bow tp is low going into the start, venom and acid(s). The rest was just normal stuff. And I used mithkabobs of course.

I was a lvl 25 rng during this and I'd say my average bow hit without acid bolts was about 60. If I pumped 1-2 acids in I'd hit for 70-80, and sometimes criticals around 90 but not often. This was on inc mandies and my best flaming arrow vs an inc tough was for 160+ fire SC with just over 200% tp. There were no thieves in the group but this is merely to show better numbers than 55s and 100 piercings. My average flaming arrow was about 130 I'd guess. And before disbanding I did a 420 EES.

I examined other rangers in the area however and they were gimp: No pin,LL,no +1 beetle rings, etc. It's pretty hard to find a dependable ranger with the better equips pre 30 just like it is for thf.

Those should be pretty decent numbers to base rng archery damage off for lvl 25 with the skill cap of 78. Given I had maybe a tiny bit of room for improvement, but not that much if any. And these numbers are still fresh in my memory too. -Enjoy-

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
imac, you say that if THF subs anything but NIN, they would have to hold back; why would they? Unless you are talking about pre-30...

I did mean pre-30. Remember, this is all theoretical to me, I have absolutely nothing to back me up cuz I didn't parse anything at low levels... but I gave a few reasons why I *think* RNG would be more damaging than THF post 30.

I honestly don't see how a THF can outdamage *without* using ranged attacks.... I'm not doubting your integrity per se, but it's just hard for me to believe. My ranged shots did 80-100 a hit even back then from what I recall; there's no way dagger can keep up with that kind of damage, even with the SATA every minute. SATA every minute would probably be 250 damage, 400 with WS, yet RNG will be doing that much in just a few shots.

As Cayne says, this is easy to test. Just go to one of the early promyvions like dem, mea, holla, and go to second or third floor for some VT/IT's and parse it.

If we were talking about ranged attacks then maybe THF could be damaging... I just don't see how a THF/WAR or /NIN with just pure dagger or sword can outdamage a RNG even at low levels. THFs *very* rarely get aggro even before 30 (without trick attack), yet RNG get aggro all the time. If we're talking about post 30, the addition of trick attack won't outdamage the advantage RNG has from dual hawkers, noct+1, barrage, etc. Just my two cents.

[greysenn]

I honestly don't see how a THF can outdamage *without* using ranged attacks.... I'm not doubting your integrity per se, but it's just hard for me to believe. My ranged shots did 80-100 a hit even back then from what I recall; there's no way dagger can keep up with that kind of damage, even with the SATA every minute. SATA every minute would probably be 250 damage, 400 with WS, yet RNG will be doing that much in just a few shots

You're pretending thf Melee is nonexistant, and it's not. If you're doing 80-100 per shot, thf is doing 35-50 per set of swings in a shorter time period. Add 50 to 100 to your SA/TA numbers for a good thf. If the fight only lasts 45 seconds, it's very easy to get outdamaged in a standard group.

Will a group of rangers pwn a group of thieves? Yes. This is standard group setup we're talking though, which I actually finds pretty enjoyable despite sometimes not being the fastest way to get xp.