Are Rangers really powerful?

[Narru]

God Cat, do you even read posts?

Let me take the time to point out ONE of your many mistakes (as there are too many to point out, I don't feel like it, nor want to take the time to).

We all state "Thieves do more damage than Rangers levels 15-45"

You reply with something of the nature "Omg I don't believe what you're trying to say!! Here's a log parse of a couple of fights when I was level 71 to disprove your statement... See, Rangers do more damage than Thieves at level 71"

See something odd there? :angel:

[truong]

Really, THF vs RNG at lower levels shouldn't even matter. THF simply do more USEFUL damage. USEFUL meaning big burst damage. Simply put, SA and TA after 30 simply rapes lower level mobs. This debate strangely reminds me of the MNK vs DRK debate. On one hand, you got a job that can slap on big damage in the shortest amount of time, thus killing mobs fast vs someone who does consistent (albeit HIGH in RNG case) damage.

Let's take crawlers in crawlers nest at level 30+ for instance. Sure, a RNG would most likely catch up and beat the THF if the battle lasted say, more than 1 minute. But this is irrelevent. Seeing as a smart THF would start the battle with SA/TA for big damage, followed by another big SA/TA (cuz the THF timed his cooldown). This right here would most likely do half of the crawlers HP in about 15 seconds. It simply doesn't matter what a RNG could do, because no RNG, outside of stupid ones who start the fight with something rediculous like solo WS, or Barrage could take half the mob's HP without hurting the mage's mp. In 15 seconds, you've already took off 50% of the HP, another minute and SA/TA would be available for SC. But by then, the mob would already be near dead, so let the BLM nuke it to death. Next battle comes, the THF repeats. SA/TA as soon as battle starts, then immediately go into SA/TA Viper Bite. This = dead mob. It just doesn't matter what a RNG could do in that short time. The fact remains, THF kills shit fastest, because at those levels, the mobs just don't have a lot of HP.

So yes, in short, RNG do more than THF shot for shot. But SC and properly timed SA/TA more than makes up for it. The mob is dead, and that's all that matters. Keep in mind, this is all between levels 15 to 40+.

[Narru]

By the way Cat, you're not imagining the full potential of the game. When you're thinking Rng > Thf, you are probably falling into the trap of thinking how MOST people play their Thieves (aka using daggers only and using SATA).

We're talking about pushing the limit of what each class can/cannot do at its full potential. We're talking about breaking all the caps imagined by the developers, and coming up with tricks to surpass all of them. We're talking about using all the resources available to you in order to achieve a min or a max possible in this game.

Here's a good example of "levels of thought" - I'll bet you if we had a contest for each of us to:

Design The Best Damage Dealing WHM

the tricks and loopholes most of us here could come up with I don't think you'll be able to fathom for a while. It's just THAT much of a difference (judging from your posts, sorry to say).

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Cat
There is a parsing of 152 fights when I was level 71 fighting non flying mobs...

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it.

Like I thought, you didn't even read my original post. You just saw "THF outdamage RNG" and went ballistic.

Reading is fundamental.

I expect that now you will post the standard "who cares about low levels????" comment, even though your failure to read my post (and its context) was your own damned fault.

[imac2much]

Cayne calm down man -_- we're talking about low-mid levels... it's obvious RNG > all DD at high levels.

As long as we're talking about theories, the point where RNG outshadow THF is a lot less than 49 IMO.

1) Let's take into account subjob. If THF subs anything OTHER than NIN, they will have to hold back for sure. So no /RNG also means no sharpshot and no passive acc up. That means at lvl 30 RNG has 25 more rng acc than THF just by job traits. Also they win out a bit more due to Sharpshot.

2) THF can equip most of the good rng acc gear at low levels, including Noct+1, rng acc rings, and archers, but they can't wear rng necklace. I use cockcharm but most RNG and THF don't, so I don't know if we can count this. So that's even less RNG ACC. Also, can THF use hawker+1s?

3) THF has C archery and markmanship (actually C- archery, C+ markmanship but there's no difference at those levels). At lvl 30 thats a difference of 7 rng acc, at 40 it's 9.

So right off the bat, 30 RNG has 25 (job traits) + 9 (rng necklace + 2 hawker+1) + 7 (skill difference) = 41 more RNG ACC than a 30 THF. Oh, and they don't have rapid shot, barrage, and sharpshot. I think it's ridiculous to think that a THF will be doing similar damage as RNG in ranged attacks. They will miss significantly more, making the strength of their SATA WS every minute less remarkable.

I don't doubt Dan if he says his THF did the most damage in his PTs. But it's also highly likely he didn't play with a GOOD RNG (in both skill and equipment). With proper equipment, a 30 RNG will hit much more often than a THF/NIN, so much so it's not certain that SATA will make up for the difference, not even taking barrage into account.

If we're talking about THF/RNG, then yes he has more RNG acc + sharpshot, but we're talking about practical xp pt. THF/RNG can't go all out in a practical xp pt since he has no blink, unless he saves tp for the start of every battle for SATA WS. But that also implies that he's not SATA'ing or WS'ing every possible opportunity since he has to save it for the start of every battle, which puts even more variables in the equation.

So anyways, as long as we're talking about theoretical situations, I think lvl 30 is where the difference between RNG and THF gets more noticeable. But I care more about the endgame than mid level so I'm not too inclined to test and find out hehe.

[Cat]

Sorry I just got pissed because its simply not true. Ive never been outdamaged by a thf in a party Ive played a thf through those levels and I couldn't out damage my rng if i had to. Ive played RNG through those levels... the point i was trying to make with the parse and the video was a party with a thf will run slower xp/hr than a ranger i guess i ddi a bad job of explaining it.

A multi ranger party can easily pull 10k an hour and ther is no room for a thf in it... theres a reason thf have trouble getting invites think about it. No from 15-45 thf don't out damage a rng and Ill goto emptyness with this thf to prove it.

[Cat]

Sorry I just got pissed because its simply not true. Ive never been outdamaged by a thf in a party Ive played a thf through those levels and I couldn't out damage my rng if i had to. Ive played RNG through those levels... the point i was trying to make with the parse and the video was a party with a thf will run slower xp/hr than a ranger i guess i ddi a bad job of explaining it.

A multi ranger party can easily pull 10k an hour and ther is no room for a thf in it... theres a reason thf have trouble getting invites think about it. No from 15-45 thf don't out damage a rng and Ill goto emptyness with this thf to prove it. I'll make a pt of 6 and he makes a pt of 6 and we can see which kills the same mob faster.

[Cat]

Sorry I just got pissed because its simply not true. Ive never been outdamaged by a thf in a party Ive played a thf through those levels and I couldn't out damage my rng if i had to. Ive played RNG through those levels... the point i was trying to make with the parse and the video was a party with a thf will run slower xp/hr than a ranger i guess i ddi a bad job of explaining it.

A multi ranger party can easily pull 10k an hour and ther is no room for a thf in it... theres a reason thf have trouble getting invites think about it. No from 15-45 thf don't out damage a rng and Ill goto emptyness with this thf to prove it. I'll make a pt of 6 and he makes a pt of 6 and we can see which kills the same mob faster. Because my pt is gonna have 5 rng and a healer and juggle utsusemi. While he will be wating valuable slots on trick dummies and tanks

[sylvanas]

Originally posted by Narru
Design The Best Damage Dealing WHM

if i wasnt playing ranger id be doing this right now. it would be devastating >:D not talking upper class melee damage like a rng or a drk obviously, but depending on mob type i bet i could outdamage the majority of melees, base str is already 66 with a smn sub plus ~800 (my guess with full melee gear) mp to spare D:

anyways, cayne youre a dear but take your ritalin /point@triple post

[Cat]

Sorry about multi posting >.< bad internet I didn't mean to do that.. seriously sorry... eeew supprised the Board let me do that

[Cat]

yea I'm loosing it sylvy :dead: I've just never heard someone make such an outrageous claim and of course he isn't willing to put any money on it...

[Cat]

You reply with something of the nature "Omg I don't believe what you're trying to say!! Here's a log parse of a couple of fights when I was level 71 to disprove your statement... See, Rangers do more damage than Thieves at level 71"

No I'm showing the basic flow of a battle wiht multiple rangers I'm sure this thf hasn't seen anything like it before I'd be glad to AIM anyone this video yes its past the levels we are tallking about but the basic flow of the fight is the same but the rng do less dmg and the mob have less hp so its a nominal difference.

AIM: Asics777 if u cant DL the vid ill share it on there

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by Cat
yea I'm loosing it sylvy :dead: I've just never heard someone make such an outrageous claim and of course he isn't willing to put any money on it...

its not an outrageous claim! you are just going insane, because we are saying low lvl thfs are good DD's. stop taking this video game so personal.

i've been lvl'ing drk lately, like a machine. was at lvl 10 last thursday - cracked 23 last night.

all of my pt's since 15 had either a rng or thf or both. you are not giving enough credit to sneak attack at low lvls. it just crushes mobs. not that rangers don't do good damage, its just that SA is that good. and when you're fighting crabs and its a struggle to finish them - sneak attack always ends the fight.

now, saying that, i've preferred having a ranger. basically because flaming arrow -> dark harvest makes me a happy drk. but there is no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that thfs can be considered the best hitters from 15-23 (where i am so far).

so relax. stop being an irate internet user.

[Cat]

its not an outrageous claim! you are just going insane, because we are saying low lvl thfs are good DD's. stop taking this video game so personal.

Around level 40 Sneak attack does decent damage its not even that impressive really at low levels you see numbers like 400ish with a weapon skill for barrage you see numbers like 800 just as often if u add up the naturally high rng damage and faster tp gain because most rangers can get 2 or 3 weapon skills off per fight and additional accuracy bonus the rng has over the thf the thf will not compare. I never said thf didn't do decent dmg from 15-45 i just said they didn't do the most and I said they weren't to be considered a DD job like BLM DRK and RNG.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by sylvanas
[B]if i wasnt playing ranger id be doing this right now. it would be devastating >:D not talking upper class melee damage like a rng or a drk obviously, but depending on mob type i bet i could outdamage the majority of melees, base str is already 66 with a smn sub plus ~800 (my guess with full melee gear) mp to spare D:

Off topic: Sylvy wanna PT your offensive WHM with my offensive PLD? >:O I'm almost done getting all my gear.. I'm making a PLD/NIN with company sword (d56 with full party) + joyeuse, opti hat, peacock charm, byrnie, sniper + ruby, fenrir + assault, amemit+1, life belt, and other miscellaneous stuff. I'm pretty sure I can be on par with a lot of other melees with this setup (obviously not RNG). I won't be a tank but at least I'll be able to stay alive if I do get aggro with utsusemi, sentinel, cures, and flash. Let's do it!!